Charm spells and their use

[Yemin]

So, I've had access to different charm spells for a while and there's something in the help file that has kept me wary of using it outside the once to see how it works. It also confuses me
In help charm monster it has this statement:
The charm spell, if successful, will place the victim (only mobs)
under your control for a short duration. While under your control
the creature is your friend, and may assist you in combat and other more minor duties.

Below though it says;
Please show some responsibility when using this skill/spell. It is also expected that you roleplay its usage. Using it over and over and over again is considered to be extremely poor roleplay.

Responsible use of any power in the game is stated right at the beginning. I.e. your presence here is a priv and not a right so thats fine.

But the spell itself is very short to short duration from what I've seen. Using it to help you in combat is impossible without using it over and over again.

So, before I make any assumptions / suggestions. I'd like to ask how its meant to be used.

Thanks

[dolifer]

As far as my own personal experience has gone... Areia went through a domination phase where she was practicing dominate person a lot for a few weeks. I did so under the assumption that the purpose of this rule was to prevent people from doing things like obtaining restricted items from mobs and so on. I never had an imm or another player ask me to stop.

On another alt a few months back, however, I was playing with an enchanter and he asked me OOCly this same question. I gave him the answer above, but an imm chimed in and told us that that sort of behavior (i.e., casting charms/dominations over and over to level them) is exactly the sort of thing the stated rule is supposed to prevent.

Despite its not making sense to me, since these sorts of spells are absolutely useless at low levels and the only way to get them higher is to... Use them, I go with what the man/woman above said. I actually just don't use them at all anymore.

Edited to clarify a few points.

[Yemin]

I think it needs looking at. Charm spells are an Enchanter's main tactic. Your specializing in not blasting monsters but convincing them to beat other monsters while you eat popcorn. Coupled with the fact that at least 3 of their other spells don't work properly. or aren't scaled properly Heroism, Greater heroism and crushing despair at the very least... they along with abjurers need help.

Back to topic though. If charm was abused so much in the past or there is fear of it being abused to gain items and the like I think a better guard against it are IC checks rather than a blanked OOC rule. Enchantment is a legit school in dnd and enchanters very much will try and charm their way to power if their unscrupulous. Evil ones May take over small hamlets for kicks, becoming its dark lord for some paladin to come along and kick them to the curb.

Other IC checks would be to have multiple mobs at temple faith entrances. I.e., 1 guard stops you from going into the faith only places the other guard doesn't but is just there to watch the first back for this sort of thing. I know at least the purple dragons would never fall for this sort of malarky!

Anyway, in universe I feel its not as much of a problem because most adventurers and knowledgeable peoples, the harpers and so on, know about it and actively take measures against it within the story without Ao having to do anything about it.

I'm surely missing a bunch of good reasons why it got to the stage we're at now, so I'd be interested to know whats what.

[Svenrick]

I've avoided using these spells for the reasons that dolifer stated as I've felt the warning tag is a bit too vague for me to feel comfortable using it.

On a similar note I've used "Animate Dead" plenty to have an undead minion that functions in a very similar manner as Charm Monster would, but I never had anyone PM me and there is no note so I had interpreted that the key difference of Charm Monster/Charm Person is that you could use it to rob merchants, access restricted areas, and otherwise break mechanics of several areas.

Animate Dead has the following warning:

"Zombies created through use of this spell are not permanent. Keep this in
mind when considering how to use them. Do not use minions to farm in any
form."

I had assumed that this meant you were not allowed to create minions to fight mobiles for you whilst you're off elsewhere then come back and gather the coin on the ground.

Is the key issue with Charm Monster/Charm Person the usage of it in combat situations?

Also what would be considered proper roleplay of the spell itself?

[Ungtar]

Some faiths are coded to nuke you dead immediately if you walk into the temple of an enemy deity. Knowing that you run that same risk if you charm the guard to let you into some place you're not supposed to be ought to be enough to keep people out.

Charm person and animate dead are legitimate D&D things and I don't see that they'd be of such great benefit in leveling as for them to be forbidden. Why would a ranger be allowed to run over and buy two dire wolves to level with and a necromancer not be allowed to animate two undead goblins?

If the problem is that the undead goblins are way tougher than the dire wolves then nerf the zombies.

I really dislike vague warnings in helpfiles and I tend to ignore them and do what I want. My expectation is that if I'm playing out of bounds then someone on the staff is going to tell me. Thus far that hasn't happened, so I can assume that there's a lot broader acceptable parameter than the helpfile suggests that there is.

[Maetha]

Some faiths are coded to nuke you dead immediately if you walk into the temple of an enemy deity. Knowing that you run that same risk if you charm the guard to let you into some place you're not supposed to be ought to be enough to keep people out.

Charm person and animate dead are legitimate D&D things and I don't see that they'd be of such great benefit in leveling as for them to be forbidden. Why would a ranger be allowed to run over and buy two dire wolves to level with and a necromancer not be allowed to animate two undead goblins?

If the problem is that the undead goblins are way tougher than the dire wolves then nerf the zombies.

I really dislike vague warnings in helpfiles and I tend to ignore them and do what I want. My expectation is that if I'm playing out of bounds then someone on the staff is going to tell me. Thus far that hasn't happened, so I can assume that there's a lot broader acceptable parameter than the helpfile suggests that there is.

To second Svenrick and Ungtar's opinion, I was never approached for using Animate Dead to help me level- even though honestly the spell caused more harm than it helped, since as far as I could tell, even one zombie made the XP gain slow to a crawl when in comparison I could prepare alternate spells to elongate my own trashing of poor mob HPs.

[Yemin]

No wonder kelemvor doesn't like me! All these undead and I'm not catching it?!
****Holy crusade****

I kid. I honestly hadn't even thought about how animate dead compares

[Svenrick]

All these undead and I'm not catching it?!

Well, to be fair Yemin we were very paranoid and meticulous about where we would and would not allow ourselves to use it and the times of day. Even then I kept invisibility and fly at the ready and was prepared to even start attacking my own creation to act as though I'd stumbled upon it

And so that I can be on topic:

I had not considered Charm Monster able to be abused more than Animate Dead, but perhaps if it were to be used on a monstrous quest mob then you could receive items you were not meant to?

[Maetha]

All these undead and I'm not catching it?!

Well, to be fair Yemin we were very paranoid and meticulous about where we would and would not allow ourselves to use it and the times of day. Even then I kept invisibility and fly at the ready and was prepared to even start attacking my own creation to act as though I'd stumbled upon it

And so that I can be on topic:

I had not considered Charm Monster able to be abused more than Animate Dead, but perhaps if it were to be used on a monstrous quest mob then you could receive items you were not meant to?

As far as I had read here on the forums, the request command worked once in a blue moon at best, but potentially.

[Yemin]

I've never seen a quest mob generate their reward until the quest was finished. They don't generally hold them in inventory that I can tell.

[Rhangalas]

Yeah, the helpfile footnotes really aren't dire warnings. They are just there to let you know that the use of the spell is logged and the staff will know if you abuse it. Farming means you are using the minions for combat, while your PC remains outside of the encounter. As long as your PC participates in combat with them, minions are fair game.

As far as Enchanters go right now, I would say that it is a niche specialization soley for RP purposes...

[Yemin]

Hmm, I don't know about that. I already have too much invested in other characters. Statements like that make me itch to make and test though.

Perhaps in 3 or 4 years.

They definitely need help though, As do Abjurers.

[Maetha]

Yeah, the helpfile footnotes really aren't dire warnings. They are just there to let you know that the use of the spell is logged and the staff will know if you abuse it. Farming means you are using the minions for combat, while your PC remains outside of the encounter. As long as your PC participates in combat with them, minions are fair game.

As far as Enchanters go right now, I would say that it is a niche specialization soley for RP purposes...

Don't you have to take part in a battle to obtain XP from it? I mean, realistically if you're farming for gold- I doubt minions are the best way to go about it with spells like Storm of Vengeance, Chain Lightning, et all. It certainly seems easier for me to Storm of Vengeance a room and clean-sweep the remnants with Cleave than go through the effort of constantly dealing with minions- purely my 0.02$

[Yemin]

I guess there're some areas where animated zombies get attacked on auto? I've never seen it and honestly after a while of playing here Its hard to think of a viable method but it probably happened at one point with the spell.

At the end of the day the charm spells don't seem to last long enough to be worth it, but thanks though, this thread has toned my anxiety level about it from not going to use, to use occasionally in niche situations.

[Rhangalas]

Don't you have to take part in a battle to obtain XP from it? I mean, realistically if you're farming for gold- I doubt minions are the best way to go about it with spells like Storm of Vengeance, Chain Lightning, et all.

As long as you are in the same zone you will get XP from group kills I think, I've never tested it. The difference in using AOE spells to farm gold and pushing minions into aggro areas is that you will eventually have to stop to regain spells and you have to be at the keyboard. With minions, you can just order them into the area and then go sit somewhere AFK while they repeatedly kill monsters as they respawn. Another thing is that while experienced wizards can easily earn gold in other ways, the lower levels can't and some of the minions they have access to are much more powerful than they are, so they might be tempted to use them as ATMs.

Rhangalas used a pair of deep troll bodyguards until around level 30 or so... needless to say, the purchasable troll minions got nerfed. -_-

[Maetha]

Don't you have to take part in a battle to obtain XP from it? I mean, realistically if you're farming for gold- I doubt minions are the best way to go about it with spells like Storm of Vengeance, Chain Lightning, et all.

As long as you are in the same zone you will get XP from group kills I think, I've never tested it. The difference in using AOE spells to farm gold and pushing minions into aggro areas is that you will eventually have to stop to regain spells and you have to be at the keyboard. With minions, you can just order them into the area and then go sit somewhere AFK while they repeatedly kill monsters as they respawn. Another thing is that while experienced wizards can easily earn gold in other ways, the lower levels can't and some of the minions they have access to are much more powerful than they are, so they might be tempted to use them as ATMs.

Rhangalas used a pair of deep troll bodyguards until around level 30 or so... needless to say, the purchasable troll minions got nerfed. -_-

It just seems very inefficient in source. And that makes me a bit sad, honestly- since I love the whole skeleton army necromancer schtick. Especially when beautiful spells like Vampiric Touch, Wail of the Banshee, and etc exist in the stead of "Me and my two SKELETAL MINIONS MWHAHAHAHAHA"

... Done now.

[Yemin]

My experience is that I've never gotten xp from standing around while my group killed stuff.

I only seem to get xp per damage dealt as in the help file. hence why my wizard with low strengthe even in groups back in the day leveled about a third the speed as everyone else

[Rhangalas]

It just seems very inefficient in source. And that makes me a bit sad, honestly- since I love the whole skeleton army necromancer schtick. Especially when beautiful spells like Vampiric Touch, Wail of the Banshee, and etc exist in the stead of "Me and my two SKELETAL MINIONS MWHAHAHAHAHA"

... Done now.

I agree with you in regards to necromancers and their undead servants; I was just speaking along the lines of RoE for minions. The problem lies in the fact that once you animate something, it receives the same DR as any other undead and retains most of what it had while alive (essentially it turns everything into a lich). The only aspect that a skilled animate dead changes is your ability to animate based on the level of the target.

If the skill also scaled DR and creature type (i.e. you perform animate dead and it coud become: a basic skeleton, zombie, lich, etc...) then a novice could possibly have a small legion of skeletons with equivaent power to their level. So, while they may have, say... 1/5 lvl + wisdom modifier of minions (for a newly acquired animate dead spell this would be 3 + modifier I think) it wouldn't necessarily break the game because they would be weaker than FKs current undead.

The minion system has been broken for a while though and encompasses just about every aspect of minion: ranger companions, familiars, druid elementals, summon monster, animate dead, and so on. I think most people just use them for pack animals or get small pets as props for market shenanigans.

[hasryn]

That about sums it up Rhangalas. I'd love to see some mechanics offered that could fix this. Be they hard code(which I know doesn't happen often as Marty is a very busy father!) or via qbits and item progs! Which I think is in the scope of making something viable!