Fighter builds

[Yemin]

For reference:
Armour Penalty
==============
The Armour Penalty entry in the scoresheet indicates the penalty applied to a roll involving a skill check that requires nimble motion, as a result of the armour worn by the PC. Skills so affected include climb, hide, and sneak.
Double this penalty is applied against swim checks.

Before anything I wanted to check if this applied to only the skills listed or if the skills listed were just examples since I always used to take this help file as, All skills that relied relied purely on deck-luck: like dodge, or perhaps pick lock, though I don't have a rogue to say for sure.

I was asking because it leads to my main question. What are the pros and cons for a fighter build that doesn't use heavy armor. In FK the armor scales are slightly different from what i'm used to, Medium armor generally will end up with a char having 2 - 3 less AC overall than if he wears heavy and though i've never played a char with good light armor, seems even the higher level rangers and such still benefit from the +4 from the armor spell... which I always thought was a little sad.

I play path finder and now 5e mainly so this is the kind of scaling i'm used to.

Heavy armor Avg AC without shield/enhancements 19-20
Medium armor without the same: 18-19
Light armor without the same: 16-18

This is assuming that the person wearing each case has built for it and has trained, rolled or point bought their dex to suit the armor they'll wear for the rest of their lives.

So yeah, please discuss, is there any point in a defensive fighter, or any fighter to wear medium / light armor? In FK even maxing your dex out doesn't seem to help you catch up with the AC of heavier armors and considering how fairly easy it is to buy flight potions and the such from pc or npc wizards, the cost to skills like climb or swim is negated entirely except for very specific underwater places.

[Xryon]

Defensive/tanky builds are doable. I haven't seen/heard of a truly successful light-armored fighter since way back, before dodge was changed to its current iteration. Traditionally, the most successful fighters have been the ones that just dish out ungodly amounts of damage, and rock the heavy armor. The unwieldliness of light armor fighters is actually what led to my experimentation with my pseudo-barb area, just because they don't seem to work in their current form.

[Terageld]

Defensive fighters clad in the full plate are awesome. I used to play as a classic mercenary who wore half-plate, swung around great sword, and drank way too much ale. But now as a pirate fighter, Terry has to balance between the "get super strong with heavy armor" aspect and the "wear frills and leather like actual pirate role-play" aspect. The heavy armor just simply works better on a fighter. Though I get super nimble when I'm wearing the calico, I drop crazy amounts of health when enemies score good hits. For the role-play purposes as a pirate, I guess the best armor is hide. It is medium armor and durable enough, but also looks lighter than it actually is.
Anyone know how the rangers do it? They seem like they're quite successful…

[Ungtar]

Anyone know how the rangers do it? They seem like they're quite successful…

Barkskin.

[Yemin]

Yeah lol, sad but true

[Yemin]

Wasn't sure which thread I should put this but I suppose here is more relevant than in the training one.

How high an INT score have people taken their fighters to. I thought 14 was enough for a good rate of skill increase + 13 being the requisite for expertise but I'm seriously starting to consider 16

[Terageld]

Wasn't sure which thread I should put this but I suppose here is more relevant than in the training one.

How high an INT score have people taken their fighters to. I thought 14 was enough for a good rate of skill increase + 13 being the requisite for expertise but I'm seriously starting to consider 16

I'm not sure. I still think it's better to grab the 18s for str, dex, and con. The other stats are for pansies.

[Yemin]

Totally agree if int didn't affect rate of training, and Wis didn't effect will saves spot and listen checks.

[Alitar]

Stats should reflect the character, not what one believes an ideal character sheet looks like.

[Gwain]

Stats should reflect the character, not what one believes an ideal character sheet looks like.

Well said. I've built my characters in the past based on rp, I do admit that I've been focusing on better builds of late, but they tend to flow well with the rp I generate. so its a compromise.

[Xryon]

Garumsh went with an absurd 18 int. Was before the teaching feats were brought and, and I was trying to get everything GM'd to facilitate some orcish war training... charisma/wisdom requirement put a stop to that, but I'm sure it made a considerable difference in the time required to train up the skills.

[Yemin]

Stats should reflect the character, not what one believes an ideal character sheet looks like.

Well said. I've built my characters in the past based on rp, I do admit that I've been focusing on better builds of late, but they tend to flow well with the rp I generate. so its a compromise.

Same here, all my characters reflect their stats in their rp.
Optimizing doesn't have to mean poor rp

[Dranso]

For me, there is no perfect character build in any of the classes. There are so many different options based on class, guild, race, religion, hometown, stats and feats its impossible to tell which combination would rule them. If you want your fighter to be a dual wielder then spend some points on dexterity to buy the dual wield feats. If you want him to be a tank, maybe spend some points on int to buy the expertise feat. If you want him to do a lot of damage spend points on str. Different religions offer different faith items/prayers. Different races offer different bonuses to ac or int, etc. Hometown can affect what feats are available to you. So on and so forth. The game is fairly balanced in this respect. I've always had a lot of fun building characters whose skill set isn't necessarily seen too often in the game. The best advice I can give is to build whats going to be fun for you and don't compromise. That's why we are allowed to have more than one character per account.

[Yemin]

For me, there is no perfect character build in any of the classes. There are so many different options based on class, guild, race, religion, hometown, stats and feats its impossible to tell which combination would rule them. If you want your fighter to be a dual wielder then spend some points on dexterity to buy the dual wield feats. If you want him to be a tank, maybe spend some points on int to buy the expertise feat. If you want him to do a lot of damage spend points on str. Different religions offer different faith items/prayers. Different races offer different bonuses to ac or int, etc. Hometown can affect what feats are available to you. So on and so forth. The game is fairly balanced in this respect. I've always had a lot of fun building characters whose skill set isn't necessarily seen too often in the game. The best advice I can give is to build whats going to be fun for you and don't compromise. That's why we are allowed to have more than one character per account.

I love that attitude towards games in general and its one I mostly hold for almost every other game apart from D20 based ones. FK is based on 3.5e dnd at the moment and despite Wizards and clerics being nerfed in FK in comparison to the tabletop neither is balanced in any sense of the word. Doesn't mean its not fun, I'd go so far to say a completely balanced game loses some elements of fun but yeah. I want to avoid this thread becoming a war so if you disagree, pm me and I will link you to a couple of other forums that go into the detail on the subject or you can google up something like...
"is 3.5e balanced? why not?"
There are a bajillion reasons and threads on it.

Going back to the topic at hand, can anyone confirm that the dodge skill is actually affected by armor penalty at all? As the reason I was hoping medium armor would measure out equal to full plate despite the -2 / -3 total AC was purely based on having an extra skill useable that full plate wearers kind of lost out on.

[Valyn]

I did the math on it once. Long story short, with a tower shield and the right feats a heavy armor fighter can land AC in the upper 30s.

The best a light armor fighter is going to do, assuming rare +2 studded leather, is going to be in the low 20s. Since we tend not to have items greater than +2 on FK it's very difficult to compare someone in light armor to someone in heavy armor. If you're looking to play this build it's probably better to go with high dex and a bunch of potions of armor, as the AC of Studded Leather and the shifting Max dex bonus of armor leaves you at about the same AC any way you cut it.

The translation of this in a fight between a level 50 light armor Warrior type and a level 50 heavy armor warrior type, per round, comes out to be:

Light Armor: 25% chance to hit, very low chance to hit for remaining attacks
Heavy Armor: Nearly guaranteed hit, 75% chance, 50% chance, 25% chance, something around 10% for the 5th attack FK has decided to give guilded Fighters.

If you watch Game of Thrones, think about the scene where the Hound is talking about how the fast, Bravosi style of Rapier-ish fighting just doesn't compare with a suit of armor. It's true here, too. If your goal is to build a light armor fighter that can compete with a tank, it isn't going to happen. On the other hand, try getting that armor in full plate to follow you through an area that requires the climb or swim skills and they will find themselves in some trouble.

As a Ranger, I have found several areas where the skills this class provides are necessary for the survival not only of the Ranger, but also of the party. Certain things like the real Favored Enemy system from D&D 3.5 would help balance out the damage dealing potential of Fighters, giving the Ranger the upper hand against certain opponents, but overall they tend to be weaker.

In straight melee, a light armor Fighter would find themselves to be a cut above Rangers thanks to the Guild feats

[Yemin]

Thanks for the detail on that. I had the feeling from my current experiment that this was the case but even with those numbers looking like rounded ups and down they seem alot more severe than I originally thought.

I can't say 100% of areas that require swim can be overcome by a fly potion... but I can't think of a situation where a fly potion doesn't make climb completely redundant though.#

Don't mistake me though. I'm not saying those skills are worthless overall, just that to a fighter in full plate the main backdraw to his wearing heavy armor seems pretty easily overcome.

How about dodge for rangers and rogues then, how much does it save you in combat or is it a semi ok defense?

[Valyn]

From what I can tell Dodge rarely fires and Riposte doesn't work anymore.

Dodge is still definitely useful, but I'd say its effect is more over the course of a dungeon rather than over the course of a combat.

There are other disadvantages to wearing full plate. Carry wt, skill check failures. In D&D there are more things that don't quite make it into the game here, like rust monsters destroying it, or not being able to rest during a long adventure while wearing full plate, etc, but they're things that are unconventional as far as MUDs go and make more sense in a DM'd setting.

I'm not saying this as a definitive guide - there are definitely builds that exist which elude me. However, it seems like if you focus on RPing your character and living with your choices - who knows what you might come across to help support your RP.

[Yemin]

I once saw a character in full plate say his carry weight was 55 lbs. Whether you believe it or not... Its not far fetched that if your armor is mithral / titanium, you can easily stick under light load in full plate.

Heck... at the moment I have a fighter in full plate and his carry weight is something like 110 lbs which is still light load for him.

Good to know about dodge and reposte as well then. I probably should've started this thread before devoting effort and emotional attachment into a subpar char but oh well.... I have plenty of those lol.

It does occasionally happen that people get rewarded for sticking with a char because of roleplay which is all fair enough. I hope though that this thread in the future might give admin initiative to rebalance these issues. Since really my main aim in this thread and in the experimental char was mostly troubleshooting. Seeing what works and what doesn't. Finally outlying why the heck every single fighter and cleric just wears full plate if they have the proficiency.

I like to meet optimization and roleplay half way. For me its equally as unfun to play a completely worthless character, as it would be to play a soulless one.

[Hadwyn]

I have been reading this series a while and given it some considerable thought. Fighters are highly dynamic and you can do quite a bit with them given all their feats. My own character is actually hurt by the fact I have a terrible time finding the feats I want (either through quests or just wandering around) to match my vision. Some of this is based on RP choices (not going to learn from evil NPCs and have not found the good/neutral alternative yet).

In general, I have found my 'tank' character is best suited to party quests and RP. Properly prepared, a 'tank' character can generally keep companions alive in the most hostile environments long enough for escape, if needed. He does not have the ability to wander around on his own as some places simply are beyond him without a cleric or wizard around to augment my high constitution, AC, and hitting power. Honestly, from a general standpoint, I do not mind this handicap. It just means I have to RP more, which is really what I am here for anyway. I am sure dual-wielding type fighters/rangers/thieves are in a similar position.

From a RP standpoint, I do not believe Fighters should be balanced against a wizard or cleric. There is no doubt a fighter dueling a paladin, wizard, or cleric is likely going to lose if there is comparable experience. You simply do not have enough tricks up your sleeves unless certain skills (which take forever to train) or side items can somehow be cunningly used. Wizards have been granted a connection to the weave and clerics/paladins to the power of their deities. Fighters are fundamentally foot soldiers. Soldiers are best when working in groups or parties. They are not solitary warriors like a barbarian. However, as your RP dictates, they are far less confined to good/evil stereotypes and can be far more dynamic as a whole. What you might lose in coded gains you make up for in mostly unlimited RP potential.

[Yemin]

Agree with most points with you there Hadwyn. Though I want to clarify that my aim for this thread was to shine a spot light on the evident differences in diffferent fighter builds. I wasn't aiming to make the class powerful enough to break out of what they are. Which is as you said, soldiers. A fighter, mono a mono shouldn't really ever be able to take down a wizard if their both of equal skill and trickiness.

I think its important for different builds to have different strengths and weaknesses, but overall they do have to add up to be somewhere near equal. Bottom line is the point of the class is to fight and kill, and do it well. Because of limitations of code and plantform FK isn't able to offer things like, greater trip / greater disarm / greater bullrush which is fine and dandy with me because I like fight and kill. The problem evident so far that this thread has revealed is that a heavy armor user can do everything a light armor user can do and do it better.

Apart from the skills, swim and climb which I've covered above. The only reason to go anything other than full, +1 plate wearing two hander fighter is flavor.

On one side a person might say..., well ok, whats wrong with that? If you like it then you like it right? Goes back to the post above about attitudes. Rp is why most of us are here and there's nothing wrong with enjoying it. I believe though that the game will better itself if it rewarded roleplay choices instead of punishing them by maintaining an armor and skill system that mechanically devalues the worth of a character.

I also believe that people often look at threads like this and automatically attach a minmax tag to it, deciding there is no roleplay value in doing so. To these people i'd say, pause and think. You sure would love your ranger more if rapid shot worked in tandem with all 4 of your natural attacks right? Its not too far a thing from that.

Lastly, I'd like to end with some of my suggestions to remedy the current flaws in fighters.

Bump up the base AC for light and medium armor by 1.
Take the dodge skill to a conpramize between now and what it used to be so its effective per combat instead of per dungeon.
Bring back riposte but set a limit of once per turn and it uses up your AOO for that turn, should they provoke by spellcasting or somesuch.


Thats all I got.