Random Discussion on "Evil"

[Ungtar]

The purpose of this thread is just a random discussion with fellow roleplayers, not a critique of anyone's roleplay.

I have always felt that the best evil characters do not realize they are evil. They are more "goal oriented" than evil. The necromancer who wishes to live forever simply to continue his studies of magic. Or the knight who has lost perspective on what evil truly is and now gives out the death sentence for such trivial crimes as stealing water from a well. The usurper king who would seize power by any means necessary in order to save the kingdom.

How does that work though in a magical world where people walk around with "detect evil" up and immediately accuse you of dark crimes? How does that work in Greenwood's universe where almost every deity is firmly on one side or the other?

[Bronson]

I personally don't put much thought into it if I see someone who's evil walk into my room. Alignment is just one of those things that can be differ by opinion, especially when you drill down past good/evil/neutral, and get into lawful/chaotic.

I am one of those folks that always has detect evil/good/law/chaos on, just because I am curious in general, but I never let it sway my roleplay. There's a lot more than alignment that goes into how your character feels toward another. For example, Bronson's homeland is Skullport, and as such, has seen his fair share of "evil" folks, but doesn't believe they are immediately terrible people because they glow with dark aura.

At the end of the day, play your character the way you feel they should. The only cut and dry roleplay situations I have come into is when it involves faith. If I walk upto a follower of Cyric, I will immediately judge him, but for his faith, not his alignment.

[Yemin]

Answer: not very well. In all the books around the dnd setting i've read there's only ever been one character I've encountered in the novels that falls vaguely under your description and he was the party cleric... ironically. This also wasn't on Faerun but in the Nentir Vale. The setting for fourth edition.

When I play table top, I usually avoid seeking out divination magic about alignment unless its necessary for an item or something. Alignment often just gets in the way and while my cleric here does keep det chaos and evil up nearly constantly. I usually treat PCs in a manner that lets their rp dictate how he feels about them rather than the blak or yellow auras. You also have to realise... the spells themselves have a few limiting factors that aren't applied here. Normally it takes a creature of sufficient level i.e. HD To exude an aura thats recognizeable as anything so in universe, The thousands of experts and commoners don't have auras that magic users can get anything out off. Thats why on paper Clerics and paladins have a special class feature to exude one right from level 1 I think.

[Harroghty]

I like the careful order of Tyr's dogma as a rule for my PC in character, and a good guideline for me as a player:

Reveal the truth, punish the guilty, right the wrong, and be always true and just in your actions

Evil alignment, as you correctly point out Ungtar, is often more about indifference, selfishness, or single-mindedness than it is about willful evil for its own sake. (Willful evil for its own sake is chaotic evil - the baddest of the bad; a neutral or lawful evil PC should probably behave very differently.) So I approach a PC's alignment less as a decision "this is a bad dude who needs to die" and more as a prompt to ask "what do I know about this PC's intentions or actions?".

I believe that by focusing first on revealing the truth, and using alignment as a prompt to remind you do so, we avoid a lot of preconceived issues and allow role-play to define our interactions.


p.s. as a note on clearly aligned deities, Torm is defined as the "most ethically pure" faith in Faerun for its rigid dogma (Faiths & Avatars), but Tormans are also some of the most tolerant in the Realms (FRCS). How does that work? Well, Tormans don't tolerate evil deeds, but they don't necessarily hunt down all the followers of every evil deity and kill them to prevent evil deeds they might commit.

[Korwin]

My character Zuldorrn does not think he is "evil". Coming from skullport he thinks himself as "good" and merciful, and that his goals no matter the price paid to reach them will lead to "Goodness"

Being Evil for the sake of Evil is quite rare, even among goblinoid races

[Yemin]

I do enjoy the driven characters who end up being evil because they allow you to get into their story and connect with them but its the true villains that make me smile in delight. The ones that know their evil... or what their doing is evil but simply don't care because their the center of their own universe.

Superman's Nemesis, Dark side
The X-men's nemeses, Strife, or Dr. Sinister
Elminster's nemesis, Manshoon
Mystra's Nemesis, Mersgrave...

Well, maybe not the last, and one might disagree with me on the specifics of the examples but I feel its the true villains that make the true hero.

[Ungtar]

Being Evil for the sake of Evil is quite rare, even among goblinoid races

That's an interesting point. When you look at the pantheons, the goblin and orc deities are the real caretakers of their chosen species. Everything they do is geared towards the comfort and succor of their people, even if it looks "evil" from a human point of view.

Ungtar is technically evil, as a Malarite, but I tend to play him bound up in tradition and ritual so that his actions are very heavily dictated. He wouldn't understand evil if you explained it to him. He considers that he is a very important part of nature for if he didn't kill so many things, there would be no room for new life.

I once considered a character who was a necromancer follower of Gond, believing that a merging of necromantic energy to power machines would be the future of Faerun. Ultimately I discarded the idea but I always thought it would have been an interesting twist.

[Gwain]

Personally on my evil chars I try to be evil for the sake of evil. Being evil for me means doing the opposite of good and taking every opportunity to do evil whenever the chance arises.

[Zethanon]

Personally on my evil chars I try to be evil for the sake of evil. Being evil for me means doing the opposite of good and taking every opportunity to do evil whenever the chance arises.

I too often take a look at this approach. I have stood there and asked myself "What has LG character done?" and done the exact opposite.

If I walk upto a follower of Cyric, I will immediately judge him, but for his faith, not his alignment.

I have always felt faith more or less dictated someone as good or evil on the outside. Even with detects I rarely care to use those as means of determining how a character feels but also as mentioned by Bronson, just want to know. All of my characters have the idea that actions make who you are, but there are the few very faithful who have the idea that faith is what dictates who you are.

I have in the past used detects as a means of determining good/evil, but have since changed opinion on the spells and rarely use them if ever.

[Aysa]

For me, for my evil character... it's more of a philosophy of "Might makes Right". So if I have to put people down to show that I have might, and that my will is "right"... and crossing my path means you will face my might, my wrath. However, that does not prevent me from doing "acts of kindness". After all, I need to build my might, build my power. I can't always do that if I'm killing all my minions around me. (Except for Bob, I kill Bob all the time - only to resurrect him so that I can kill Bob at a later time).

[Svenrick]

[This post isn't so much a discussion on the philosophy of evil, but a criticism of the Detect Alignment spells because it seems an appropriate place to get feedback on my opinion of those spells.]

Currently I'm playing a character that is transitioning from Evil to Good and I've had plenty of experience on things being unbalanced against Evil characters that try to hide their true motives.

I feel that part of being a villain is being able to shock others with the surprise of what lies within your heart, but a 1st level Cleric spell allows one to discern this rather immediately.

In my own experience one person (Aurore) has used the spell to engage me in RP where she wanted to fix my character's dark heart. Others use it as an excuse to restrict services, form opinions, and identify threats and enemies.

I truly believe that it needs to be revisited because from the evil side of the fence it doesn't really contribute to meaningful roleplay and puts your character at a disadvantage except in the one occasion where the character uses it as a reason to reach out to the other, but I think that was a rare exception.

The spell is more of a utility for Good alignments to detect Evil than vice-versa because Good characters have no real need to hide their true intentions. As far as using it for discerning who you're dealing with and what they're personality is like, well you could do that by a few extended conversations instead and both parties would walk out with something from the interaction.

For possible solutions: moving it up to a very high level slot so that it is more taxing on the players that choose to use it or implementing a low-level spell that hides your alignment, but lets those who attempt to scan you know that your mind is guarded. (Although the latter solution is still balanced against Evil characters it is a sort of compromise.)

As others mentioned characters don't develop Auras until they have more power so restricting Auras to 20 - 25+ Leveled characters would also contribute to the mechanics, I think.

[Maetha]

Currently I'm playing a character that is transitioning from Evil to Good and I've had plenty of experience on things being unbalanced against Evil characters that try to hide their true motives.

I feel that part of being a villain is being able to shock others with the surprise of what lies within your heart, but a 1st level Cleric spell allows one to discern this rather immediately.

I truly believe that it needs to be revisited because from the evil side of the fence it doesn't really contribute to meaningful roleplay and puts your character at a disadvantage except in the one occasion where the character uses it as a reason to reach out to the other, but I think that was a rare exception.

The spell is more of a utility for Good alignments to detect Evil than vice-versa because Good characters have no real need to hide their true intentions. As far as using it for discerning who you're dealing with and what they're personality is like, well you could do that by a few extended conversations instead and both parties would walk out with something from the interaction.

Snipped and edited above- Svenrick and I have had multiple discussions on this matter- to the point that it's even been a point of contention between us- two friends in flesh-space. I enjoy playing subtle, manipulative evil, but the truth is I do not feel like there is a place of comfort in this community for it simply because most people do not allow such play to occur.

I understand, as well, that people perceive and act upon alignment differently- and thus my experiences on the matter can be heavily skewed and may not reflect upon the entire community. Where I might have failed to find a community to support my own playstyle, others might take similar character types and succeed.

I believe firmly that the Detect (Alignment) line of spells have always been a very severe detriment to roleplaying situations, alongside the fact that I (as a DM) always made it very obvious the themes associated with player campaigns. Of course, in a game like FK, this is skewed and difficult. People play Paladins of Tyr alongside Lolth Priestesses, Mielikki Druids, and Unaligned Rogues just stealing to survive- that was part of the beauty that attracted me to the idea of a MUD like this. Full-scale roleplaying campaigns where not everyone was a construct of my own imagination.

But I ran off topic a bit. I support tweaking the system somewhat to more properly balance out the usage of the Detect Spells. If not that, I have a suggestion in the form of allowing players to spend Kismet / Glory in exchange for an item blessed with Undetectable Alignment (Or the closest thing there is to it.) This would, of course, add somewhat to request load- but it would also be an alternative to more drastic code / server edits.

[Harroghty]

There are objects which conceal alignment in the game now.

[Yemin]

There always have been. Are they more populous now?

[Zorinar]

My characters continually use Detect Good and Detect Evil, and absolutely will deny services to Evil aura characters. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. A person may not be pure evil or pure good at any time, but everyone is judged by the observer in all social interactions, all the time. Some of us judge just by looking at someone, others judge by hearing voice tone or the level of a person's lexicon depth, others by body language, others by accordance with social norms and etc.. All of this happens behind the conscious level and none of these methods may be truly accurate, but they all add up to give us a sense of the other person and every brain is built to do this. On FK, there is yet another way to judge, through aura reading. If you have chosen a Good alignment or an Evil alignment then you are declaring that the life experiences of that character have a net weight toward one end of the spectrum or the other and such will show up on your Aura. You might not like that others can read your aura and that they can dismiss you based on it, but never-the-less, you chose that net weight when you picked your alignment and thus you are subject to the benefits and detriments of it. We all know that good people do bad things, and bad people do good things, but your aura indicates that your total life experience went one way or another, and thus it is a perfectly valid reason for a priest to say "No Thank You" to you. If you are evil and you do many good things in front of this priest to change their mind, then sure.. but then that begs the question, why are you playing an evil alignment in the first place? And if your hope was to trick people about your alignment, well then you certainly have no case when you are trying to trick someone that can see into your aura.

[Ungtar]

Trying to get services out of a "good" priest when you're an evil one may or may not work, depending upon their usage of the detect spells. I don't particularly see a problem with that. Those are divine powers and slightly to be expected in this universe. However I've always found that a lot of "good" characters are willing to be tricked if you do it in an elaborate fashion in which they'll have fun and also that there are a ton of neutral characters who will teach anyone anything if you bring the coin.

I will note that what I've had trouble with is people glancing at a particular item of clothing and metagaming you because they know OOC where it comes from when it has no particular identifying features. I'm not talking about a "ragged cloak made from the skin of an elf" but rather a plain piece of clothing.

At a certain point in your evil character's life you're going to be unmasked unless you literally never do anything. At that point you go hang out with the villains in the villain pub.

[Yemin]

I think thats generally considered metagaming though. I come from an environment where objects and items are described in such a way as to not really give away their purpose if you don't already know what they are. This applies to NPCs as well.

E.g. Instead of a soldier of the wyvern company you'd see, A tall (insert randomly generated short desc) in green and black leveried mail is here.

Instead of The shield of the red dragon you'd see: A large convex shield with wing like red patterns.

But anyway, Metagaming and detect spells are a different kettle of fish. I thought there was an understanding that the source of an item unless people see you buy it is up to the individual. Afterall, we can't all have saved the merchant's daughter right?
... I mean, if not maybe it should go in a help file.

[Harroghty]

To play the Devil's advocate: we make assumptions based upon clothing all the time in the real world. I can tell a lot about someone I meet in business by noticing his clothes; likewise there are many people in society who wear a uniform. Plus armor is distinct in its own way. You could look at a piece of armor and reasonably discern its maker if you were expert enough.

I don't feel that any rules will prevent people from improperly applying assumptions (we cannot control people's thoughts); that is something to be reinforced in roleplay, not enforced from above.

[Ungtar]

I generally would agree with that, Harroghty.

The case I'm speaking out was a wee bit more extreme but it had no IC consequences and I just walked away. No blood, no foul.

You could counter the detect evil aura by simply addressing it through roleplay.

"Oh, no. I'm evil? That can't be! I've always tried to serve the cause of justice, even when it was difficult to know what justice was. Tell me, kind sir or madam, what could I possibly do to repent?"

There's a ton of ways to deal with it. In FR canon, however, there are a dozen classes, specialists, and roles dedicated to rooting out evil and have been given special abilities to do so. If you're evil and trying to hide it, you've just got to learn to recognize those and steer clear of them.

[Yemin]

To play the Devil's advocate: we make assumptions based upon clothing all the time in the real world. I can tell a lot about someone I meet in business by noticing his clothes; likewise there are many people in society who wear a uniform. Plus armor is distinct in its own way. You could look at a piece of armor and reasonably discern its maker if you were expert enough.

I don't feel that any rules will prevent people from improperly applying assumptions (we cannot control people's thoughts); that is something to be reinforced in roleplay, not enforced from above.

A fair point. As to the classes dedicated to rooting out evil... I haven't read any novels based on a paladin of the holy light for example but from the class descriptions, each class has a very specific enemy that they deal with and none of them have anything to do with civilised society. I've seen dozens that deal with, orcs, goblins, outsiders-devils/demons/Slaad. And thats less to do with individual evil and more to do with warring against the deprivations of an entire people. Its hard for me to see how your class with the exemption of like... tyrran priest should enter into the situation and even Tyrrans as were quoted above don't usually go out, and whole slaughter evil auras.

In short, detect spells are a tool and people'll use them differently. Sometimes badly, but thats a matter of opinion. I realise though we have forgotten about another facet of it which I've always turned around in my head from time to time and can't quite come to agreement on.

Should detect spells be considered spying or rude?
Granted, your aura is... technically something external to you since its radiating out from you. but At the same time, your aura is yours, it comes from the character's personality, soul, what have you. In that facet it seems to me like mind reading without asking permission. Most of my characters don't care if their detected but as an experiment one of my characters becomes offensive if he suspects or sees a detect spell going off and reacts violently if a know alignment's aimed his way and the couple of times its happened the resultss have been spectacular.