Sneak, Hide, and RP

[Aysa]

I'm bringing this conversation back up because I have seen on other threads that hide and sneak are being abused... that it's not invisibility (which it's not). However, in my experience... people are able to hear someone sneak into a crowded market square (or other crowded location) and call out the person sneaking. This has happened more than once. In a crowded square, it should be easy to "hide in plain sight" due to all the foot traffic and vendors and their things that are there. In a crowded location, again - being able to "hide in plain sight" should again be easy to do.

You need to understand that 'ThiefPC' is not just standing around, doing nothing, as if she's a part of the conversation going on in the room. She's hidden off to one side, or she has found cover somewhere in the room. So while the PC object might be in the room, standing there with everyone else... she's not "in plain sight".

Stealing while hidden, though, does bring up a curious point. How does one 'emote' approaching someone and stealing from them while hidden? From a RP stand point, it seems 'better' to not emote anything and simply perform the theft and rely on the code to see whether or not the target notices the theft.

Though, I will admit that I have not seen these skills abused. And I hope I have not abused or been lumped in with those who have abused these skills.

[Areia]

Though, I will admit that I have not seen these skills abused. And I hope I have not abused or been lumped in with those who have abused these skills.

Definitely haven't! Sorry for forgetting the "this isn't directed at anyone in particular" caveat I normally add when discussing my experiences. The characters mentioned in that other thread haven't been around for some time. I find it helpeful to bring up real examples in those kinds of conversations, but for the most part I try to keep my examples restricted to players/PCs who have gone inactive so as to try not to be a total prick.

Anyway! On topic, agreed that hiding in super busy rooms like MS should be fairly easy generally speaking. In mentioning the use of hide like invis, I was referring to instances where the thief was, say, standing right in front of my PC, in a wide-open, empty field, quite literally at spellpoint (gunpoint), and used hide to poof and sneak to leave the room without leaving an echo to be followed. Or say, using ranged attacks made between renewed hide and movement over and over to kill mobs without being remotely vulnerable to injury. Sneaking around in a bustling market, though--that's something completely different.

I admit I'm not at all perfect in considering the immediate area and circumstance when faced with a "someone sneaks..." echo. I peer around suspiciously sometimes when it's probably not realistic to do so (save for Areia, who's legitimately that aware+paranoid), but I would also say that a sneak should be careful to consider all the reasonably relevant conditions of a room before sneaking in, and especially before trying to hide when (s)he was already in plain view. (Not aiming this at you, Aysa, just speaking generally again.) Things like time of day: it might be a busy market, but it's probably going to be fairly quiet at midnight nonetheless (harder sneaking), if also more shadowy (easier hiding). So maybe then a successful listen check wouldn't be unreasonable to react to. Likewise, I would imagine, although being blind I might well imagine wrongly, that it is much easier for someone to make his/her way into and through a crowded area from a hidden spot than it would be to go from being already actively visible within and trying to sneak away from that attention.

In short, playing a thief well is a lot of careful thinking, as should be interacting with one. The degree of relevant detail differs from player to player, I think, which makes it more tricky still. For some, it is enough that the spot check succeeded, others are or at least try to be more careful. It can be a somewhat subjective area that I wish could have more detail built in for the aid of both sides.

As for RPing steal, that's always been a tricky question for me also. Use smote, and most everyone in the room will start acting suspiciously and putting things away, successful spot or no; steal without smoting, and you'll get complaints about not RPing, not being fair, etc. All that is partly the reason I decided early on that my thief wouldn't steal. It's just not an aspect of the rogue class I find worth employing when it feels so uncertain. I'll hope some long-time rogue players will chime in with their own observations.

And again really sorry for speaking so broadly in that other post. Never meant to question anyone or lump good folks in with others.

[Aysa]

I do try to pose a reason for the sudden disappearance (xxx crawls back behind the crates) before hitting 'hide and sneak' if in front of a crowd or whatever. I think there was one time I have not -- and this discussion (and the kismet discussion) have been really helpful in being mindful of such things. And when I was reading that other discussion, I didn't take things personally - or at least, I didn't feel like you were saying anything directly against me; however, at the same time... there's really not a 'This is kosher' thief handbook anywhere.

To sort of tie the two discussions together, I might have been here quite a while... but I haven't truly played a thief for this long. With the different classes, there are different aspects that are learned when playing them. And unless you have played them or interacted with them on a semi-regular basis, all the kismet in the world would not prepare you to play the different classes.