Feat: Folk Wisdom

[Garrahk]

I am going to preface this idea by pointing out that I am aware it would benefit my character if it were put in the game, but I do think it's a good idea in spite of that. Alrighty, now on to the idea!

Folk Wisdom:
While not traditionally intelligent, some people have a wealth of sage knowledge available to them that is passed down from parent to child, or harbored within the community. While books and study may not be their forte, this pool of knowledge helps them improve themselves and survive the day to day dangers of the world.

Mechanics:
Your wisdom, rather than intelligence, becomes the stat for improving skills.

Possible Balance Concerns and Fixes:
Wisdom is the stat used for will saving throws, so allowing people to advance quickly as well as bump up their will might be potent. However, this feat would have no effect on number of known languages, and having low int does effectively lock you out of the expertise feat.
Additionally, this would cost a feat, which is a limited resource. However, if that doesn't seem quite balanced enough, it could be capped. IE, Folk Wisdom can only get you so far in life. Maybe cap the learning speed at 12 or possibly 14 wisdom, so that if your wisdom is 15+ you don't benefit any further from the feat.

....
Thoughts, criticisms? This is my first contribution, so I'm curious to see if people think something like this is necessary. I know that I would take it in a heart beat, as I am currently playing a character who is stupid, but has a certain amount of cunning.

[Yemin]

Constructive criticism:
Wisdom in the dnd sense doesn't represent being able to take in new information and understand it. So by definition this feat doesn't really make much sense.

As in your description of the fluff its knowledge passed down in one's past early years, rather than new skills encountered in the present that you have to pick up.

The mechanics are imbalanced not because of fighters, but because of clerics. Clerics don't need the expertise feat to hit a fighter's AC and surpass it and this feat would further push them up the power scale. A scale which they are already at the top of.

Personally I think the rate at which skills are learnt shouldn't be tied to any stats but to something like class.

[Garrahk]

Interestingly enough, I named it folk wisdom because that is literally what the feat is describing. Not because it was tied to wisdom. I googled the words folk knowledge, and folk wisdom, and folk wisdom was the one apparently used more often to describe this cultural pool of knowledge. Go figure.

I can see what you mean about clerics though. Still, they would have to spend a feat on it. Do they have an abundance of those to waste, or are they locked into pretty rigid structures, what with wanting to improve spells and the like? I'm still a bit too newb to have all the bits of game balance hammered out, clearly.

Also, wisdom is the stat used for things like sense motive. That skill is about more than just seeing, it's feeling someone out. Medicine and survival are also wisdom checs if I recall. Those are about more than just seeing where the tracks or damaged bits are, they're about having the knowledge to read or fix them. Also, as pointed out, wisdom contributes to your willpower. So it does have a hand in the mental game here and there. It's just a more instinctual and core part of the mental game than int, which is usually the straight up cognative bits. But I think there is enough room there for this to work, fluf wise. Balance is more the issue.

[Yemin]

Sense motive and medicine are skills, just like knowledge arcana and stealth are skills. The stats they are based on don't really reflect the skill itself but the other way around and later editions of DND have the ahem, 'wisdom' to have opened these skills up to be paired with other stats as in 5e. Lets leave the stat definitions behind though. 2 people can never agree on what exactly even strength is, let alone mental stats.

Clerics get 7 feat points I think. Unlike wizards. Clerics don't really need any metamagics whatsoever and other feats are optional. I would say the only feat a cleric actually needs to be playable is power attack. in the mid to longterm play, Or expertise depending on their build. Don't even need both.

To give you an illustrated example. There is a particular high level area that most people love to grind at. My fluff cleric who is only benefiting from 3 of her feats can clear both halves of it. whereas my wizard and fighter who are beneifiting from all of their feats cannot do half of it without resting or risk death.

Hope this clarifies, when I talk about power. I mean how efficiently and quickly can a single character murder hobo their way through NPCs and nothing else. I'm not takign into account other abilities like exploration, or rp potential etc.

[Garrahk]

I have noticed that priest and wizard buff spells are pretty much the most amazing things ever. And priests can do those, and have pretty good smashing ability, and wear heavy armor. So, yeah. I guess you're right that they don't need another feat to buff them more. Sort of a shame though.

[Thurgan]

While I do like the idea, I do agree it is...or potentially could be a little over powering.

As the system currently is. A low int does dramatically slow skill advancement. I think if one wants to play a character that is not "as dumb as a rock" then they should allocate at least a few points to intelligence, at a minimum not be negative. Chosing to play a race that is notroriously not intelligent, but instead has more physical prowess should indeed advance skill wise more slowly. Unless that player chooses to bring them back to at least average(10) or slightly above.

I have plenty of characters with an int of 12 that advance just fine with skills. You sacrifice certain things by wanting to be the strongest you can be, or hardiest you can be, or whatever the case may be. It's a give and take. There are also items that you can get to increase your intelligence through magical means to offset this a tiny bit.

Now, in regards to a few other things brought up. You definitely do not "have to have power attack" as a cleric to be playable. Thurgan for example, does not have that feat and yet he can stand toe to toe with just about anyone. As far as metamagic feats not being needed by clerics, that's too a matter of personal preference. You don't "need" metamagics at all for any class if you want to look at it that way.

You need to also keep in mind that a lot of those buffs you receive are from characters that have advanced their skill in those spells substantially, thereby they have a much higher/better/longer effect than the average joe.

All that aside, what I would recommend, would be a feat similar to mind over body. Where say until whatever level you would use say strength as your skill advancement. This would allow those types of characters to spend a feat point if they so choose and be able to advance the most common skills such as weapon and second attack etc decently well until around level 25-30 or so. Or something along those lines, I didn't honestly give it much thought...I am just shooting from the hip

[Yemin]

Well, being all things fair, if we take that tack, nobody *needs* any feats, magical items or special materials like mithril and most trades either. But that isn't helpful to part of the original request, which were asking for thoughts.

Some things will make some classes better at what they do and some things will not. And some things make some classes OP and other not.

[Thurgan]

Not trying to argue, but I'm just pointing out the contrary to your point of view. Feats are all a matter of personal preference, no single feat is "required" by any one class in order to be considered "playable". Sure some feats help a good deal, others are more for flavor. No one "needs" access to special material either or magical items. But if you spend time advancing your character, everyone can get access to those items. Anyone if they so desire can spend the time and effort to be able to mine adamantium and mithril. Anyone if they so desire can complete every quest under the sun to be able to roll around in magical items.

The big thing that differentiates characters ability wise is their skill levels, and very generally speaking, feats. And to a lesser extent their equipment that they have spent time acquiring or making through their adventuring careers.

Every class is harder or easier, more rp intensive or not, stronger in certain areas or not when compared to each other. It's all a matter of perspective. Making blanket statements like clerics are overpowered benefits no one in the long run. We all know clerics and wizards are the strongest classes in the game, hands down, especially at higher levels and when played by a competent player. However, There are plenty of things that make clerics challenging and hard in their own right. We have to remember that this game isn't about who can kill the most npcs without resting.

There are many things to consider for each class other than who can randomly clear a zone of easy to moderate npcs while grinding. Clerics have and pretty much will always be one of the best solo classes in regards to being completely self sufficient. Other classes certainly can be also, but its all in how you play a chosen class that makes them powerful.

Back to the topic at hand though. I do think that a feat similar to mind over body(which uses int as the hp modifier at low levels) would be beneficial for young characters such as half-orcs, orcs, wild and wood elves?(going off memory on who has a - to int). Using strength as the main skill stat up to a certain level, especially for strength related/physical skills. Not sure how hard something like that would be to code though. I definitely would put a level cap on it though, because it truly does take a decent intelligence to truly become extremely proficient/ master at a skill. Straight brawn only takes one so far.

The downside to playing one of those races with a intelligence deficit is that it takes longer to advance skills. It doesn't have to be that way though. One can certainly dump stat points into intelligence. It's the price one pays for wanting to be the strongest and hardiest they possibly can be right out of the gate.

Feats are a limited resource for every class, so if someone wanted to spend a feat point on something like this to help them in their younger years, then I see no qualms with it.

[Vaemar]

I definitely would put a level cap on it though, because it truly does take a decent intelligence to truly become extremely proficient/ master at a skill. Straight brawn only takes one so far.

A skill level cap, maybe, like apprentice or journeyman. Since I know already of people who stay at low levels to grind skills faster, and personally I grandmastered several skills even at relatively low levels. Meditate is one, but also languages are a good example.

But if you put a skill cap to what it allows to learn, and a low one, it won't be very useful, since mob teachers bring already to low skill levels. The idea is not too bad anyway, for what I can see, just I doubt it is possible to implement it in a way that is both balanced and actually worth a feat point, especially for a class for which feat points are precious few.

My suggestion is to get a decent intelligence on a priest, or on any other character. 14 is pretty easy to afford even for races with penalties to intelligence.

[Yemin]

argue away, I enjoy civil debate.

I made blanket statements because I didn't feel I needed to be more specific. Thought it was appropriate as the original poster mentioned he is new and didn't feel that any more detail was really necessary. I also made somewhat of a mistake. Instead of playable, replace with optimized. Feats are more important to some classes than others.

To a degree, the MUD is plagued by the race / class combination problems of 3.5 dnd. Mind over body is supposed to make up for classes, not races. and is only open to moon and sun elves. The favored class for elf in 3.5 was wizard and sun elves have a bonus to int, which makes them set to be wizards here.

In short the idea was to help sun and moon elf wizards not die as quickly from the -2 con elves get and 1D4 HD per level.

If you are playing a wizard, you are going to dump stuff into int or train it up. Or if you're not playing a wizard and have -8 int. You have far fewer skills to train in the first place and will still reach a higher proficiency in your mundain skills with an 8 / 10 int than a wizard will with a single spell in the same time because other classes have fewer *skills* and get to use them more often or do so automatically, first through fifth attack, stun, bash and weapon skills.

My opinion is that your feat idea is well meant, but doesn't really fill a need as there is no problem there to sure up.

[Harvin]

Although I like your vigorous debate about how to create best PC and who is OP or not, I believe you have gotten off the trail. First a "short" digression.
It is an RP MUD, not "best-DnD-stats" or "One-kill Rambo" PC and you are not creating a sun elf wizard, because it has the best Int combination, but because you were born into a wizarding community and your parents were of elvish descent (or other good background).

Taking my own example, when creating my PC I knew that being a half-elf I should be more charismatic (due to the elvish appearance of a half of my PC) and so I spent a point in charisma, which is in none way related or helpful to my skills or otherwise and I'd rather increase the Dex stat to benefit from higher reflexes bonus, but I took it seriously (yeah, I spent over 30 minutes only to decide if it was right for me to inrease Charisma) and now I have higher charisma, lacking now the bonus reflex, but I feel it is IC to do so and I can't even imagine it to be done otherwise.

Of course, I could have left the Charisma as it was by default, and simply put some nice flowery description of how beautiful I am and the likes But would that be fair to the the others of FK community and most importantly to myself and my PC?

And now back to the topic: I agree on what has been said and I feel no need for the new feat, but!... you can always roleplay! That is the most powerful tool! Good luck!

[Yemin]

Playing with a healthy consideration for your stats is a viable method of enjoying the game. If stats did not matter so much, then there would be no reason for feats to have stat requirements or class features like that of wizards and clerics to require having a high wisdom or intelligence. You for example, cannot even cast a spell unless you have 10+ level in int, wis or char for the respective class. Fighters would not need a high Strength necessarily, etc etc...

I mostly post this rebuttle because we have a slew of new players recently, and I feel its important not to shun this kind of play as well intended or know. It sometimes comes off as RP elitism.

In short, play however you like. Long as whilst online you follow the spirit of RP, keep to the rules and have fun.

My advice for feat suggestions can often be broken down like this.

1. Will it actually fill a need or solve a problem for gameplay
2. Will it affect only the intended target or could other classes / races gain unintended benefits from it.

IN relation to the original suggestion of folk wisdom. I've revised my thinking somewhat and now think you could probably apply it in the game if you made it Restricted to fighter archetype of warrior, thief archetype of rogue. To homelands of shadow dale and the orc camp. Lastly to Full orcs, goblins and wild elves.

My main worry was that clerics having an 18 - 20 wisdom would be able to have an easier time of it GMing their spells.

Capping a feat like this to 14 wisdom learning would more or less make it irrelevent I think. As vaemar said above. You can get a 14 int with no detriment to your fighter's stats and evne have some points left over for cha after maxing out your con and str.

[Vaemar]

IN relation to the original suggestion of folk wisdom. I've revised my thinking somewhat and now think you could probably apply it in the game if you made it Restricted to fighter archetype of warrior, thief archetype of rogue. To homelands of shadow dale and the orc camp. Lastly to Full orcs, goblins and wild elves.

I was actually thinking about this too, and it would probably be unbalanced as well. If you take away learning skills what real benefit does intelligence have? Just language slots. So for many it would be better to have wisdom + folk wisdom, than intelligence, because wisdom would give learning advantage + will saves. Definitely unbalanced, even without considering priests.

With priests it is simply overkill.

Capping a feat like this to 14 wisdom learning would more or less make it irrelevent I think. As vaemar said above. You can get a 14 int with no detriment to your fighter's stats and evne have some points left over for cha after maxing out your con and str.

Gray orc priest build with decent int:
st 18 dx 12 cn 16 in 14 wis 20 ch 8

I really don't see much of a need for the feat. A non-orc can settle for 19 wisdom and lower constitution a bit (a priest has cures after all) in order to be pretty by raising charisma. It is not that we have 70 ability points in total, we have 89 on average.