Narramsinn - Rangers hide ability

[Diamedeas]

A ranger is a cross between a rogue and druid but can not hide other than in the forest. I was wondering if it is possible or if anyone has already set in motion the option of fixing the hide ability for rangers so they hide like rogues do?

[Algon]

I am not sure that I see a ranger as a cross between a Druid and Rogue. With the exception of hiding and sneaking, they do not have much else in common with a rogue. Their skills are specifically tailored for the wilds, they hide and sneak to hunt and track prey. So I am not sure I agree with having them to be able to hide in any places other than the wild.

[Gwain]

Taken from the helpfile:

Code: Select all

Rangers
A ranger is the outdoorsman and adventuresome free spirit of the times. A
self-sufficient person, the ranger is adaptable and can survive in almost any
locale. Skilled with weapons and able to utilize some of the finest armor
available, a ranger is physically skilled enough to take on most any foe.
However, for especially hardy opponents, a ranger also can cast many useful
spells to both hinder his opponent and aid himself, including curative magic.
 
Of all the professions, rangers may be the most adept at surviving on their
own.  A ranger typically travels light, but he does have the mighty strength
of a warrior to carry equipment needed in his travels. Their need for help
from outside sources is low. 

A ranger is closer to the warrior than a rogue, therefore they receive the minimum hide skills set aside for a class with their restrictions and benefits. In my opinion I would not alter the current skills of the ranger beyond what is already being planned and designed for that guild by builders and coders. Also, if you're a ranger your hiding skill is akin to camouflage than it is to hiding or even hiding in plane sight...it makes sense that a ranger, clad in forest gear should only excel at hiding in the forest.

[Timaeus]

From SRD itself on Rangers:

Camouflage (Ex)
A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex
While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

In line with that the Ranger Hiding skill should be expanded on a very limited basis to include caves/underground that are natural in nature and paths in wild areas. Which may require some changes or addition to the sector types used in building. Also Rangers hide skill should be expanded to include all of the terrain types of the Underdark.

Theres probably one or two other instances I've forgotten about that it should be appropriate for a Ranger to hide.

[Wenin]

There are terrain types within the Underdark, which Rangers are not able to hide within?

[hasryn]

Rangers can't hide in any sort of natural rocky terrain from what I have experienced. Like the hills and mountains represented on the world map. Or even in rough hewn rooms. I'm not sure if there are any different sets of rock or underground room flags that depict if it's naturally formed or if it's manufactured so we kinda get left out of those kinds of rooms. So far I think it's just plains, water, and forest we can hide in
\.

[Valyn]

Initially this thread headed into ideas of how best to restrict Rangers' usage of hide.

I'm taking this back to the beginning to argue that Rangers should not have any hide restrictions. The reason I'm arguing this is because in SRD the Ranger and Rogue classes don't have restrictions to hide based on their classes - the Ranger class gets a pair of bonuses to hide and the Rogue can gain a bonus through a prestige class.

Here's the rule for the hide skill:

Check
Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty.
...
You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

The last two lines are the most important here.

Rangers automatically get:

Camouflage (Ex)
A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)
While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

When Rangers put points into Hide, they can use the hide skill anywhere concealment is available and at certain levels get a bonus to hide in natural settings with no concealment (Predator slathered in mud style) and with people watching. (Think Batman, only in a natural setting. So maybe this happens in Rambo? Yeah, let's say Rambo.)

Rogues can choose to add Hide In Plain Sight as part of The Assassin and/or Shadowdancer prestige classes.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)
A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Under 3.5 rules both Rogues and Rangers need concealment. Rangers can hide just as well as Rogues anywhere a Rogue goes unless the Rogue multiclasses. On FK this ability is backwards.

I think the most resourceful fix would be to flatten out the hide skill so both classes can hide anywhere.

If we wanted to truly rebalance this, Rangers at a certain level should be able to "Batman" disappear (no need to distract) when they're in any type of natural formation - the current rooms they're allowed to hide in are a good start - and Rogues should be able to spend a feat point to do the same thing in any room.

Thoughts?

[Yemin]

Personally I agree that hide should be flattened out to represent whats under 3.5e rules, I'm unsure how much the administration of FK wants to be loyal vs having their own outlook on certain issues like this in the multiverse though.

The point does remain though that if rangers will remain limited in this, I don't see how it makes any sense for rogues not to be limited to hiding in civilized environs the same way. If their intention is to be homebrew about it.

[Vaemar]

So yesterday evening I had the worst killjoy since I play here: after a long struggle I got my little ranger to level 14 and one third and went to the trainer to finally unlock my beloved hide skill. Almost immediately after having learned the skill I typed "hide" and what I got was "You may hide only in the wilds". My character concept of a stealthy ranger literally crashed in a thousand pieces under my eyes.
No, it was not nice at all.

Some cold thoughts on the matter:

*As said above: the 3.5 rules state that rangers have no restrictions, on the other hands they do have a bonus in certain settings. Here however they only have a malus and a big one indeed, i.e. they cannot hide at all in many places.

*They cannot hide but they can sneak without any issue. Why is there such a difference between these two similar skills?

*They cannot hide in many natural places which are not flagged as wilderness, thus destroying any scouting ability the ranger might rightly have had. I tried to hide in the wolf den in the Howling Peaks to no avail.

*If they successfully hide in a "wild" area, however, they can then move while remaining hidden wherever they want. For example yesterday during my tests I hid in the gardens in Waterdeep and then went around a bit without problems. IMHO this puts a considerable burden on the player to avoid code abuse, since the only real way to know with certainty whether a ranger can hide in a room is basically to try. The alternative to this? Avoid to seriously employ the hide skill.

If it is not clear, yes, I am definitely in favour of the flattening out of hide.

On the other hand I recognize that if I like stealth so much I can just stick to playing thieves as I have already done with great satisfaction. I think that the ranger class has great roleplaying opportunities also without using the hide skill, and hopefully I can use this restriction to better flesh out my character's behaviour and personality, encouraging my ranger to stay away from cities and live in the wilderness most of the time.

The only thing that embitters me, though, is that the restriction could have been made clear in the helpfiles, instead of giving me this really bad surprise after more than 80 hours. So at least, if nothing is changed, I propose to add a brief note to the hide helpfile.

[Ungtar]

Isn't your ranger a deep shadow?

[Vaemar]

Isn't your ranger a deep shadow?

No, surface ranger here.

I wonder if deep shadows have got the same restriction as surface rangers.
I saw one of them hiding in a wilderness "tunnels" room.

[Ungtar]

Isn't your ranger a deep shadow?

No, surface ranger here.

I wonder if deep shadows have got the same restriction as surface rangers.
I saw one of them hiding in a wilderness "tunnels" room.

I dunno. Never played one, but I was about to be seriously disappointed if you couldn't hide as a deep shadow in the UD.

I do believe that the inability to hide as a ranger in anything other than forest is limiting. A ranger ought to be able to hide anywhere in the following sectors (not flagged indoors):

SECT_FIELD
SECT_FOREST
SECT_HILLS
SECT_MOUNTAIN
SECT_DESERT
SECT_WOODS
SECT_TUNDRA
SECT_BARREN

If I had my druthers (I don't), I'd have the skill check against the sector type, your hide skill, the weather, time of day, AND your geographic knowledge of that area.

[Duranamir]

Just to confirm, Deep Shadow rangers can hide in Underdark sectors of various kinds.

Duranamir

[Parsley]

I think that restriction it is outdated at best.

A ranger should be to able to hide everywhere period. Furthermore, should he choose to hide in the wilds he should have a bonus to it.

A different topic would be a ranger that spends all his time hiding in a city, but they should be able to hide everywhere really, it just does not make any sense.

[Ungtar]

I think that restriction it is outdated at best.

A ranger should be to able to hide everywhere period. Furthermore, should he choose to hide in the wilds he should have a bonus to it.

A different topic would be a ranger that spends all his time hiding in a city, but they should be able to hide everywhere really, it just does not make any sense.

Lay out your argument for it.

If it's convincing enough, maybe the guy with code access will make a change.

My argument to support what you're saying is that there are many ways to play a ranger. A thief-catcher, a wilderness wanderer, an explorer of Mystra, Aragorn, a desert hermit, whatever. The restriction to only being able to hide in forests limits the roleplay possibilities.

[Vaemar]

If I had my druthers (I don't), I'd have the skill check against the sector type, your hide skill, the weather, time of day, AND your geographic knowledge of that area.

In addition to forests and rivers I can also hide in plains and roads.

I also noticed that I can hide in the two rooms immediately at the southern entrance of Waterdeep, the one with the sign and the nearby one with Alb Terrington. Again, without trying I would never have guessed my character could hide there. :/

I also can hide in the hills wilderness room, but not in the one hill wilderness room which is the entrance of the Howling Peaks. However I can hide in the first room immediately inside the area and in the trail there. As said before, however, not inside the Peaks, i.e. where it is useful to actually hide.

I also tried in the High Moor and it is possible to hide there.

A different topic would be a ranger that spends all his time hiding in a city, but they should be able to hide everywhere really, it just does not make any sense.

I think that that would be poor roleplay. As in general being a ranger or druid and passing most of your time in general within a city.

[Parsley]

Lay out your argument for it.

All skills are "generic", there isn't such a thing as "Hide in the Wilds" skill or "Meditate in the Temple" skill, you can make use of them as long it makes sense to use them.

If you have the skill to hide it is not much more different a tree than a barrel, a corner in a building than a rock. That restriction does't exist in D&D and I imagine that it was created in FK to make more flavorful the rangers. In all honesty seems a bit ridiculous that an expert ranger in hiding is totally clueless because he can't find a tree to hide behind it.

In different manner rogues can hide in the city and in the wilds, could an apprentice thief in hiding hide both in the city and in the wilds, while a grandmaster ranger only hide in the forest? I think not.

[Ungtar]

There goes that roleplay limitation again.

If you're a ranger of Mielikki and you spend all your time chatting about fashion in the market square then, well, probably not the best roleplay.

But what if you're a ranger of Tyr, the god of law and justice? Your wilderness ranger skills are applied in the pursuit of thieves and outlaws, both in the city and in the wilds.

The pathway up to Howling Peaks being no-hide for a ranger doesn't make sense as it is both outdoors and in the hills. Hiding inside in a cave is a slightly different situation.

I suppose the difficulty is in boosting the ranger without diminishing the flavor of the actual thief.

And nothing actually stops anyone from playing the thief class AS a ranger. I have a dwarven thief who is a tunnel scout out of Citadel Adbar, a sort of ranger from the Underdark. Doesn't have magic like a real ranger would, but that's in keeping with the dwarven stereotype.

I'm all about breaking out of the mold where it can be done.

ETA: Parsley's post came in while I was typing all of the above. Good argument, Parsley.

[Vaemar]

I suppose the difficulty is in boosting the ranger without diminishing the flavor of the actual thief.

Having more than 500 hours playing a thief I can state quite frankly that, although hiding and sneaking is a nice component of the class, it is by no means what distinguishes a thief from anything else. Personally I find the various backstab abilities, thievish feats like opportunist, abilities like pick lock or discern (even detrap if I had had the chance to use it ) to be the salient features of the thief class. But not hiding or stealing, since those are in fact in common with bards.

And nothing actually stops anyone from playing the thief class AS a ranger. I have a dwarven thief who is a tunnel scout out of Citadel Adbar, a sort of ranger from the Underdark. Doesn't have magic like a real ranger would, but that's in keeping with the dwarven stereotype.

I think that for the drow all scouts are in fact thieves.
For deep gnomes, on the other hands, both thieves and rangers are in the Deep Shadows.

P.S.
Again, I am definitely in favour of allowing rangers to hide everywhere, as I stated before. I agree 100% with your and Parsley's thesis that this limit limits the roleplaying opportunities of the ranger class.

[Gwain]

Rangers should be able to hide in wilderness areas and rooms with appropriate wilderness flags indoor and outdoor, however they should not be allowed to hide in urban environments in my opinion. Hiding everywhere and hiding in plane sight belongs to classes like thieves and rogue depending on skills items and feats associated with their rp.