Summon Nature's Ally and rangers
Summon Nature's Ally and rangers
I would like to open the floor of discussion at the possibility of rangers receiving Summon Nature's Ally spells. It's part of there spell list as well, and it would give them a part of their kit that is sorely going unused for the most part. It tends to not be put to use due to lack of animals in the wide realms. Both in variety, utility, fitting rp, and strength. I'm not sure if any of the current ones about are immune to being claimed either if anyone might weigh in on that aspect. As an avid lover of rangers and a player of one I admit my opinion is definitely skewed. I'd love to get the imms and players to discuss this to see where it might go in both a yay or nay direction! Along with combat styles and some appropriate feats when becoming a ranger and along with this would put rangers about where they should be, but I'm not sure of the strength of the nature's ally spells companions either. So in closing what does everyone else think about this?
Re: Summon Nature's Ally and rangers
The biggest thing that made me feel kinda eh about the ranger class (I've only tried it out once) as far as the gameplay and mechanics go is that they pretty much feel like a fighter in light armor. I didn't really get the nature-y huntsman sort of feel from it that I used to get from my tabletop ranger. One of the reasons for this, I think, is the lack of viable animal companions/summons, and while I don't think adding something of that nature (:P) would give the class everything it needs, I do think it would be a fine step in the right direction. The class does also get summon ally I-IV in tabletop, so there's added reason for giving it to them here.
On the other hand, I imagine, since the spells are quite new, that they might still be in sort of testing/let's-see-how-this-performs stage. If that is the case, I'm also all for letting the druids give them a spin so that admins can consider balance/other issues before opening them up to wider audiences.
On the other hand, I imagine, since the spells are quite new, that they might still be in sort of testing/let's-see-how-this-performs stage. If that is the case, I'm also all for letting the druids give them a spin so that admins can consider balance/other issues before opening them up to wider audiences.
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Tandria
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Re: Summon Nature's Ally and rangers
As someone who's recently rolled a fresh baby ranger, I'd like to contribute by saying that the class could absolutely do with some balancing in their favour. Giving them some animal companion spells--especially the early ones--could certainly help make them a bit more effective, and definitely add to all-around roleplay for the class. The lower levels for a ranger can be slow-going, so it would be good to see them get some love.
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Yemin
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Re: Summon Nature's Ally and rangers
In my view, ranger companions nor the summon nature's ally are important in an of themselves, I'll get back to these at the end of this post.
My view of rangers is basically wilderness fighter rogues. They should be able to ambush enemies, lay traps, track down enemies and prey, survive in the wilderness and skirmish around the battlefield.
I'd say the bugs surrounding bow damage is a bigger factor than the lack of companions to the ranger experience.
This might be a nonfactor now, but I also remember a topic about rangers not being able to use stealth skills in urban areas whilst rogues couldd do so in all terrain types. If this is still the case, i feel that rangers should enjoy the same benefits. I don't see why a ranger is less capable at hiding just because she's surrounded by big buildings instead of big trees. Infact, I'd say its far harder to hide in the wilderness than it is in the city.
Fixing the quick draw feat to let you quickly switch out bow to melee would also improve rangers for me more than other melee fighters. The switch hitter who uses both ranged and melee is far more popular in the ranger class than any other martial class far as I know.
Now, to go back to the roleplay nature aspect of both druids and rangers. Its not so much the mechanical benefit that makes a ranger feel like he is part of nature per say but I think what does it for me at least, is the ability to talk to animals and plants, find herbs with minor mechanical or no benefits whatsoever and so on.
I think there is a skill that lets rangers reduce the stamina drain from world map movement for everyone in his group? With the abundance of flying magic though, people are more likely to call a wizard or priest or get a mount.
I'd rather see rangers and druids both be able to find herbs and food in the wilderness with semi useful effects. Perhaps even scrounge up spell components that would make them valuable to other classes.
Some new quests that are animal given would be neat, not to mention if they could talk to plants or animals to find things out or ask for favors. An example would be asking a bird to deliver an item that weighs less than 5 lbs to a player they know with an environment check to make sure the ranger wasn't underground or something.
And, I think that about wraps up my 2 cents on rangers.
My view of rangers is basically wilderness fighter rogues. They should be able to ambush enemies, lay traps, track down enemies and prey, survive in the wilderness and skirmish around the battlefield.
I'd say the bugs surrounding bow damage is a bigger factor than the lack of companions to the ranger experience.
This might be a nonfactor now, but I also remember a topic about rangers not being able to use stealth skills in urban areas whilst rogues couldd do so in all terrain types. If this is still the case, i feel that rangers should enjoy the same benefits. I don't see why a ranger is less capable at hiding just because she's surrounded by big buildings instead of big trees. Infact, I'd say its far harder to hide in the wilderness than it is in the city.
Fixing the quick draw feat to let you quickly switch out bow to melee would also improve rangers for me more than other melee fighters. The switch hitter who uses both ranged and melee is far more popular in the ranger class than any other martial class far as I know.
Now, to go back to the roleplay nature aspect of both druids and rangers. Its not so much the mechanical benefit that makes a ranger feel like he is part of nature per say but I think what does it for me at least, is the ability to talk to animals and plants, find herbs with minor mechanical or no benefits whatsoever and so on.
I think there is a skill that lets rangers reduce the stamina drain from world map movement for everyone in his group? With the abundance of flying magic though, people are more likely to call a wizard or priest or get a mount.
I'd rather see rangers and druids both be able to find herbs and food in the wilderness with semi useful effects. Perhaps even scrounge up spell components that would make them valuable to other classes.
Some new quests that are animal given would be neat, not to mention if they could talk to plants or animals to find things out or ask for favors. An example would be asking a bird to deliver an item that weighs less than 5 lbs to a player they know with an environment check to make sure the ranger wasn't underground or something.
And, I think that about wraps up my 2 cents on rangers.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!
Re: Summon Nature's Ally and rangers
Being a ranger is more than simply being a woodland warrior as well. Rangers walk all sorts of life be they sailors that patrol the seas. Sea elves that hunt the depths. The svirfneblin of the underdark or that odd halfling that might stalk the sewers and keep it secure from threats most cities wouldn't realize can form. That said.. it wouldn't fix them completely but it would allow them to use there beast master type archetype and side. Especially for those that would chose the archery combat style. These spells would help them atop of getting the combat styles and any feats they get by default would put them at where they should be. Unless the animals the spells summon are a bit on the tough side, but comparing the spells a druid can get and balancing it against the less spell caster side and more martial side of the ranger it should even out pretty well. This is all from conjecture and my understanding of how other type of spells might function.
Re: Summon Nature's Ally and rangers
What is the stand point from the imm's side on this out of curiousity. I understand the spells are a quality of life thing for druids, but in the same stroke. Druids are stronger than rangers even without them. They also belong in there kit and it would shore up the animal companion side of there kit that is hardly ever used. For fear of losing them in combat. It's hard to manage when combat is automated and this would be a big push in the right direction until the class itself can get it's bonus feats like endurance(I believe they don't get it at time of being set to ranger? I'm unsure as It's been awhile since I've done the quest.) Along with there combat styles being implemented via hard or a soft code work around. Along with having more than one of the favored enemy at max level it would be five total. Seeing as the terrain can't really be equated into a mud easily, but rp can reflect that.
Re: Summon Nature's Ally and rangers
I know this is a few months old, but rather than go start a new thread for it, I will add my opinions here.
So, since my first (and main) character on FK is a ranger, I've given this some thought. The issue, for me, is less, "Hey, I want this cool thing for my class. Oh, and here's why it makes sense, too." and more one of, "I want this thing I already have to work well."
I have tried two methods, so far, of bringing animal companions into my ranger's world: buying pets, and claiming animals. In both cases, even with whatever minor buffing and healing I can do, the animals get torn to shreds quickly, even against relatively minor enemies, like orcs.
For pets, that makes some sense, as they are low cost, and are meant more for RP. But, when using Animal Empathy to coax a wolf or a bear to fight by my side (which is a core component of the ranger class, historically) it seems to make less.
From a mechanical standpoint, it seems to not be worth the effort at all, since I claim an animal and it dies 5-10 minutes later in the first battle I bring it into. From an RP (and thus, more important, imo) standpoint, it is worse, because what good, nature-loving ranger or druid is going to willingly ask an animal to fight with him/her when he knows it's basically a death sentence to the animal?
Now, I haven't yet purchased a griffon/giant eagle/other super-expensive steed, and perhaps they would fare better in combat. But it just seems like an integral part of the ranger/druid experience is not really viable for use.
(If I am missing something somewhere, please do let me know... this is all just based on my own experiences so far.)
How could this be fixed? I have some suggestions, though I acknowledge up front that I don't know how hard these would be to implement into the game's code.
- Perhaps a ranger or druid can get an animal companion in the same way paladins get steeds? And they could function similarly, in terms of being called and dismissed, but only when out in nature, and the process for obtaining a new one if the existing one is killed could be similar. Also, unlike the paladin's mount, maybe it isn't something that could be ridden. Like a standard-size badger, or dog, or wolf, or cougar, etc.
- Glory/kismet/lots of platinum could be spent to purchase an animal companion, which would be a stronger version of a standard animal, like a bear or wolf. This would only be available to rangers and druids, and would not necessarily be the same as buying one of the big steeds. Like it could be a standard wolf, or a brown bear, or a coyote, or a hawk/raptor of some kind, etc. etc.
- Sure, Summon Nature's Ally spells could work, too. Though I don't see it as being the same, since a summon, which either dies or goes away when the spell's duration expires, is not the same as having a companion.
Anyway, I just wanted to throw some thoughts out there, as this is the one thing that sticks out at me as keeping the ranger and druid from being their iconic selves.
So, since my first (and main) character on FK is a ranger, I've given this some thought. The issue, for me, is less, "Hey, I want this cool thing for my class. Oh, and here's why it makes sense, too." and more one of, "I want this thing I already have to work well."
I have tried two methods, so far, of bringing animal companions into my ranger's world: buying pets, and claiming animals. In both cases, even with whatever minor buffing and healing I can do, the animals get torn to shreds quickly, even against relatively minor enemies, like orcs.
For pets, that makes some sense, as they are low cost, and are meant more for RP. But, when using Animal Empathy to coax a wolf or a bear to fight by my side (which is a core component of the ranger class, historically) it seems to make less.
From a mechanical standpoint, it seems to not be worth the effort at all, since I claim an animal and it dies 5-10 minutes later in the first battle I bring it into. From an RP (and thus, more important, imo) standpoint, it is worse, because what good, nature-loving ranger or druid is going to willingly ask an animal to fight with him/her when he knows it's basically a death sentence to the animal?
Now, I haven't yet purchased a griffon/giant eagle/other super-expensive steed, and perhaps they would fare better in combat. But it just seems like an integral part of the ranger/druid experience is not really viable for use.
(If I am missing something somewhere, please do let me know... this is all just based on my own experiences so far.)
How could this be fixed? I have some suggestions, though I acknowledge up front that I don't know how hard these would be to implement into the game's code.
- Perhaps a ranger or druid can get an animal companion in the same way paladins get steeds? And they could function similarly, in terms of being called and dismissed, but only when out in nature, and the process for obtaining a new one if the existing one is killed could be similar. Also, unlike the paladin's mount, maybe it isn't something that could be ridden. Like a standard-size badger, or dog, or wolf, or cougar, etc.
- Glory/kismet/lots of platinum could be spent to purchase an animal companion, which would be a stronger version of a standard animal, like a bear or wolf. This would only be available to rangers and druids, and would not necessarily be the same as buying one of the big steeds. Like it could be a standard wolf, or a brown bear, or a coyote, or a hawk/raptor of some kind, etc. etc.
- Sure, Summon Nature's Ally spells could work, too. Though I don't see it as being the same, since a summon, which either dies or goes away when the spell's duration expires, is not the same as having a companion.
Anyway, I just wanted to throw some thoughts out there, as this is the one thing that sticks out at me as keeping the ranger and druid from being their iconic selves.