Disintegrate etc in PvP

[Duranamir]

I think i remember that certain spells that cause instant death should not be used in a stun or spar Pvp encounter, for example Phantasmal killer, finger of death and howl of the banshee.

What i am unclear about is whether disintegrate is one of these, or does it just do damage and therefore will not actually kill while in stun mode ?

Any clarification gratefully received.

Duranamir

[Algon]

While using instakill spells in a spar seems to take away the point of sparring, I am not sure I have ever seen where it "should" not be used. Disintegrate is not an instakill spell though, it can be very damaging and can certainly kill if it hits right. In cases like this, it should be something worked out ICly with the other person before the sparring begins...at least that is my thoughts on the matter.

[Ungtar]

I know you're probably looking for some official clarification, but in a spar where I'm just playing around with a friend, or a roleplay situation where both of us want to have interesting combat roleplay but yet not suffer the pains of having to be revived by our friends ... then I'd be irritated if someone used an instadeath spell on me if we'd already agreed it was going to be stun.

So yeah, I wouldn't use it if I were you. Unless, of course, it's part of some complex trickery that your character would do.

[Tyeslan]

As per the PVP help file all spells are allowed in PK/PVP situations. User discretion, though time stop is limited use. Regard your help files.

[Yemin]

Actually, tested and true, phantasmal killer at the very least stunns the target if your in stun mode and they save their fail.
Not sure about the other two.

So my input is.... have fun?

[Mele]

Just a note though, regardless of the PVP rules there are always IC consequences and I feel bad for the dude who phant killers someone from a room away if their victim's deity notes it.

[Yemin]

Meh, Insta-death is the hallmark of D20 games = wizard + orc = one hitkill :p
Save or die spells is what adds to the spice of life in dnd

[Harroghty]

Sure, but consider the impact on another player if you stroll in, attack, and cast a deadly spell like that.

The bottom line with these spells is that they must be used judiciously. You are going to shock the other player if you use one and someone's feelings will likely be injured. Therefore, be certain that you have at least followed all of the PvP rules in order to bring that other player along with you. No one is saying that bad things cannot happen to people, but players should be decent to one another. Like any other event in PvP, OOC understanding is key (but OOC agreement is not necessarily required).

[Lylena]

Sure, but consider the impact on another player if you stroll in, attack, and cast a deadly spell like that.

The bottom line with these spells is that they must be used judiciously. You are going to shock the other player if you use one and someone's feelings will likely be injured.

I will admit, I'm a sore player when an insta kill spell is used. It might be the Tempuran in me screaming in frustration at not having a chance, but I've always OOCly enjoyed the sport of PvP. I understand the difference of spars and real PvP, but the main difference is in one you die and the other you don't. I get that robbed feeling if it's a matter of starting and then suddenly a swirl of colors and I'm sitting by myself to seethe.

I haven't voiced it, however, because I understand the other end of "Why have the spell if I won't be using it?" and I have to calm myself down, or typically take a step back for a moment to realize it's just a game and it's even sillier that I'm getting upset that they used the tools available to them.

I'm personally torn on their use, as I dislike them used in PvP situations (because they cut everything short). But again, they're tools for the wizard to use. Doesn't make sense to restrict that.

[Yemin]

Agreed, To be honest my first mud which I played and appreciated for 6 years or so taught me a very valuable lesson in not getting offended if you die to what looks like unfair circumstances. FK is built on a *fairly* balanced system for the most part. (dnd 3.5e) and though there are some issues argued back and forth with dnd, like I said above save or die isn't all that different from someone walking in and critting 3 of their 5 attacks with a great axe / scythe / pick. if your playing a low HD class.

Also, there are ways of significantly increasing your chances to save against things like phantasmal killer, whale of the banshee and so on that I've noticed in the game... and I'm relatively a newbie so.

I guess my suggestion is that in FK there is usually a way to achieve decent defenses against most aggressive tactics and herein lies a fairly good opportunity to spark some tactics orientated roleplay I think

[Aysa]

(And I'm posting this shortly after being in a PvP).

I apologize for any hurt feelings. The intent was not to simply kill a character 'because I can'. There was a story to be told, and a culture to adhere to. (There is more to this, which can be shared privately if need be).

I hate PvP, but I know it's a part of the game. And it's interesting in playing a Drow because for some... they believe that there's a standard "open" PvP notice just by playing the race. Whereas I like to give some notice, and warn that actions are driving me to the point where I will be acting against the other player.

Will I use an insta-kill spell? Most definitely... depending on the situation, though, I'll likely be set to killmode: stun unless there is reason for me to be otherwise. The reason being... the player's death is NOT the story line that I'm trying to promote, but the dominance of a Drow priestess. What good is it to say 'LISTEN TO ME OR DIE'... and then not follow through with the threat?

I do agree that there needs to be a balance, and not an abuse of insta-kill spells. But I guess I find that balance in the story being told. There have been times when my PC was "in over her head" and could have easily been killed by those of higher level/skill/rank... but the story worked out where death was not necessary. I would hope that the same could be true in all cases.

Thoughts? Comments? Observations?

[Harroghty]

In general, it's always best to chat it out briefly with the other PC ahead of time. There are PCs here with whom I believe that I have an understanding after years of back and forth; we don't need much more than a basic "this killmode good?" in order to move forward, but until you have that it's best to make sure that everyone is comfortable. It's traumatic to lose your hard-earned PC to the world of the living.

[Ungtar]

I've never been involved in a real pk. I've been involved in a couple of fights that were staged and set to stun, but I frankly do not believe in the random encounter pk. I think it's a major morale killer.

If I go to Howling Peak to kill goblins and a drow is just traveling through there to go learn spells somewhere or to gather a blueberry or whatever they do, then why should one of us end up having to go through the big hassle of having to be raised from the dead and lose out on our playtime?

So when faced with a bossy, rude drow (or any other type of character) I just end up leaving. Even when I'm pretty sure I could kill them, even if it involves using one of several instadeath spells I have at my disposable.

I've got ONE player with whom I've arranged a future pk and we're going to play it out cat-and-mouse over a long period of time. Why? Because it's great IC for both of our characters and it's a lot of fun that way. The random PK is just annoying for everyone, I would think.

Now you might be a bit stuck if you're a holy priest of Ilmater or some other good god and you stumble across a drow slowly pulling the legs off of kittens. But if you're a warrior who doesn't have much of a chance against the probably 8 instadeath spells that evil drow kitten-killer has memorized .... probably best to make a fighting withdrawal to go get help or something. You're not going to win unless your first round gets 5 crits and you remove all the arms of your opponent.

[Tortus]

Hence the OOC consideration. If some evil comes passing through Howling Peaks do some quick business and run into a low-level character in the Howling Peaks, or vice verse, the player of the more powerful character should be mature enough to see that he doesn't just run the poor guy's lowbie over. That doesn't mean that there can't be an altercation, if they are so aligned, but unless it's agreed upon, it shouldn't be fatal.

I've been in PvP situations wherein my opponent's been sorely outmatched, where we've gone in killmode spar and simulated either me beating him down and giving him some jeers, or him managing a lucky blow at me and escaping, and I've been in situations where the opposite was the case as well, and because of OOC consideration, both sides have been enjoyable to partake in.

As far as I see it, PvP situations aren't so much about actually winning as to give a chance to roleplay one's character in a critical situation, rather than when everything's just dandy and you're having cupcakes in the market. For many of us, this is actually why we play a fantasy game. For me, if I wanted to have cupcakes in the market, I'd go have cupcakes in the market. I'm playing fantasy games because I like to roleplay being in different fantastical situations and settings and pretend I'm killing scores of drow and trolls and stuff.

So if we all just try to be a little bit considerate, all flavors will be available without hurt feelings. Even bitter, for those who like it.

[Zorinar]

In just friendly spars, I feel it is cheesy and cheap to use insta kill spells. PVP, however, is more situational and maybe dare I say -practical-, even on killmode stun. You can just RP that they survived it somehow by luck.

In respect to a friendly spar, you can change the code to "hold back" the killing blow but how do you actually hold back a disintigrate or a phantasmal killer spell on purpose? I'm not sure magic actually works that way where you can control the spell after you fired it off. So from that perspective, from a more IC and realistic perspective, death spells seem unrealistic to use and, at best, nearly impossible to control.

On an OOC note, they can induce incredibly boring spars and will not usually promote the recipient to futher participate in sparring with you if that is how you like to win them. The fun spars are always when both sides have a chance and they run it right down to the wire.

Anyway, that is just my 2 Zori-Cents(TM). Sayonara for now...

[Althasizor]

Going to give this topic a bump with a general reminder: Yes you have insta-kill spells, No I am not suggesting you never use them. However, there's a plethora of mobiles on which to make unfettered use of these things - To your fellow players, especially ones already greatly outnumbered, let's try to take the rule of courtesy into account when deciding whether to immediately end a roleplayed encounter. In a scenario when even escaping alive is a slim prospect, let alone winning, it's difficult -not- to be upset at having that dashed away without even a chance of fighting back.

[Elenthis]

/Supported. There is a wizarding event coming, during which this will be address in an IC manner (among a number of other topics) but let's all put some real effort into making sure that PvP is fun for both sides. Sometimes it's more fun to lose, then to win by kill-spell. I promise. (I do it all the time!)

Jeff.

[dolifer]

I've been in a couple "real" pvp situations, and I do agree that it can definitely be fun even to lose. That said, though, casters have death spells for a reason, and I think that, if it has been worked out OOCly that the encounter will be to the death, there's no reason why a caster shouldn't use everything he/she has. I've died plenty of times to things like Slay Living and Finger of Death, and yes it sucks, but it's also part of the world the characters live in. In the real IC world, these things are a constant threat, and should be taken into account when considering pvp (I always do, anyway).

I'd also like to apologize more publically for this. Regardless of what I've just said, I do know how much it sucks, and there are tons of other much more fun ways to do pvp. I think after so long of being in the mindset of "kill, kill, kill" when battling NPCs, I forget that that's not the only way to go about things. So, I'm very sorry for this one, and I'll be certain to change how my future pvp encounters go.

...I feel bad for the dude who phant killers someone from a room away if their victim's deity notes it.

Ha! Very true. I certainly got mine... And am perfectly willing to take those consequences. Totally deserved it.

[Gwain]

Even though I have access to many instant death spells I will do my best not to use them in pvp if I can help it and it's not agreed on first. If someone feels they need to use them early and often in combat regardless of the situation or without consent I may leave the pvp. I'm not in it to win it, I'm here for fun.

[Alitar]

I may be mistaken but I distinctly remember it coming up in the past that phantasmal killer is bugged. It appears to only only allow a will save, when it is intended to give a will save followed by a fortitude save. I thought this was a common knowledge bug but now I'm not finding it in forum search. Still, this bug makes the spell act as a reliable off switch for many classes to the point where it being used on a top level fighter(or other low will class) seems to very simply be bug exploitation or code abuse.

That said, and with how often this comes up on the forums or just in-game, I would suggest the spell be disabled until it is fixed. Too often it seems like this specific spell is the one that ruins the fun and turns an enjoyable roleplay into an unhappy forum thread with an upset and frustrated player.

P.S. anyone have a link to where the bug was brought up before?