Changes to the posted laws of Waterdeep

[Gwain]

I think the posted laws of Waterdeep are actually behind and need to be brought up to match the coded laws of Waterdeep. There are a lot of things that they say that are not being enforced through code. Its very confusing and causes a lot of dramatic tension that could be avoided.

I would suggest pairing them with the current coding on the guards of the city.

[Althasizor]

I would be quite against this change. I was under the assumption that the MOBs were laxxed so that the enforcements of city race laws could be left open to the playerbase's discretion, adventurer justice, etc. as is true of most all other similar situations nowadays. I'm -generally- against advocating modern day-esque racial tolerance in our medieval fantasy.

[Gwain]

I'm -generally- against advocating modern day-esque racial tolerance in our medieval fantasy.

Its more about making the written laws mirror the coded ones than switching to modernity.

[Althasizor]

I was under the assumption that the MOBs were laxxed so that the enforcements of city race laws could be left open to the playerbase's discretion, adventurer justice, etc. as is true of most all other similar situations nowadays.

I'm reminded of the line, "Just because code lets you...". The law is coded into the post standing in the market, for players to take and disregard, or enforce at their leisure, no? It's not always positive for a lawbreaking character when they encounter a lawful-aligned character, but thems the breaks, in my opinion.

[Yemin]

I'm with Gwain on this one.
I don't think it has much to do with roleplay... if a city's laws says no drow blooded and half drow are strutting up and down infront of the constable, thats kind of off.

E.g. if my kelemvorite walked up to the zhentil keep gate guards and they bowed and gestured me inside with me flashing my faith symbol in plain day, Oocly i'd give them a double take and go... ermm... huh?

It helps emersion if the npcs act like you and me and don't stand around ignoring things that they shouldn't be. Having them throw half drow out of waterdeep in no way should stop half drow for actually coming into the city through various hidden means and thereby still invoking the PC driven initiative to burn them darned evil beings with fire.

.. Burn them with fire I say, their skin aint obsidian enough!

[Althasizor]

Yemin: I'd absolutely be for a change in -that- direction. Having NPCs react, and be more immersive is always fantastic, and brings much more life to the game! It was changing the city's laws to fall in line with the NPCs -not- currently reacting, that I had raised concern over.

*lights up torch*

[Yemin]

Yemin: I'd absolutely be for a change in -that- direction. Having NPCs react, and be more immersive is always fantastic, and brings much more life to the game! It was changing the city's laws to fall in line with the NPCs -not- currently reacting, that I had raised concern over.

*lights up torch*

Oh, well, then yeah, right on.
When I get the energy, i'm going to see how possible it is to take on an entire city and leave dead guards everywhere

[Xryon]

Oh, well, then yeah, right on.
When I get the energy, i'm going to see how possible it is to take on an entire city and leave dead guards everywhere

Happened when I was exploring as Garumsh, back in the day. Unintentionally wandered into a place I shouldn't have been, guards auto-attacked... by the end I had no arms and one leg. Had to kick a few to death. Nice mountain of bodies, though, before they finally got me.

[Alitar]

Oh, well, then yeah, right on.
When I get the energy, i'm going to see how possible it is to take on an entire city and leave dead guards everywhere

You might find that the guard can become reactive to such attacks.

[faylen]

Regardless of how it's done, I agree that the npcs and the posted laws really should line up one way or another. It's especially frustrating because how would pcs enforce laws when the npcs are just as likely to then arrest the pc?

That said, I do want to say that racial tolerance isn't *always* trying to make the game modern. Take Lathander's dogma, for example.

[Mele]

Lathander is a sort of bad example, seeing as logic says places where there is no sun = bad = drow blood = bad. They're about self betterment and second chances, but that's not a sentence to have no racial preference in a racially bigoted world. Plus you have to WANT a second chance, they don't just hand them out. I think the word 'humankind' in the dogma excerpt speaks volumes, it could easily have been persons/people.

Ilmater is a better example, but even an Ilmateran would be weary of some races. Selune is a fine example, but tolerance does not equate to acceptance.

Ahem, forgive my derail, I just always feel like there is never enough race-squirmishness. Genasi look like butts and death, tiefling are ratchet and drowblood chill with spiders and it's EXTREMELY rarely a big deal to anyone. If I'd burn my house down over a spider today, I can't imagine what I'd do over a spider-carrying-lover in times where I could smash someone's head in freely with little repercussion.

[Yemin]

Visual impact doesn't have .. well, alot of impact for me personally, whether thats because i'm a blind player and have never put much stock in what things look like or not I dunno.

All I can say is that its an active thought process to react to something based on how it looks instead of a passive one.

Also doesn't help I tend to play unhinged characters that are more concerned with keeping their burgening madness in check and have been persecuted themselves for it not to have few scruples over racial issues.

If there's a race most of my chars in the past on different muds have been discriminatory towards I'd have to say its any daefic race.

... thats right... gods don't get to vote

[Raona]

A little history might help make sense of this. For many years there was a PC organization called The Watch that enforced the less cut-and-dried laws of Waterdeep. The NPC guards were coded to deal with easily coded, black and white issues (like theft from NPCs), but the members of the Watch had the discretion to interpret the stickier stuff (like whether someone in disguise could be made out, or theft from PCs) and the power to enforce the laws(including locking people up). The laws were originally posted to clarify what they were enforcing. While being in the The Watch may sound like a fun RP, it wasn't quite the adventure RP FK strives for (Watch members ended up patrolling the city rather than adventuring) and it got tedious for most after a short time (so there was a lot of turnover). So the Watch was disbanded a few years back, but the Laws remain. This is because at any moment the guard can be kicked into action to enforce these laws, and because most lawful PCs will not only abide them but take umbridge at those who do not (at least, as they interpret them). Just because you have not seen these laws enforced, please do not assume that they will not be...but also understand that Waterdeep is a big city and one can get away with quite a bit...at least for a time...before the law catches up with them.

[faylen]

Actually the part I was referring to with Lathander was the striving to make societies better through racial harmony, among other things. Of course that could be open to interpretation as well, my own lathanderite takes it pretty widely but she draws the line at tieflings, being an aasimar and all.

My elf on the other hand does have racial issues, though rp has evolved to lessen some of those with half orcs. That wasn't planned, but it did happen. My own personal take is that I try to figure out when I create a character how they'll see things, then allow faith and rp to drive any changes. Not saying I do it perfectly by any means, but it's not as some might assume, just deciding I don't like racist characters.

Just my own take on the issue.

[Yemin]

My elf on the other hand does have racial issues, though rp has evolved to lessen some of those with half orcs. That wasn't planned, but it did happen. My own personal take is that I try to figure out when I create a character how they'll see things, then allow faith and rp to drive any changes. Not saying I do it perfectly by any means, but it's not as some might assume, just deciding I don't like racist characters.

Just my own take on the issue.

Just be safe and hate everybody at the same level.

[Gwain]

I think the recent changes to the posted laws go a long way in ensuring some normalcy without compromising personal rp or rp quirks. Personally, I'm satisfied.

The Laws of Waterdeep
=====================
By edict of the Lords of the City, all who enter these walls are required to
know and obey the Laws of Waterdeep, which will be enforced by the City Watch
and Guard. The following are forbidden herein, save by explicit edict of the
Lords themselves:

1) Treason or Sedition [Action or speech that undermines the City]

2) Murder [Taking the life of another]

3) Assault [Attacking another; non-lethal combat between WILLING combatants
is allowed ONLY on the Fields of Triumph, outside the Fighter's Guild, just
north and west of the Market Square.]

4) Theft [Taking the property of another without their free consent]

5) Public Disturbance [Endangering the public or disturbing the normal course
of business]

6) Impeding Justice [Through action or inaction, interfering with the Justice
System of Waterdeep]

Additionally, all within must abide the formal requests of the Lords, City
Guard, and Watch.

Creatures with goblin, drow, or duergar blood, as well as full-blooded orcs,
are banned entry to the City, as are individuals explicitly banned by the
Lords. Banned creatures entering the City risk their lives and all their
belongings, with no further warning. Outcast creatures, including those of
demonic heritage, may not be immediately recognized by the Guards at the
gates, but risk the same consequences if discovered herein. This does not
empower or condone vigilantism - enforcement is left to the Watch.

The various faiths have jurisdiction over their own temples, unless they have
formally requested the aid of the Watch. The Undermount is not part of the
City proper - ye enter it at your own peril.

Please see the notice board in the Halls of Justice, or inquire with any Lord
of Waterdeep, for further details.

[Althasizor]

So long as the MOBs were also changed so as to actually react to those banned creatures, rather than stand around slackjawed, it wouldn't even be necessary for players to get into vigilantism? Which rings -hard- of code abuse, as it is.

[Maetha]

Playing as a LE player has been admittedly difficult to reflect the Lawful axis of my alignment in the midst of Waterdeep while half-drow run around in front of the constable, people drop off disgusting testaments of faith, and etc with the hard stipulation against vigilantism while NPCs are not coded to respond to things. I, personally, would be fine with a little extra enforcement, since places like Silverymoon / Temples of Lathander / etc automatically disallow Evil alignments wheras more general areas still allow lawbreakers.

I understand that it is inconvenient and troublesome to do so- especially inconveniencing long running players- but I'm with Althasizor that it kind of sets a bad precedent.

[Gwain]

There are coded features in Waterdeep that boot out races like tieflings and half drow except under special circumstances.