Kismet Costs for Rogues, Thieves and Bards

[Bellayana]

Alright so I have been sitting here and attempting to better myself at scribe, and I have been thinking of the requirements for some of our more advanced classes. IE: Thieves and Bards for the rogue class. Right now as it stands the cost is 200 kismet. While yes, 200 hours is a lot, well it isn't if you roleplay well and get rewarded and actually roleplay and play to begin with.

For beginning players to begin to learn this game, it takes at least a good month to learn the commands and layout of Waterdeep, let alone the realms. I myself, who has played years here hasn't seen every nook and cranny. I fear that while being a bard should take immense rp, and bardsongs are truly where it is at beyond that of spells open to every bard. I fear that thieves are being accessed too easily without giving too much. There are a lot of restrictions behind stealing and all that kind of roleplay.

I would like to propose for the rogue cost to perhaps be raised to three hundred, and a five hundred accumulated kismet check be given to join the thieves guild. I give this suggestion only as a former thief player myself, and I know how much roleplay goes into the actual act. I also wanted to get some talk going at least to see what everyone else thinks.

[Elerian]

I disagree. If its griefing you're concerned about, I think we do a pretty good job of self regulating. It's hard enough we have to deal with the kismet gate that may shy away people with the intention of rolling a rogue.

I am vehemently opposed to the 500 check to become guilded. Rogues are notoriously independent. More oft then not that first couple of hundred hours your lone wolfing it. 500 kismet is a steep price for a basic class and hindering them from their needed skillset is unnecessary.

If there are problem childs out there, more oft than not, they are dealt with and either set on the right path, or they are shunned from the community. This is a slippery slope to go down, and putting that much stress on a basic class will strangle it.

[Yemin]

I don't play FK thieves myself, could you clarify why thieves take a lot of rp?

From my tabletop experience. thieves are among the easiest characters to actually play in terms of role-play.

A thief/ rogue there tends to be some kind of outcast, or is the catch all term for a specialist who doesn't fit any of the other standard PC classes. Hence why in games in like path finder, the rogue class has one of the highest number of archetypes to differentiate these backgrounds.

Yes the rules of stealing are more than other classes have to deal with. But it is covered thoroughly in only 2 help files I think.

So apart from the difficulty of the class which from an outsider, looks like is caused mostly by it's semi secretive nature in some locations and the fact that thieves are missing a bunch of their abilities. The class seems like less work than for example. A paladin, or even wizard..

[Areia]

Thieves, I think, do tend to be fairly easy to RP as far as personality, background, etc. go. However, I do see lots of thieves produced and a fair number of those I have observed have some sort of not insignificant issues in playing the class within FK's rules. Some examples:

Hide is not invisibility. I have seen I don't know how many times thieves using hide in plain sight like it is the invis spell and randomly poofing away, most commonly to either get out of a bad (for the thief) situation or to coolify their RP in a way that goes against the rules and common sense.
Steal/plant. I feel like I don't need to explain this one, but. Thieves trying and failing to steal from others in plain sight or even while hidden, over and over again, is bad, and even worse when the thief then refuses through various means to accept the IC consequences of stealing from that huge beefy man with the sword that weighs more than they do. Also, there are concerns about successfully stealing and then not allowing a chance for the victim to regain the item, etc.
The justice system does not work in the most intuitive manner. It takes time to learn how our justice systems work, how multiple crimes can be commited through the use of one command, how dungeon sentences progress, etc.
Influence has its own set of rules much like charming spells.
Far lesser in seriousness, gouge and dirtkick do have some limitations that can be either mistakenly or purposely disregarded to the detriment of a PC/NPC who took the time to obtain gear that would guard against them.

These are what come to mind immediately, but I know as a thief player myself I could think up more instances where there is at least the possibility and temptation of rule-breaking or being plain unfair to other players. Granted, thief is not the only class prone to abuse--all are in some way or another--but in my own experience, thieves are the ones who either cause problems with their class skills/abilities or suffer problems themselves due to a misunderstanding of rules or IC processes like the justice system by far. Neither is fun or good for the game. Therefore, I also agree that 200 Kismet is ultimately very little, especially to gain all the responsibility I have outlined above. Kismet requirements in general, I think, do not tend to accomplish what they were meant to do, as shown by the high population of aasimar and genasi and the number of thieves and other high-kismet race/class combos I see out there who do not understand many of the rules and such that the helpfiles detail. I have personally felt for some time that thieves should be given an application requirement for guilding much like paladins and bards have, but an increase in the kismet requirement would be a step in what I think is the right direction, for the good of the prospective thief as well as other players and the game as a whole.

[Vaemar]

I will simply sum it up with this: if these costs had been in place I would likely have given up FK long ago. It was a pain already to wait for 200 accumulated kismet to roll my first thief, and I really considered giving up back then. Also for some races, like my favourite goblins and drow, the accumulated kismet check for rogues is already 300, which made the pain even bigger. Given that there are players, like me, who like the thief class, I see this as extremely detrimental to the game and I am therefore strongly opposed to any increase. I think 200 is already pretty high, on the contrary, and that it should stay that way only because rogues are very hard to deal with mechanically and the game is pretty unforgiving with rogues' mistakes. Starting with a wizard is a breeze in comparison. So it would be discouraging for somebody new to the game to start out with a thief and face the difficulties of the class in addition to the ones every newbie faces.

Actually the single most significant abuse of hide in plain sight I had witnessed was by a wood elf ranger that later asked for delete because he had put himself against the whole elven community. Do we put a kismet requirement for rangers then?

I too am vehemently opposed to any change to the requirements for the rogue class. I think that any change in that direction could seriously harm the game, offering no benefits whatsoever in exchange. Those who abuse already the class features at 200 hours, will likely do the same also at 500.

[Yemin]

What percentage would you say is caused by inexperience vs genuine unwillingness to properly RP the class and follow the rules.

I feel it's important to see that since a higher kismet gate won't do anything to disuade the latter and would rather increase the number of problem thieves by edging out the people who would have picked up thief earlier on just to try it out.

Dunno, this seems like a flaw in the design of how the game gives out information and how it unintentionally guides new players to not checking out the right resources for what they want to get involved in.

I feel apping for basic classes would be a failure of good game design since the app process is currently reserved for "special circumstances" or cosmetics that may be mainstreamed into the game at some later point.

[Harroghty]

Kismet serves a valuable purpose by preventing people from being set up to fail. As you said, Vaemar, it can be difficult to begin as a rogue and I would add that the accompanying frustration for a brand new player doing so isn't a good thing.

Still, kismet can only do so much. If someone doesn't want to role play after 200 hours then the fix is our responsibility as players through IC means. Failing an IC resolution, it goes to staff to enforce RP.

Staff enforcing RP can be a difficult thing and so it should be a last resort. Staff and players encouraging RP should be the norm, and I think it more effective to this purpose than kismet.

[Ceara]

There is already a high Kismet cost on these classes. To role play a bard, unless things have changed you are required to make submissions of either sings, stories or poetry. As for the thief, I have never known RP to be abused personally. Even if the person is new, people generally take them under their wing and teach them to RP properly, at least the older players used to. While kismet is earned through game time, some people never get rewarded for RP and even RP when they are alone, so we're talking about hours. Not everyone has that kind of time to spend on a game due to RL responsibilities, it is unfair to make it more difficult for them to create a class, which they may love to RP and can RP it correctly.

If you are concerned about being robbed, keep your stuff in a bag and wear it, problem solved. My first character learned that the hard way. As for other roleplay's like assassination it requires even more previous RP than a regular PK. At least it used to.

Again if a thief isn't being RP'd right they will be shunned by others, especially other thieves so I do not think that RP enforcement should come down to kismet cost and be left up to other players and Imms. Putting such a high cost is unfair to people who have limited time and do RP correctly.

[Elerian]

Thieves, I think, do tend to be fairly easy to RP as far as personality, background, etc. go. However, I do see lots of thieves produced and a fair number of those I have observed have some sort of not insignificant issues in playing the class within FK's rules. Some examples:

Hide is not invisibility. I have seen I don't know how many times thieves using hide in plain sight like it is the invis spell and randomly poofing away, most commonly to either get out of a bad (for the thief) situation or to coolify their RP in a way that goes against the rules and common sense. Steal/plant. I feel like I don't need to explain this one, but. Thieves trying and failing to steal from others in plain sight or even while hidden, over and over again, is bad, and even worse when the thief then refuses through various means to accept the IC consequences of stealing from that huge beefy man with the sword that weighs more than they do. Also, there are concerns about successfully stealing and then not allowing a chance for the victim to regain the item, etc.
The justice system does not work in the most intuitive manner. It takes time to learn how our justice systems work, how multiple crimes can be commited through the use of one command, how dungeon sentences progress, etc.
Influence has its own set of rules much like charming spells.
Far lesser in seriousness, gouge and dirtkick do have some limitations that can be either mistakenly or purposely disregarded to the detriment of a PC/NPC who took the time to obtain gear that would guard against them.

These are what come to mind immediately, but I know as a thief player myself I could think up more instances where there is at least the possibility and temptation of rule-breaking or being plain unfair to other players. Granted, thief is not the only class prone to abuse--all are in some way or another--but in my own experience, thieves are the ones who either cause problems with their class skills/abilities or suffer problems themselves due to a misunderstanding of rules or IC processes like the justice system by far. Neither is fun or good for the game. Therefore, I also agree that 200 Kismet is ultimately very little, especially to gain all the responsibility I have outlined above. Kismet requirements in general, I think, do not tend to accomplish what they were meant to do, as shown by the high population of aasimar and genasi and the number of thieves and other high-kismet race/class combos I see out there who do not understand many of the rules and such that the helpfiles detail. I have personally felt for some time that thieves should be given an application requirement for guilding much like paladins and bards have, but an increase in the kismet requirement would be a step in what I think is the right direction, for the good of the prospective thief as well as other players and the game as a whole.

I just want to take a minute to address each and every one of these:

1) Hide is not invisibility:

No its not, but, there is an active skill check against it. If you get the you are momentarily distracted and said Rogue disappears, then his skill roll beat your check roll. SRD linked below. Hiding is not just done by being sneaky in the shadows. How many times have you lost sight of a friend in a crowd, a parent lost sight of their child in a grocery mart, or even you look for someone and they are standing right next to you? Are they ACTIVELY hiding? No, you just failed your spot check IRL.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm

2)...most commonly to either get out of a bad (for the thief) situation:

You know what else does this? Walking out of the room, typing quit, or just closing the client.

3)Thieves trying and failing to steal from others in plain sight:

Ever seen a pickpocket in action?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtOQXru2lo4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG2HPtbV-80

4) ...or even while hidden, over and over again, is bad, and even worse when the thief then refuses through various means to accept the IC consequences of stealing from that huge beefy man with the sword that weighs more than they do. Also, there are concerns about successfully stealing and then not allowing a chance for the victim to regain the item, etc:

This is a procedural issue not a code issue. This can only be rectified through education, training (which all this is explained as a no no when getting guilded), shunning that character ic/ooc (ie refusing to play with them, while explaining why), or reports to the IMMs. Don't let a rare bad apple spoil the entire class. I can cite probably just as many infractions from any other classes within game.

5) The justice system does not work in the most intuitive manner:

this is systemic to the game, not the class.

6) Influence has its own set of rules much like charming spells:

And if those rules are broken then log and send it to the IMMs.

7) Far lesser in seriousness, gouge and dirtkick do have some limitations that can be either mistakenly or purposely disregarded to the detriment of a PC/NPC who took the time to obtain gear that would guard against them:

not really sure what this means, but equipment has a chance to break. If your metal visor breaks imagine how we feel when our leather repair is nearly continuous.

...do not tend to accomplish what they were meant to do, as shown by the high population of aasimar and genasi and the number of thieves:

Anything that is different or unique is desirable. You cannot compare races to a base class. Its apples and oranges. We have a high pop of Sun Elves, doesn't mean we should jack the kismet up because your tired of seeing them. As a long time rogue, I can tell you right now that we are not going around stealing all the time. In fact our RPs rarely involve theft or motivations as such. And when they do involve theft, (IE the Ardeep Gem Shard RP where a rogue lifted two of the gems, in the daytime, while successfully hidden, in a crowded marketplace of about 15+ players, and even managed to smote 'Someone accidentally bumps into $CHARACTER and profusely apologises as they make their way through the crowd.' was deemed a clean steal, and this was a long term IMM run RP(Sorry Raona )) we play by the rules.

Sorry for being long winded, I just wanted to dispel a lot of the myths and debunk what I can before we go down the road of demonizing a core class, and staple of FK/DnD games.

[Bellayana]

Sorry for being quiet, after initiating the conversation. First off I want to say thanks to Elerian for bringing up some very valid points and I know is a well role played thief character. Second, I feel thieves have to roleplay as well, their repuation is being able to get ahold of rare items. I know as Valence I stole a City Watch uniform, and was going to use disguise to pose as a Watchman. These sort of things make your thief well known for being to accomplish the difficult nay almost impossible.

I feel that yes asking for enforcement limits the staff, and takes away from them being able to push story plot through, as they have been doing (and freakin fabulous at that.) I feel that thieves are severely handicapped on FK as well, I have and will forever be a fan of the rogue/thief/bard class. Whatever the staff does decide to do with the classes, I just want to see some conversation had about how to go abo