Random Discussion on "Evil"

[Harroghty]

This is half reaction and half expectation, I think.

If you are a good PC and immediately draw steel when you detect an evil aura then you are probably overreacting. Even the two most ideologically strict faiths do not typically do this; Tyrrans (called colloquially "Tyrants") look for proof (i.e. what did the PC actually do) and Tormans (whose purpose is to hunt evil at large) fall into the same requirement (in most cases).

However...

If you are an evil PC who walks into a group of good-aligned priests and then gets upset when they don't want to be your best friend, maybe your expectations need adjustment.

Likewise half-orcs, half-drow attempting to befriend elves (esp. sun elves), etc...

[Gwain]

If you are a good PC and immediately draw steel when you detect an evil aura then you are probably overreacting.

If you're a good pc and immediately draw steel on an evil aura, then you're probably not that good of a good pc.

[Ungtar]

If you're a good pc and immediately draw steel on an evil aura, then you're probably not that good of a good pc.

Heh. I will point out that some people react way different to a low level evil priest they find struggling with goblins than they do with a max level, 10+ year character who is known to be evil.

Good and evil in Greenwood's campaign is just as muddy as it is in the real world.

Not to bring politics particularly into it, but you have Russia helping the Syrian regime who has gassed its citizens and America helping the rebels who cut people's heads off and rape children. So sometimes there's just situations where there's no clear cut good and evil. There's no magic tag popping up over the heads of the "good guys" and at the end of the day, everyone saves the merchant's daughter and kills the goblins.

While that sort of thing makes for great fiction and roleplaying gaming, it can make for a pretty sucky real life.

[Maetha]

To play the Devil's advocate: we make assumptions based upon clothing all the time in the real world. I can tell a lot about someone I meet in business by noticing his clothes; likewise there are many people in society who wear a uniform. Plus armor is distinct in its own way. You could look at a piece of armor and reasonably discern its maker if you were expert enough.

I don't feel that any rules will prevent people from improperly applying assumptions (we cannot control people's thoughts); that is something to be reinforced in roleplay, not enforced from above.

A fair point. As to the classes dedicated to rooting out evil... I haven't read any novels based on a paladin of the holy light for example but from the class descriptions, each class has a very specific enemy that they deal with and none of them have anything to do with civilised society. I've seen dozens that deal with, orcs, goblins, outsiders-devils/demons/Slaad. And thats less to do with individual evil and more to do with warring against the deprivations of an entire people. Its hard for me to see how your class with the exemption of like... tyrran priest should enter into the situation and even Tyrrans as were quoted above don't usually go out, and whole slaughter evil auras.

In short, detect spells are a tool and people'll use them differently. Sometimes badly, but thats a matter of opinion. I realise though we have forgotten about another facet of it which I've always turned around in my head from time to time and can't quite come to agreement on.

Should detect spells be considered spying or rude?
Granted, your aura is... technically something external to you since its radiating out from you. but At the same time, your aura is yours, it comes from the character's personality, soul, what have you. In that facet it seems to me like mind reading without asking permission. Most of my characters don't care if their detected but as an experiment one of my characters becomes offensive if he suspects or sees a detect spell going off and reacts violently if a know alignment's aimed his way and the couple of times its happened the resultss have been spectacular.

See, this is the kind of play I would encourage. It does feel vile and invasive to me- as while I've had people genuinely ask for the Okay (and let them scan me) I've also been scanned against my will. Of course, Paladins always rest under the clause of having Detect Evil on (but I'd go on a rant about Paladins anyway).

This is half reaction and half expectation, I think.

If you are a good PC and immediately draw steel when you detect an evil aura then you are probably overreacting. Even the two most ideologically strict faiths do not typically do this; Tyrrans (called colloquially "Tyrants") look for proof (i.e. what did the PC actually do) and Tormans (whose purpose is to hunt evil at large) fall into the same requirement (in most cases).

However...

If you are an evil PC who walks into a group of good-aligned priests and then gets upset when they don't want to be your best friend, maybe your expectations need adjustment.

Likewise half-orcs, half-drow attempting to befriend elves (esp. sun elves), etc...

You're using an extreme example to justify the median.

[Larethiel]

Paladins always rest under the clause of having Detect Evil on (but I'd go on a rant about Paladins anyway).

Why though?

A paladin sees the evil in a person when not shielded by magical items. Personally, I do not call out evils on that but just use it, ICly, to moderate my PC's behaviour. Paladins, despite seeing the dark auras, would be retarded to draw steel at every evil they see because there are so many evils and denying the evil aspects of any society would be unwise because in denying you cannot counter and reduce the evilness.

PS: Most civil places forbid wanton slaughter by law, too

[Yemin]

A paladin sees the evil in a person when not shielded by magical items. Personally, I do not call out evils on that but just use it, ICly, to moderate my PC's behaviour. Paladins, despite seeing the dark auras, would be retarded to draw steel at every evil they see because there are so many evils and denying the evil aspects of any society would be unwise.

Man... I really don't have the right mind to play a paladin. The retarded paladin seems the most appealing to me with all the possible antics.

[Alitar]

Paladins often keep what their God reveals to them about the auras of other characters to themselves. They don't go blabbing to everyone, though they will certainly caution someone if they suspect that person could be endangered by not knowing so-and-so, who they are cavorting with, is evil. While Paladins don't necessarily keep to this as a hard and fast rule, it is something I've noticed of all current Paladins and something touched on in the coded lessons.
That said, a Paladin in our world will not knowingly rub elbows with evil, and detect evil helps them ensure that they do not. A Paladin won't lie either, so if you press for a reason why a Paladin refuses to travel with you, don't be surprised when he reveals you are evil to your friends by answering you straight when you foolishly asked in front of them.
As for how detect evil works, I've always seen it as the tainted soul being laid bare, the cruelty or murder or betrayal leaves a stain that the divine reveals to a servant.

[Alitar]

Man... I really don't have the right mind to play a paladin. The retarded paladin seems the most appealing to me with all the possible antics.

You'd get bored of being ganked at a constant if you tried to hard-ball Oath of Vengeance. Not to mention, we're not a PvP MUD so just as playing the Cyricist ravager who tries to murder every PC doesn't work, neither would a Paladin who just focuses on murdering the evil PCs.

[Yemin]

True enough. Though in my mind it was a little less serious and far more silly.
all I could visualize is a big dude in armor, great sword out, chasing after every pick pocket he comes across. Or drawing steel on a mother and child because the child is a tieflign and isn't showing yet and getting thrown into the dungeons

[Harroghty]

You're using an extreme example to justify the median.

I am talking about groups that might detect alignment, which happen to be the typically more extreme cases. Faerun is a balkanized, sectarian place. While you see some hard choices and unlikely alliances (e.g. "The Great Crusade" wherein Cormyr and Zhentil Keep ally), you more often see prejudice played out. Take a simple example like the Baldur's Gate games; evil and good players within the same party clash, the more dramatic the difference (more evil, more good) the more dramatic the clash.

How do you mean though, Maetha? I would be curious to hear more about your opinion.

[Ungtar]

Waiting on Maetha's opinion too but I'll butt in with another concept based off of what Harroghty said about judging people based on clothing and such.

I live in a very rural area that is part of a former Indian reservation.

When I see a young person dressed in very typical Comanche garb, I recognize that they generally have a chip on their shoulder and they're going to pre-judge ME as well for being of mixed race. That's just part of it.

I also know when I see a white person covered in tattoos and ear piercing and missing half their teeth but not yet 30 years of old, that I'm dealing with a methhead. I have to recognize that they are untrustworthy and potentially a threat.

Luckily I live in a small community (32 people in the nearby "town", 7 of which live in my house and another 9 who are related to me in some way) and I don't normally deal with outsiders at all.

But I see the "detect evil" as sort of like running into that methhead at the gas station. I'm going to keep an eye on them, but I don't have the authority to just whip out a gun and drop them in the parking lot. I may not say much in front of them, not engage them in conversation, and lock the doors on the truck. If I see them talking to someone I know and like I may loiter nearby for the duration just in case.

That's my expectations based on how (at least my own) real life works.

[Maetha]

Paladins often keep what their God reveals to them about the auras of other characters to themselves. They don't go blabbing to everyone, though they will certainly caution someone if they suspect that person could be endangered by not knowing so-and-so, who they are cavorting with, is evil. While Paladins don't necessarily keep to this as a hard and fast rule, it is something I've noticed of all current Paladins and something touched on in the coded lessons.
That said, a Paladin in our world will not knowingly rub elbows with evil, and detect evil helps them ensure that they do not. A Paladin won't lie either, so if you press for a reason why a Paladin refuses to travel with you, don't be surprised when he reveals you are evil to your friends by answering you straight when you foolishly asked in front of them.
As for how detect evil works, I've always seen it as the tainted soul being laid bare, the cruelty or murder or betrayal leaves a stain that the divine reveals to a servant.

I've been requested- on my Cleric- to offer Death Wards to a friend and an escort in order to rescue a corpse. Playing Lawful Evil the way I do (Follows hard code, is not more out to outright screw others over, but personally delights in using the letter of the law and gaining personal power over others even though he may never in fact abuse that power over them simply because the arrangement is already to his benefit) I was perfectly willing to offer aid to someone else (whom's best interests often coincided with mine- as well as a chance for a favor owed), and their accomplice was a Paladin who refused me and outed me rather instantly as an Evil character. Of course, I smarmily dismissed this in character, but I was displeased at the breach of etiquette- as I'd never interacted with this person before IC and it felt very impersonal and even spiteful to bring attention to it instead of either simply refusing without word or accepting the blessing for Good's (raising a fellow faith member's body) sake.

I hate Paladins- stringently the same way I hate having blocked alignments in general. Paladins, of course, suffer this the most because they are forced to be Lawful Good- described as being the ultimate champions of Good. In a setting where Good and Evil are not only NOT subjective, but in fact are literal physical forces- it seems impossible- and even insulting- that they are played by people who treat it as just cause to act as enforcers and empowered social police.

While I agree that, yes, there are plenty of people who play it appropriately and carry with them tact and the right mindset of being a champion of good and divine law first and foremost, I also firmly have been made aware countless times that people who choose to play Lawful Good have no firm grasp of the appropriate levels of reaction versus action.

Once again, I run off topic.

My characters continually use Detect Good and Detect Evil, and absolutely will deny services to Evil aura characters. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. A person may not be pure evil or pure good at any time, but everyone is judged by the observer in all social interactions, all the time. Some of us judge just by looking at someone, others judge by hearing voice tone or the level of a person's lexicon depth, others by body language, others by accordance with social norms and etc.. All of this happens behind the conscious level and none of these methods may be truly accurate, but they all add up to give us a sense of the other person and every brain is built to do this.

Then I hope you play your character as paranoid, divisive, and xenophobic as you describe real world interactions to be. Perhaps it's just a difference of personality- but while I agree that- yes- we do judge people by appearance and what we know about them- there is also a level of understanding that treating them in that way -is- offensive and only adds to the problem.

There are objects which conceal alignment in the game now.

This is so haphazard and undignified a response that I'm frankly disappointed. Yes, they exist- I even got one out of my second quest on my Evil character by pure happenstance- and I didn't even know that was it's function until someone tried to Detect my character and it didn't work. I suggested an understandable alternative to obtaining such items (Perhaps aside from Kismet / Glory, a specialized store in a neutral settlement designed more for "undercover" work? I understand Mask (the deity, not the Imm) at one point might have even had reason to offer such services.

The tl;dr from me is purely based on my poor experiences with the playerbase- something that warded me away from putting more effort into doing things I originally wanted to do (long-term play with a group, putting in work as a builder for the game so areas and organizations needed to offer more player freedom could be free to play as they wish.)

[Harroghty]

I appreciate that you outlined your points in more detail. What do you think would be a good solution?

[Maetha]

I appreciate that you outlined your points in more detail. What do you think would be a good solution?

1.) The most extreme and aggressively my opinion option: Remove Detect Alignment/Know Alignment et all. Make people actively have to roleplay and learn about other characters to be able to judge and know about them. Difficult and painful in coding and community sense- hence why I throw it out first.

2.) Much more reasonably, Svenrick's note of creating a 1st Level alternative Undetectable Alignment- alerting anyone who tries to detect/know your alignment that you are shielding it, and thus it still allows a wariness in character, but requires less effort and would be more community-friendly since it would be a change of meta-awareness as opposed to one of full-blown game mechanics.

3.) Make alignment-shielding items more available or, more stringently, acquirable through certain means. As it stands, you require a severe amount of luck or a friend/acquaintance in possession of one willing to sell. This would be a temporary fix at best, however.

[Ungtar]

Your bad experience notwithstanding, the vast majority of folks don't seem to use it or don't have it. I have found it's just a matter of treading carefully around those who do and who are going to go crazy with it. For the most part, people will let you alone just to see what you're going to do.

[teepo]

Heya,

I haven't read through everything, so if this was brought up please forgive the repeat. I just wanted to throw in some two cents on a couple of things I read (Knowing that this thread is about a year old).

It was mentioned that some of the best characters don't know they're evil. I have a personal taste for that myself. There are a lot of people out there going for personal gain or growth and do some really dirty things. Dirty deeds don't always make us evil though. Some Chaotic Neutral people can be downright bastards sometimes. There's so much depth in alignments that they can't really be summed up in a single archetype. So while I do enjoy a villain who is doing what they think is best for whatever goal they have, I also have some enjoyment out of some that are outright bad and know they are. It's a point to make when two people take identical actions but one says "I'm not a bad guy" and the other says "I'm bad to the bone". One is honest, one is delusional.

Now something else mentioned was people going around casting Detect Evil frequently. Perhaps those people are extremely paranoid? I'm not sure. They could have Role Play reasons, like an overly zealous Paladin who blames everyone of being evil and goes nuts. There could be someone who is just tracking the traffic through a city and is extremely nosey. Tons of Role Play reasons.

Evil, Good, Neutral - There's so much more to them and I think we can all learn and grow from each other's perspective. I learned a lot about it over a decade ago when I played, I think there's more for me to learn still.

These are just some thoughts that came to mind.

Something else I want to note that I admire. Players who have evil characters who find In Character ways of helping others get started. Brownie Points to the max for that.

[Althasizor]

On that note, I'd also like to push a stigma onto fighters and clerics who walk around the city completely armoured up and with their weapons unbound of being stricken with paranoia.

More seriously though, I am one of those people who maintains detect evil/law on my cleric as often as possible(for a variety of reasons that make sense in-character), and have nearly never used that information to "out" someone's alignment(and even then, only a private warning if said dark-hearted villain is attempting to lure someone off alone). Paranoia and nosiness are extremes, most people settle somewhere in the middle with a healthy sense of caution.

And yo, I totally get being frustrated when your evil scheme doesn't go down the way you want it to. I've -so- been there, but that's another dude/dudette on the other side of the screen. They shouldn't -have- to play stupid so that evil has a chance, nor should they be getting blasted through non-IC mediums for how they choose to use their spells. If a character is behaving in a way that I dislike, I walk away; Nobody forces me to play with people I don't want to.

This may be slightly unrelated, but I always thought we already had a couple of spells that block detect alignment prayers?

[teepo]

Things that affect spell resistance would help with prayers and spells of that sort for example.

[Maetha]

This may be slightly unrelated, but I always thought we already had a couple of spells that block detect alignment prayers?

Mind Blank exists, but is 8th level. I've not yet seen Nondetection itself. As previously stated- I happened to VERY LUCKILY get a ring of Mind Blank when I was playing my cleric- but handed it off for schemes. The rarity and (of course, other benefits of) Mind Blank itself would be way too much to ask for in the sense of simply hiding alignment.

[Yemin]

Mind blank at least is very different in function on FK than is detailed on the SRD. I've never seen it block detect alignment spells and don't think it actually can. NO clue on nondetection but I'd guess it doesn't either though the help file says it should.

Correct me if I'm wrong of course.