Faiths and Supplication

[Elenthis]

This suggestion requires preface. Also, the description of my beliefs below is in general, and does not include special RPs like Paladins, and perhaps also not priests.

I believe that the faith-level "initiate" should be used for those characters who have shown not only an interest, but a basic understanding of the faith they wish to be a part of. These characters should go through the learning and questing process, and understand the dogma, and maybe a bit of the history of their faith. I have seen the faithing process from my own, to many...manymanymany others, and I love that it's unique to both the faith and the FM. It provides a continual flow of RP that morphs and grows with each character, but one thing I've seen that I think may sometimes be done...wrong-ish...is this idea that faithing should take a long time for the sake of taking a long time. If you have a "long time"'s worth of RP, then I support an in-depth RP thick with tasks, and learning and so on. But padding the faithing process by just...waiting for time to pass seems unnecessary. (while not something I've seen for a while, worth stating due to the coming suggestion)

So...the suggestion:

I think supplication for Recall and Resurrection should be available to the initiate-level in a faith. This represents someone begging for a new life, or to intervene and transport them to safety. I do not think supplication for items should come at this level. I believe the Acolyte level should open up the ability to supplicate all items. I think that becoming an initiate should be -relatively- easy and should take a number of hours of RP. (actual lapsed time depending on interaction, of course). And while an initiate does get to wear the symbol, I don't think it likely that a deity would plop down some powerful relics as soon as they gain a bit of favor.

There's a small problem with this: Uncoded deities. I understand they are bound to a coded faith, and kept at initiate. I don't suggest this changes. I suggest instead, that if someone is capable enough to be approved to follow an uncoded, that they be allowed to apply for 2 free renames INSTEAD of supplicating objects from a faith to which they only belong in code.

Now...I know some of these ideas and suggestion(s) could be a bit controversial, and due to my inexperience outside of my own main character, may even be based on some misunderstanding, so correct me as you will, and input your own ideas!

~Jeff.

[Harroghty]

While I don't necessarily disagree on the subject of supplication, I don't see the problems stemming from the current situation. There are few initiates running around with all of their faith's supplicated objects.

Also, I fear that this would diminish interest in faith role-play significantly because I don't believe that the role-play is enough for the majority of people to remain interested.

[Elenthis]

Hmm...I'll have to give that some thought. In my mind, it would increase the desire for faith RP. I see it like this:

Getting to initiate should be relatively easy. Initiate represents a basic understand of the faith, who's in the faith, and the ability to RP and understand and generally be productive.

Acolytes should be able to understand the more complex dogma, and have a better grasp of a faith's history, as well as having proven themselves to some degree.

Bu sort of...moving everything up a half-notch, we encourage people to log in more, play more, and RP more within their faith (and represent them better) with the promise of more rewards as they progress within the faith. In other words...as it stands now, once you get your symbol, there is little no coded benefit from then on. Some people seem to feel like getting the symbol is the end of the journey instead of the beginning! I think this small step MIGHT encourage a better environment for longer-term RP.

Just 2 cents. I don't consider the current system 'broken' by any stretch.

Jeff

[Harroghty]

I think that I have become cynical over the years through watching faith RP in which many players have no enthusiasm for the details of their dogma. I am not sure that the lure of objects which are in many cases redundant to loot offered elsewhere is enough to entice them to change their stripes.

[Hrosskell]

The current "power structure" model of faith puts a strong emphasis on evangelical/flock-building practices. Faith levels as they stand represent how much work you put in at a community level, i.e. hosting events, teaching outsiders, helping the young, and encourages uniformity as determined by those higher in power than you. There is less reward for quiet, unique, or individual (let alone heretical) worship and this in effect closes avenues of roleplay, making religion a less attractive channel for those seeking to creatively express themselves than other social/political paths and remain equal to their peers. I think that further stamping down on those who would deny themselves the rewards of higher favor tiers (which can already be used to gate quests, trainers, shops, etc.) would be an injustice to the creative spirit of roleplaying and FK in particular.

[hasryn]

I Concur with the point of this post truly. The only hindrance I could really see to it is. Is that FM's be they simple players in the role or the deity running it from up above. Are sometimes busy with IRL and the discrepency of time zone with some people of each faith will make it hard to prove and show your zeal for your religious path. Some people put in a long time and never get above initiate due to the not seeing the fm and letting them see that this guy really knows his stuff! I would agree restricting the items a bit as more open as you get higher in the faith, but then also earning the churches trust and allowing the people to become a more integral part of said faiths should also be ab it easier to obtain. Not just handed to them mind you nor going with favoritism. But having some clear cut guidelines that we could all follow that could be like this guy knows his stuff. Rps accordingly and should be allowed one step closer to the inner cloister. Perhaps even allowing the imms to pass word along about said persons to the fm. Other fm's or higher ups in the faith sponsoring them to the next level. But aye I agree with you man!

I do disagree with restricting supplicate reincarnate because sometimes you got the favor and no one is around to bring your dingy butt back to and that truly does suck!

[Elenthis]

I absolutely don't think sup reincarnate or sup recall should be restricted in any way. Some great points have been made on both sides, and what it -may- come down to is what Harroghty said. I just think every tool and reminder should be available, and every path should have purpose. I think that by restricting sup. items to Acolyte, we would be encouraging the continued expansion and participation of the character into an even longer RP. Further, by spreading out the coded rewards, I think we broaden the whole experience. As it stands, you make initiate and get your symbol, and thats about 100% of the coded advantage all the way up until FM. I look at it like levels. When you hit level 10, you're kind of a "Real character" training wheels off. But you still have a LONG way to go, with many, many little bonuses along the way until you hit what we'll call 'potential'.
I look at faiths the same way. Fortunately for me, my faith RP has always been stable, and rewarding in thanks to some REALLY GREAT FM's over the last decade.

I hope this helps to at least explain where I'm coming from with this suggestion. It's one of those..."I know it ain't broke, but..."

[Xotaes]

As a faith newbie, er initiate of Mystra, the last thing on my mind is supplicating for items - I've already hit loved favor and then a few hours later spent a good chunk of it on a supplicate recall. I value my life more than begging Mystra for a few toys. About the only concern I have is that, correct me if I'm wrong (I havn't lost mine to a badly placed death yet) the symbols are the first supplicated object? If you segregate item supplication by faith rank, those should probably be available to initiates - holy symbols are probably the most important RP prop, being an obvious IC marker of affiliation, and being able to obtain a replacement in case of disaster is probably a good thing.

[Harroghty]

Xotaes, symbols come only from the Power or the faith manager. In case of a disaster then you need to approach one of those in person or in prayer. Really though, I cannot remember losing a symbol in about 8 years of being a faith member? It's fairly rare.

[hasryn]

Indeed! Everyone treats holy symbols with respect even opposing faiths. Now if a faith enemy gets there hands on yours then that's one of those rare occasions where it happens. Or only if you straight up lose your body after a death. Other than that we all pretty much will bust our butts to keep it from happening!

[dolifer]

So I'm curious as to whether general opinion has changed at all on this topic since it was first suggested...

I'm of an opinion very similar to Elenthis's here, and during my admittedly short time on FK I've just seen so many people who join a faith and, like, a RL week later, they're sporting all the gifts their god has to give, and that's with having a very, vary basic understanding of the faith at all.

In my personal experience so far, I just can't help but have the feeling that many players choose to follow a deity only for the items/domain spells the faith offers, but being part of a faith can and should be so much more. I'm very much in favor of restricting supplicated items to a minimum acolyte rank, though perhaps the third or even second items could be restricted to higher levels.

I dunno... It just kind of feels disappointing to see items which should have some of the highest significance in the game being grabbed up a few hours or days after faithing. Plus, this could encourage players to become more familiar and grow to actually care about the faith their char is in.

[Benorf]

I am very much against restricting supplicated items for numerous reasons.

First off, I believe that the faith list should read like a pyramid. Lots of initiates, fewer acolytes, a handful of prelates, up to three members of the inner circle, and then the FM. Having faiths set up like this would result in a lot of characters that just aren't allowed to get their faith items. This would be especially problematic for faiths like mine. Yondalla has a grand total of 6 players right now, that are active.

Second, I think it's a gross exaggeration to say that people have their faith items a few hours after being faithed. I myself tend to go crazy and love grinding to get my favor up. I've gotten a little bit more mellow about it as I've played. But my Kelemvorite was faithed right when I was super gung-ho about getting items and wasn't much about the RP. It took me over a week to get my items, and I played a lot, and I personally think that Kelemvorites have it the *easiest* to get favor.

And thirdly, some people just aren't going to be as cut-and-dry faithful as we may want. When it comes to the faiths of the Mud, I usually make a character with zero understanding of what it means to be a follower of the deity. I love to read and research about religion, so I tend to get immersed in the history and read a *lot* about my chosen faiths. I realize that not everyone is like that. For some people, being faithful is just about upholding the key ideals, and not living your life to be a physical embodiment of the faith.

This applies in real life, too. Most people who are religious aren't insanely zealous about their beliefs. They just live their lives. They know a lot about it, but they don't feel like it's necessary to talk about it all the time. And that's absolutely okay, and I think it should be that way here, too.

[Harroghty]

I tend to agree with Benorf's idea that this will simply precipitate more (too?) rapid promotions within the faith, or leave a lot of people out of the benefit of these objects.

The best remedy, I believe, is through role-play and players.

[Yemin]

I'm waaay, waaay on the other side of the fence from everyone as usual Man it gets lonely overhere sometimes.

Anyway, I've been pondering about something related to this topic for some time and frankly I think the game is fairly imbalanced as far as faith vs nonfaith is concerned. If people would, let me know if I've missed out on anything crucial but as far as I can see this is how the current environment is.

Being faith nets you:
Powerful unique items.
access to special parts of temples / areas for gear and training.
Special roleplay which minimally/sometimes leads to more IM attention.
Usually the Backing of a somewhat organized group of individuals
Semi-restricted from specific areas/zones
recalls that work even in no-recall areas
resurrection with no xp cost.

Nonfaithed nets you:
...
Honestly can't think of any real advantages to remain lacking a faith excluding freer roleplay and roleplay is a big big area and allows so much variation that I find its hard to quantify into advantage / disadvantage lists.

All this means that for the most part, religion has become a stepping stone of the things to do on FK. Make a character, grind, get some roleplay in, join a faith, reach level 50.

I've not a character in every faith of course, but for the faithed characters I do have, I don't even see the restrictions I have on any of them as even noticeable. I can infact, given the variable abilities of each class, circumvent almost all the restrictions i listed above. Or find supposedly unique teachers elsewhere in game, hence why i marked them as semi.

Don't get me wrong. I don't really want to see any of those things listed above restricted even further or removed. I would however like to see something like nonfaithed characters getting to use a combination of platinum and glory points to pay a fey / demon / devil to enchant their weapons / armor up to +2 per piece or something like that. A particularly powerful Nymph who'll recall you to a specific forest as long as your not in an urban center. The cost being to give her a number of troll hides or the leavings of some enemy creature that already exists in game. We've already got a bunch to choose from.

These are just prelim thoughts but yeah. I think the whole faith route was initially meant to be optional and granted no one is forcing anyone to faith their characters but the advantages seem to be incredible over not doing so.

I personally applaud all the characters I see without a faith well into their 6th month of play or beyond

[Dranso]

In my opinion the current system for supplications works for all coded deities. Changing this may work great for certain faiths (those with large numbers) but leave others out to dry (those with low numbers and those that accept all alignments).

I see favor and faith level as being separate. Favor as how your god sees you as an individual and faith level as how your god/FM sees you as a member of their community.

[Yemin]

In my opinion the current system for supplications works for all coded deities. Changing this may work great for certain faiths (those with large numbers) but leave others out to dry (those with low numbers and those that accept all alignments).

I see favor and faith level as being separate. Favor as how your god sees you as an individual and faith level as how your god/FM sees you as a member of their community.

Also, I wanted to point out that in the instance where gods show favor, its not exactly uncommon to see them doing so to people on the fringes of their organized churches or in some cases, those completely opposed to them.

e.g.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Farideh

[Maetha]

I'll be succinct in that- as a player of a non-coded deity cleric, I don't feel the standard benefits of faithing- and the "punishments" of being non-faithed are very severe. I don't need the supplication benefits- even if they are nice- because most of the time I can at least ask SOMEONE to retrieve my corpse or come help me out of a crappy situation. Frankly, this whole thing feels like an argument against mechanics and roleplay intertwining in ways- so I'll try to break down my thoughts on the matter.

1. Faith relics really -should- be held back, ICly, to more 'advanced' (Whether in actual Deity like- not some number- or rank) faith members, but I imagine most people don't really -use- their faith objects all that much. I've only seen Claws of Malar have any real use, so I can't make a statement as to how many people actively grind for faith relics.

2. If you're worried about any changes affecting the roleplaying negatively, perhaps you ought to- instead of looking at the mechanics- look at your playerbase. I understand that since FK is small in scope and has only a few regulars that come back time and time again- so most changes will be based around the returning PCs.

3. On the subject of differing times and being unable to make time to do RPs with FMs and fellow faiths- there's not much that can be done outside of organized activities and what you yourself can do as a player (Encouraging people to join the faith as well through RP, spreading "the word", etc.)

4. As a completely biased party, the idea of a free rename for non-coded followers is an attractive one- perhaps earned by frequent and well-done RP, to the point where it's less a reward for grinding and more a reward in the sense "We're glad you play the deity you applied for -well.-" But that's, again, me being very biased.

SANKYUU, everyone have a good day!

[dolifer]

Thanks for the replies!

From an OOC standpoint I can see the worries here, and I guess that's just me being too into the IC side of things as usual. Speaking purely ICly, I think most would agree that the gods generally don't actively play a role in most worshipers' lives, let alone give them all these divine gifts and other perks. There's also the problem, I think, regarding the ease with which many faiths can gain favor, but that's for another topic, I suppose.

I definitely feel like faith as it stands is used less for RP purposes and more for the benefits of items/recalls and so on, and maybe it's because I've found a faith that I really identify with IRL and really care about, but likely not all faiths are like that for most people and it really is just a what-can-I-get-out-of-this sort of thing, and that's totally okay.

There's no need to fix what isn't broken, right? It sounds like most people are happy with the current system and that's all that matters!

Thanks again!

[Ungtar]

I like the idea of being unfaithed mostly because Greenwood's pantheon is kind of two dimensional. I've also never liked the way he treated the nature deities.

For warriors, thieves, and even mages ... I'm surprised you don't see more unfaithed. Or maybe you do and I just don't notice them.

Ultimately, in this game anyway, the priests are just too well done for me to pass them up. They are my favorites. And if you want to progress as a priest, you've got to pick something out of Greenwood's pantheon.