Killmode stun: Undead

[Llanthyr]

While I understand IC why undead should not get stunned with killmode stun, this change raises quite a bit of grief.

I propose that we revert the change to allow for undead to be stunned with killmode stun.

[Areia]

While I myself have suffered the slowing down or outright failure of many quests because of this, I'd have to vote to keep it as is. It would just make too little IC sense to me (already a lot of things about undead mobs are a little strange), and could conceivably lead to future disagreement about critical strikes and the like which also have never functioned against these sorts of mobs in tabletop and elsewhere. Same for constructs.

[Llanthyr]

I have always advocated for a right balance between IC and fun. Boiling down to basics, this is a game, and how this mechanic contributes any way to form I cannot fathom. It also does not give any advantage to the player or the undead mob one way or the other.

This would be one of the baffling things to have if the reason is "because it makes IC sense".

[Yemin]

I think it was put in place to make fighting these foes a little more interesting. I personally don't have a preference whether this is changed or not but perhaps it might curb the want to change this if this was mentioned in one of the newbie quests? Or perhaps the snuckery fella mentions it the first time to new characters the first time they walk past him since all the dummies are constructs?

I've noticed a bunch of people, not only newer players never really cotton onto this trend until it's pointed out by another player.

[Llanthyr]

Knowing whether killmode stun works or not for undead and constructs is not the point of this post. However, since you brought up a point of "making foes a little more interesting", here is a comparison that I drew up.

How to make foes more interesting:
- Increasing spell tactics to reflect current PC spell tactics, eg liches dispel, earth reavers
- On-hit effects, eg vampires hit with vampiric touch on hit
- Increased damage from high level skeletons and zombies

How to not make foes interesting:
- Having to fight the same guy 10 times because your group can't coordinate typing "killmode nofight"
- Having your quest broken because you can't stun the mob

To elaborate, there is a time/reward curve that we need to consider. Some things are worth spending the time on because you get an equal amount of reward on it. To give an exaggerated analogy, if you spend 5 hours trying to kill a quest mob and all you are rewarded with is a scroll of magic missile, not only does it not give you a great sense of completion or satisfaction, others start to zone out as well.

Now you may think to balance out that time/reward curve, you might add a better reward at the end of it. Fair point. That however is complicating the situation while ignoring an easy fix. No one likes to back-track something that has been rolled out, but all games go through a nerf/buff stage and they always consider if something has not been rolled out ideally.

All in all, we have had time to test this out since it has been rolled out. I am proposing a review of this mechanic as it does not add anything to the game besides frustration.

[Beskytter]

Here's my proposal that might reflect the best desires of both sides to this, because I can agree with both sides after having experienced it first hand many times.

How about quest items are based on simply being in the group at all? This way, undead and constructs die like they do now, but those who need the quest item still get it. Obviously it doesn't really make sense for each person in the party to need to /stop/ trying to kill the zombie simply because Besky is the designated hitter for the team. At the same time it doesn't make sense that Besky should have to go off and fight alone because he's the designated hitter for the team.

I just seems fair that a quest item should still drop even if someone else on that team makes the kill... it isn't like an undead won't carry something simply because the designated hitter doesn't kill them after all. The same should go for basically all boss kills in my view, but that's a different topic.

[Gwain]

When the change first went live several years ago and this was brought up I believe that srd was cited as the reason. Anyway it makes no sense to be able to stun things like ghosts, zombies or skeletons. The only exception I'd make is vampires, since they hold aspects of life within them and actually sleep and wake at regular intervals they could be stunned.

[Llanthyr]

Once again I bring the point back to "Just because it is written that way does not mean it should be ported that way". Not everything ports perfectly to MUD. This is a prime example of something that does not port well.

You still can't "stun" undead as a mechanic, that gives the undead the advantage they have as an undead. But a killmode stun mechanic is purely a MUD mechanic. In the same line of argument, it would make no sense to be able to "stun" living creatures right as they are dying either.

[Gwain]

I know there are several quests that require you to kill powerful undead and doing it alone can be very difficult and doing it in a group often results in group members ending up killing the undead instead of you getting a chance to. That can be very frustrating, but usually there are ways around this, just as having group members use different killmodes or going with different formations, weapons and group sizes or dynamics. Just because you're having a hard time does not mean the mechanic is flawed. This change went live almost six years ago for the mud, it was rationalized that you can't stun undead because well...they're undead. I'm not sure what a bash or stunning blow does to them but I can't see them lying down to lick their wounds (other than the unique undeads like vampires) or losing conciousness.

Alternatively it might do to:

-Go through these areas with quests made before the change from 2009-2010 (Older quests reflect mechanics that may not be possible in the game any longer) Offering to re-evaluate these quests and update them might be in order if you have the time.

-Wait til higher levels to complete the quest in question. Or take characters with you that are closer to your own level to avoid unbalanced kills.

-Currently the mud has expanded and holds dozens of different quests and quest experiences available for adventurers. If you are having difficulties with one quest where you can't seem to deal with an undead target, you might pursue another quest line that is a bit easier and may even reward more.

-If its a faith quest, you might contact the fm or deity ic or ooc and explain your difficulties, whether its time zone problems or availability fm's are usually good for solutions.

[Llanthyr]

I don't know how long this code change has been around for, and I have obviously not had anything to do with undead for a great many years.

In point form:
1. Undead should not be stunned via power word stun, bash, stun, sleep, etc stun mechanics
2. Killmode: stun should work on undead.

Unless the the code for stunning undead as a fighting mechanic (power word stun, bash, stun) is hard linked to KILLMODE: Stun, we need to treat these two things separately.

[Yemin]

I am interested in Bes's Idea of having a group hit still continue the quest. what would that involve, a change in Q bits in general or would that mean updating each individual quest giver to give everyone in the group a q bit linked to the group leader?

In the mean time though, You could perhaps seek out some advice about fighting undead ICly. It isn't my intention to belittle your trouble in anyway but i've rarely had this problem. it may be a difference in what classes we play and usually group with or something though so just throwing that out there.

[Gwain]

<redacted>

[Llanthyr]

I am interested in Bes's Idea of having a group hit still continue the quest. what would that involve, a change in Q bits in general or would that mean updating each individual quest giver to give everyone in the group a q bit linked to the group leader?

I agree that this is a good idea and this deserves a thread of its own.

I am not sure how the youtube link contributes.

Please refrain from derailing the thread.

[Gwain]

<redacted>

[Harroghty]

Group quests are a good suggestion, but it is easier said than done.

There is a good amount of modification required to transform a quest from individual to group QBits; worse, it sometimes is not feasible because of the QBits available in the area.

[Tortus]

I think that because in a tabletop setting based on human interaction and taking turns to perform activities something is valid, it does not mean that it will translate into being valid in a MUD setting based on interaction with coded programs and a more real-time approach to activities.

In tabletop there is flexibility between the DM and the players, whereas in the MUD you are working against code, unless making an application to have your quest reset, in which case you're pitted against code again.

If because the word "stun" has connotations that make things complicated when considering spells and effects that stun, how about renaming the killmode from "stun" to "subdue", and letting it work on any creature? Surely you can somehow subdue a skeleton, if stunning it is not possible without accidentally stealing the glory of whoever was the chosen one to end it.

[Yemin]

Ah i see. So there's no way for an NPC on death to check if a specific person with a q bit is part of your group then drop it?
Sounds... troublesome

[Gwain]

If because the word "stun" has connotations that make things complicated when considering spells and effects that stun, how about renaming the killmode from "stun" to "subdue", and letting it work on any creature? Surely you can somehow subdue a skeleton, if stunning it is not possible without accidentally stealing the glory of whoever was the chosen one to end it.

I think killmode nofight gives you the control you need to not accidently kill the undead in groups where someone with you needs to instead.

[Beskytter]

Is it possible for quest item drop mobs to be looked at (when those who find them post them to bug/app forum) and changed to always run their quest item drop as long as one person in the room has the qbit needed?

[Levine]

I think having to edit the way quest mobs look at who kills them is much more complicated that what Llanthyr is actually suggesting, that is, basically changing the race files for undead to allow them to be stunned. I would personally also expand this to include all beings that cannot be stunned.

As for how IC it is for undead to be stunned - "killmode stun" is an FK game mechanic, which is purely OOC, and was designed to be beneficial. That means, going by that logic, all mobs should be stunnable, because it simply gives us less grief.

Off the top of my head, I can give two scenarios that I believe a significant number of us can relate to where killmode stun for unstunnable creatures gave us more grief:
1. Losing a precious (sometimes unique) pet because someone's fingers were far too slow for nofight/fleeing (which also, sometimes, doesn't end the fight).
2. Having a quest mob killed by the wrong person.

We here on FK have always been exceedingly skilled at dealing with things ICly if something odd happens. Granted, Areia, that it would appear odd, but I do not think RPing away a stunned target is any more difficult than RPing away an accidentally animated undead corpse (which the code allows), and I personally have suffered more grief from this unstunnable quality than benefits.

Could someone comment on the critical strike mechanics/numbers, and if changing all mobs to being stunnable would affect anything? I am not too familiar with that area.

tl;dr: stun is an fk-only concept and isn't IC to begin with, hence every single mob should be stunnable. This means fewer apps to replace accidental deaths of unique pets, and less grief all around. (all this assuming it is simply a matter of changing race files). Any IC oddities can be left to player responsibility.

Edit: inserted last sentence.