The Thieving Game

[Johara]

This is in reference to a post that was originally posted here...

viewtopic.php?f=72&t=22925&p=148331#p148331

I've been monitoring the "play" during the first couple of days to see how things are going. Is the event working like I envisioned in my mind? And not really. I'll share some of my own observations in a moment, but I would like to address what was posted. I'm not disagreeing with what's being said, but I want to offer my take on things.

1) This event came with a HUGE OOC warning that people would try to steal, take, manhandle, whatever the rose that's in your possession. So I don't think any of the thieves should have given an OOC heads up for their actions. One of the issues that I have with OOC warnings are when thieves are trying to ambush or do something where their presence is undetected -- if they have to stop and announce their OOC intentions, then the element of surprise that they were hoping for is gone.

To continue on this tangent, the thieves do actually have an RP reason to be stealing from PCs. Whether that reason has been shared with you or not, that remains to be an IC discussion; however, I think it's clear that the rules regarding OPP are being adhered to as they are ONLY stealing the roses.

2) I definitely wanted to encourage RP with this event. However, I'm torn in this regard. A successful theft would mean they would have to 'roleplay' taking it. A hidden thief, or a thief that uses the crowd of the market place as cover... that thief may never have been seen. So a pose may not necessarily be required. If the theft failed for whatever reason, then I would definitely demand a failed pose. But for the thief that's able to be successful, how do you pose a 'hidden pose'?

And mind you, thieves grind these skills just as much as fighters grind their fighting skills. Not just the weapons, but dirtkick, parry, riposte, etc. However, at the moment, the only "thrill" they get for using these skills are on NPCs. So, a thief who spent time honing their hide skill, their sneak skill, and their steal skill should be given a moment or two to use these skills to their fullest.

And on the flip side, there are a number of ways to counter these things. Wizards can cast that ghostly watchdog. There's the glitter dust spell. Or even a pouch of gold dust. Things like that can help deter thieving. Not to mention, there's nothing to stop PCs from honing their spot and listen skills which would make thieving that much more difficult.

--- My own thoughts ---

3) Originally, I was kinda upset when someone immediately made an assumption as to who a thief would be; however, I thought about it some more. Some people have a reputation for being a thief, a crook, or whatever, and they ought to deal with those reputations. So tying back to #2, this is another IC ramification of thieves doing their thing. They have to live with their reputations proceeding them. It was nice to see someone wanting to do something about the thieves... "rounding up a posse" is kinda what went through my head when I was listening to the conversation. And I thought, that would be fun to see. I'm not sure how things are progressing on that regards but it's interesting never the less.

4) My own observations, though, have seen some of the short comings in the event such as the number of participants who are the "appointed" victims. And then the fact, they may be on the grid, but the grid is HUGE and unless the thieves know where to look, they may never stumble upon someone who is an "appointed" victim. It hurts even more when you're expecting more participation (on either side - both 'appointed' victims and thieves). I'm not blaming anyone for that part. We had as much as can be expected, but in reality -- it's not as significant given the size of the grid, and the size of the player base.

So these are things that we need to work on. I applaud everyone who has been playing (and is still trying to play since the event is still on-going).

Your comments, observations, thoughts, and such are certainly welcome. Understand that I'm trying to build an environment where thieves can truly be thieves, but not necessarily in their favor. After all, involving the Law makes things just as exciting as allowing thieves to get away with everything.

[Althasizor]

1) This event came with a HUGE OOC warning that people would try to steal, take, manhandle, whatever the rose that's in your possession. So I don't think any of the thieves should have given an OOC heads up for their actions. One of the issues that I have with OOC warnings are when thieves are trying to ambush or do something where their presence is undetected -- if they have to stop and announce their OOC intentions, then the element of surprise that they were hoping for is gone.

But they're not hoping to catch people by surprise OOCly, are they? A thief character's intent is to catch another character by surprise, not the player. Is the suggestion that thief players are so inherently bad at RP that they have to rely on not giving the other player a chance to interact with them in order for them to pull off their chief specialty? You can still catch a character off-guard while getting their player in on the fun.

2) I definitely wanted to encourage RP with this event. However, I'm torn in this regard. A successful theft would mean they would have to 'roleplay' taking it. A hidden thief, or a thief that uses the crowd of the market place as cover... that thief may never have been seen. So a pose may not necessarily be required. If the theft failed for whatever reason, then I would definitely demand a failed pose. But for the thief that's able to be successful, how do you pose a 'hidden pose'?

Objectively incorrect in every conceivable facet. The fact that they're suspended in some sort of "hidden" state on its own demands explanation. If they're "hidden" in a crowded market, they absolutely need to explain themselves when they move across that crowded market to steal something out of someone's hand. Again, are our expectation of thief players so ungodly low that they can't be expected to sling out a simple "ducks behind an unattended crate, strafing prone along the outer edge of the market", or even "mOvEs ThRoUgH a NeArBy CrOwD"?

It wasn't an assumption that I knew who the thief was, I know the thief is. Just because I'm not going to namedrop the player doesn't mean I can't voice an OOC frustration with their incredibly poor actions.

I've actively played a thief character for a very long time now, and I'm honestly incensed by everything in this post. The assumption that I can't be expected to do my job without removing another player's agency is ridiculous. That fighter who grinded his "fighter" skills can't haul off and start murdering people in the market and expect no backlash. We shouldn't be offering any allowances to thieves who can't imagine anything more creative than mindlessly typing 'steal rose (player)'.

[Harroghty]

No one stole Harroghty's rose. That's probably my fault for keeping it in the first place; I know the staff connection can be weird for some. I finally had Harroghty give his rose to another PC to put it back into play though and I consider that a lesson for myself.

I only mention this to say that I think such events always provide lessons on how to do things better in the future. Good job soliciting feedback!

[Lirith]

Nobody stole Aoife's either. I was pleasantly surprised that someone tried to get it via RP means and didn't just steal it without me noticing. The fact that they got it is because they made the effort to at least try, and I'd encourage anyone else involved in the "other side" of the event to try that way too.

[Johara]

The fact that they're suspended in some sort of "hidden" state on its own demands explanation. If they're "hidden" in a crowded market, they absolutely need to explain themselves when they move across that crowded market to steal something out of someone's hand. Again, are our expectation of thief players so ungodly low that they can't be expected to sling out a simple "ducks behind an unattended crate, strafing prone along the outer edge of the market", or even "mOvEs ThRoUgH a NeArBy CrOwD"?

So, people would be ok with a thief that's hidden to offer up a smote that reads "Someone runs through the square, ducking in and out of passerbys and using the crowd as cover"? Or are you expecting more "details" in the smote?

I've actively played a thief character for a very long time now, and I'm honestly incensed by everything in this post. The assumption that I can't be expected to do my job without removing another player's agency is ridiculous. That fighter who grinded his "fighter" skills can't haul off and start murdering people in the market and expect no backlash. We shouldn't be offering any allowances to thieves who can't imagine anything more creative than mindlessly typing 'steal rose (player)'.

Should we also then expect every fighter to pose a swing of their sword? I would not think so, because the code does some of that for us. As for ramifications, I would think that some of the IC reaction should be handled by those who were wronged. If you suspect someone ICly, then make the accusation. Or go vigilante. After all, the OPP rules do state that you're entitled to a chance to get your property back. I mean, you may have to have proof to accuse someone of a crime -- and I understand your concern that you weren't given a chance to have proof. But even if someone posed 'Someone move through a nearby crowd' as you suggested, you still wouldn't have proof.

And as for the person trying to simply RP taking Aoife's rose, I give a kudos to them (Whoever they are/were)! I do love to hear that the event is promoting a sense of RP.

[Althasizor]

I'm not sure what you mean. They can't possibly add more details to the smote, because the smote didn't exist in these multiple scenarios. 10 x 0 = 0.

Conflating this with "but you don't expect a fighter to pose every swing of their sword" is intentionally dishonest, and to be kind I'll remove this sentence if you'd like to edit your post to exclude it.

Expecting people to handle this in any IC way is unreasonable, because nothing was ICly done to them, and you've completely misunderstood how steal is supposed to function if you think otherwise.I can only speak for myself here, but this has certainly put me off attempting to engage in any way with this event, the "totally definitely fantastic hunt RP!!!!!!" that we're apparently supposed to be excited about, the player involved in the win scumming, or any future events hosted by someone who publicly defends that kind of behaviour. Your entire point hinges on the assumption that I shouldn't have the agency to respond to the person robbing me. The fact that you can't imagine a world where someone "plays dumb" and allows their character to be robbed - after intentionally entering themselves into a contest where that was the entire point - is just disappointing, to me, speaking as a more experienced thief player.

If you're happy with this level of lacklustre play from longtime veterans who long ago should have but never did learn to RP, that's your prerogative, more power to you, enjoy whatever satisfaction you and your friends can possibly squeeze out of that in private. But keep in mind that you're playing an RP MUD and (IMO) shouldn't be publicly encouraging a style of play that completely does away with RP. It sets a terrible example to new players to come into the game and see this, especially those for whom participation is mandatory.

[Johara]

Althasizor, I think you missed my point. What would have been acceptable to you? If the thief was allowed to use the hide code, and the steal code... but then smoted "Someone runs through the crowd, ducking behind a crowd of people" or would you want 'Someone is hiding amongst this group of people. Someone waits for the opportune moment and grazes against <victim> as what might happen in a crowded environment. While grazing <victim>, Someone manages to use his awesome thieving and pick pocketing skills and is able to lift the rose from <victim> without <victim> ever knowing!"?

And I'm going to use a documented example of what I mean. Watch the movie Ocean's 11 with George Clooney, Brad Pitt, and Matt Damon... and a cast of others. Watch the scene with Linus (Matt Damon's character) is introduced to the movie. He's on the "L" in Chicago. He's standing relatively close to a man in a suit. The train causes people to shift their weight. Matt Damon is able to steal the man's wallet. The director had to slow down the film to actually show that it was being done. HE WAS BEING FILMED, and it required the film to be slowed down in order to truly capture it. They talk about the scene in the documentary portion of the film.

I've been to many trade shows where one of the booths had a "magician" perform. He was there to attract attention to the booth. He'd get people involved in the act. Under the eyes of many people, this "magician" was able to steal watches from people, and then slip it on to his own wrist. He would even have the audacity to ask the person he stole from "Do you like my watch?" "You do? Great, because it's yours". If I were to pose the magician's act, it would be hard to describe the sleight of hand used without fully revealing that the theft is happening. I'm not saying it can't be done, but that it would be very difficult. The art of the pickpocket is that you don't know it's happening, even while it's happening.

Do I like the fact that a thief can simply sit hidden somewhere, type a command, and then disappear? No, it seems rather "clinical" to me. But at the same time, I'm not sure how a thief is supposed to use his skill in hiding, in sneaking, in stealing by offering up a pose which would eliminate his element of surprise. The steal code does do a check between the thief's skill and the victim's spot skill (and probably some other things), as a young thief will tell you that many mobs will cry out 'So and so is a bloody thief!'. So it's not like the code allows the stealing to happen automagically. I told you from the beginning that I'm torn in this regards.

So since you are a long time thief, tell me how you would do things differently? It is my current understanding that you would be ok with them doing what they did, as long as they added a smote while hidden. If you were robbing someone in the square, what smote would you have used? Pretend you are this thief in question. Help me understand what a long time veteran of playing a thief would do. Please remember, too, that there is a 'delay' in the steal command. The thief can't perform some actions as the action of stealing creates some physical exertion that can't be overcome (you even get an echo when you try).

[Althasizor]

I didn't miss your point, and I already told you how I would do things different. If you'd rather sit here and explain how you saw something in a movie once or there was a magician that existed, rather than addressing what I actually posted, I'm not sure what good another detailed post would do here. The film slowed it down. The audience saw what happened. I'm not really sure what's being lost in translation here. There is a certain amount of RP expected of any given character interaction. Stealing something from another person especially so.

As for what I would do in their exact situation, I wouldn't have at all. I would approached the situation in a vastly different manner. I wouldn't have sat hidden in the market, I would have approached the person. I would have run some kind of scam, or an accidental run-in, or some other far more creative way than what this single tool did to 3+ players. Or if I did decide to play the 'hidden' game, I would have smoted it, yes. I would have made at least 3 smotes signalling my intent, and allowing the other player an opportunity to play dumb, or give some indication that they're in on it - To pose where the rose currently is or some such, something to inform what my actual theft will look like - Otherwise known as RP, something that a simple 'steal' command completely removes.

Can I just ask you then, why didn't you host this event with NPCs? Why didn't you give items out to random mobs around the city, if you want a smaller 'grid' to play in, and you don't expect any better of your 'thief-side' players than logging in, checking MS, hitting 'steal' and leaving again? You clearly defend a stance against player interaction, so I'm genuinely confused why you even invited people to 'participate' in something when you clearly desire zero participation from them.

[Johara]

My intent of the party was to allow a variety of methods and means for the roses to be acquired. A con artist could have scammed them out of the roses. A thug, who lacks the wit to pull off a scam or the sleight of hand skills, to simply bash someone over the head and mug their victim. Or... a pick pocket to use stealth and acquire it without being noticed. My intent was for new thieves and old to get to play their character. My intent was for that those who had roses to do something to protect their roses, or react to whatever happened on the grid. I didn't think this "code issue" was going to cause such an uproar.

The reason why I brought up the movie and the magician is to illustrate my point of the pick pocket, and how easy it is for them to use sleight of hand, lift something off a person without even being noticed. The reason why I defended their position is because you are clearly entrenched in your own that you refuse to acknowledge even some of the RL examples of pick pockets, and how posing their actions would defeat the purpose of their actions. The code is based off your character's stats and the thief's stats. So I can see their side of the argument. You, obviously, can't.

So what I'm going to take away from this conversation is that I need to devise a better event. You are clearly going to simply believe it never happened, and be "done" with the event. That kind of reaction was never my intent. I'm sorry that your spot skill sucks, and I'm sorry that the thief hid out in the square, and didn't pose his position or his intent - alerting people to a well hidden thief. I'm sorry that you don't approve of this kind of tactic for thieves. I'm sorry that this event is creating this much chaos. I was hoping for a different outcome. On the bright side, I can learn from these mistakes and move forward.

Fini from me.

[Althasizor]

Sure - or you can admit you're just a friend with the player in question, alerted him to the fact that someone with a rose entered the square -as he very conveniently logged on just for that purpose - and thereby deliberately helped him cheese a competition that was never actually a competition to begin with. But sure, blame my spot skill, and not the fact that said player is notoriously *terrible* as a roleplayer, and refuses to defend himself in the public forum when confronted about his poor abilities. Thanks for answering the last paragraph of my post, which was a question, by the way. That's very intellectually honest of you.

I suppose it's a lot simpler to put the burden of blame on someone else, and not yourself for refusing to take back the ill-gotten roses and "reset" the event as any rational human being would do, rather than pushing forward to reward someone for "playing"(if you can call what he does that in a roleplaying mud) in a manner completely antithetical to the normal rules of the MUD.

The only reason I put this to public forum rather than a complaint is because I assumed you as the showrunner wouldn't approve of this and could at least offer some word of disagreement toward the way this "player" torpedoed your event and any credibility you had as an event runner. Seeing as the "style" of theft you're so determined to defend is in complete opposition to the rules as stated in multiple helpfiles, which I attempted quite benignly to point out to you in my very first post to your "event" thread.

But right. Surely the fault is on my reaction to it, and not you for defending what would be by any other event runners' - or rule-abiding players' reckoning, a cheater.

[Mairenn]

So, my opinion!

You specifically mentioned you don't want this to be a "might makes right" kind of event, which I find a little unfair if you don't reign in the thieves with rules like you gave rules to everyone else. Unfortunately, your targeted audience was mainly composed of people who weren't just going to let this happen, even over a silly rose. Your defense of thieves is nice, but you know what? My rose would be in my hand (AT YOUR REQUEST it was in the inventory, I would've protected it otherwise, if you had not set such a rule) and as I mentioned before in another area, a thief would have to cut my hand all up with the thorns to pry it from my fingers, it wouldn't go 'smoothly', thus giving me a chance to defend myself and my belogingings. That's not the same as someone taking something from a bag discretely.

And so, just like there are rules in place to spar and such (like you don't want a bloodbath) then thieves should've had rules in place as well. Sometimes people want to RP, that's what the market center is for, and I get it, it's a large place, thieves everywhere, but it's a little unfair and easy for the thieves to just have a field day in that area. So maybe not allow them to steal in that specific place (ONE ROOM) would've made it harder on them and more probable for others to have a chance at keeping the item, because... keep in mind, with the rules you set, it's harder on everyone else due to it requiring to spar/stun or rp, instead of just a check, which apparently A LOT of people fail at. With that said, a so-called RP event shouldn't rely on code for some things and not for others, it just isn't fair to the playerbase and those who are graciously trying to help you out and support your rp by adding their character and giving their time to your rp necessities.

Despite it being a good try, I'd look for ways to improve, else you'll have more people bow out of the events in the future.

[Benorf]

I have a couple of thoughts, here.

In a normal situation, I would be against just using steal freely. However, it seemed pretty clear to me that this event was for the -thieves- and not for the people with the roses. If you managed to get by with a rose, neat! But that wasn't the real purpose. This was an opportunity for rogues to actually use their skills they generally aren't allowed to use otherwise freely.

That being said, when my rose was stolen, there was no indication of a rogue in the area. I checked my inventory before I left Waterdeep, and it was gone later in the day. Which means someone was just hidden and stole it. I would have preferred some sort of RP to go along with it, but I understand the point of this event.

And finally, on the matter of holding the rose... There are -countless- videos on youtube of magicians and sleight of hand performers that do the impossible. People can steal your belt, pick your pocket, take your wristwatch... It's all about the distraction. So even thinking you're keeping a tight hold on something? This is D&D. We're supposed to believe people can cast magical spells, but not that they would be better at sleight of hand than real world counterparts? It's hard to remember that this is a game, not the real world.

Long story short, I think both sides here have valid arguments. I do believe there should have been NPCs with roses to be stolen, but I like the idea of having PCs in on it too.

[Johara]

Mairenn,

I do thank you for the feedback. I did notice how you wanted to round up a posse to find the thief - and I so loved that. "Somehow" you lost your rose, and you believe you knew who did it and wanted to do something about it. That was the RP that I was envisioning for those who lost their rose. Or, not all of the thieves are GM at steal - so there was a potential for a young thief to fail his check. That, too, would have caused an IC reaction.

But as I said from the beginning, I was torn. I could see both sides of the argument - thieves being able to use skills that they just have no opportunity to use otherwise versus roleplay. I took an aggressive defense for the thieves when an aggressive offense was being delivered by the opposing side. If the argument would have come the other way, I would have taken the other side just as adamantly.

So I get it -- the people who lost their roses feel cheated because they would have liked an opportunity to keep their rose. I, personally, feel like using the hide code, sneak code, and the steal code was well within their rights. HOWEVER … it's also clear that this kind of event needs some severe re-tweaking if it's truly going to be successful. And I'm open to suggestions on how to make it better... so far, I've heard the thieves need to smote their intent/presence... and the thieves need to steal in a room that's not the market place.

[Johara]

Benorf,

Thank you for seeing both sides of the argument. You are where I am - trying to find balance for a class that's under-utilized. Pickpockets in RL are simply amazing. I was watching one video. The guy even TOLD HIM what stuff he was going to steal from him, drew him up on stage, and then proceeded to do exactly that - and the guy on stage even being told what was going to happen, still "let it happen" -- which is why I think the use of code for hide/sneak/steal is valid.

And I did consider planting roses on various merchants -- though my fear there was I wasn't sure how long the rose would stay in the NPCs inventory before it disappeared.

My own downfall was that I was worried about arranging something for the thieves, and handwaving the opposing side in my mind. For that, I apologize if people were hurt by the thieves who stole without a smote or a pose or notice of some kind. Obviously, I'm looking for ways to improve this type of event.

[Althasizor]

So I get it -- the people who lost their roses feel cheated because they would have liked an opportunity to keep their rose.

Yea, no, you completely missed the whole point. :/

[Johara]

And I'm just throwing this out there, so people can see where I'm coming from...

Right now, thieves don't really have a "reason" to steal. The rules already reign them in as it is. Thieves end up not practicing their trade of THIEVERY because there's no point. They wind up being a weaker version of a fighter. They focus more on backstab, and strive for the thieves bonus feats of crippling strike and arterial attack. Thieves are more than thugs, and I'm trying to get that balance. It would be like a fighter who spends all that time learning how to fight with a certain weapon, but the only opportunity to use it was on dummies - never in "real combat". It would be like a wizard who spent all this time learning a spell, and training hard with it... only to learn that his components for the spell only work while in "train mode".

As the FM for Mask - a religion DEVOTED to thieves, I'm trying to come up with ways for thieves to be thieves. Obviously, I failed this time around. And I send my gratitude to everyone who has been patient and understanding during this first attempt. With this failure, the event is basically a wash... no one wins on either side. I'll go back to the drawing board and see what improvements can be made.

There were some thieves that had a lot riding on the event -- PM me, we'll deal with another solution. You're not going to be penalized because of my failure.

[Johara]

So I get it -- the people who lost their roses feel cheated because they would have liked an opportunity to keep their rose.

Yea, no, you completely missed the whole point. :/

No, I do get it... if they would have roleplayed their theft instead of using code, you would be ok. Because they didn't roleplay their theft, you were cheated out of an opportunity to RP - which could have resulted in you keeping your rose.

[Mairenn]

Benorf,

You're right about the thievery, but I'd have to be distracted And when you're literally typing inv every 2 seconds, that's not being distracted lol. And it's valid to look at the rose every so often, because RP wise I don't want my petals falling off and me turning into a rat! Yugh! Bless the Sunites.

And it makes sense that the event was for thieves, that might have been very obvious to you and others, but not everyone is always on forums, or always on the OOC scene to assume that this person leads this faith or to say that this event is for this. I go to X event, expecting to participate in the way it is described to be and discard things I'm not supposed to know, yet it's cool that there was a second part in it for others.

Johara,

I don't want to reveal too much of my RP and reaction of my character off the mud itself.

[Johara]

At the request of some people... the event is still on-going. I'm not going to call it a "wash".

Thieves who have a lot riding on this event, please PM me anyway.

[Mairenn]

Hey J,

Sent you some thief suggestions over PM, I'd be glad to help you with more ideas in the future, even though my expertise is really on stealing hearts. Hah!

And thanks for your efforts, thank you everyone for your efforts.