Illusionary Pit vs Mass Hold Person

[Simossus]

What I witnessed was the MUD policing itself in the latest USE of the spell 'Illusory Pit' in a tournament setting. The initial application of it was perfectly sound in my book; as the spell came later into the relative progression of the fight and was not the 'go-to' first response. The repeated application after the target failed to make his save is what made the situation notable. Even had the fighter - with a lower base will save - succeeded in making their initial save, I think the situation would have progressed much as it had in the reality we know.

It was not in the best of taste to some folk and they made that known. The fighter had taken their two rounds to beat the snot out of the near defenseless wizard and the wizard was undoubtedly in that 'holy-crap-we're-all-going-to-die-let's-GTFO spell' realm of possibility. A roll or two different in the fighter's swings may have mangled an arm or stunned the wizard outright.

The classic fighter did as he was meant to do and the classic wizard did as he was meant to do.

[Areia]

Ya, agreed. Like I said, the re-raising of this suggestion didn't really have anything particularly to do with that PvP. I'd meant to raise it ever since that incident we won't talk about, and honestly before even then. I just tend to get occupied with other work etc. and forget to post. No hard feelings or anything like meant toward anyone. Mostly it served as a reminder.

[Simossus]

Ya, agreed. Like I said, the re-raising of this suggestion didn't really have anything particularly to do with that PvP.

Ah, my apologies. I didn't see that part. The timing of it coincided with the recent event in the tournament.

[Yemin]

I'm not entirely sure that its really that difficult. to fix.

As far as I've read, been told and observed, there are tools to apply custom effects to PCs, but there is no stock prone condition though so stunned was used in place for things like the pit and earth reaver.

What earth reaver really should be doing is applyin its own custom effect called earth reaver that lasts a very short time and gives you -4 AC and -4 hit roll if you fail the save. The save at least I've seen to be working with this spell.

I think illusory pit can be fixed by simply reducing the duration to about 3 seconds. I don't believe there's any need to change what condition it applies etc.

I do hold the opinion that something is devastating is usually not a very good basis for change. But evidently there are strong feelings about this spell, I don't get into pvp that often and a very rarely use it in comparison with other spells so I dont' really have a dog in the fight if it should get changed.

[Hrosskell]

After further review of the spell's d20 counterpart and further testing, I do agree that damage should likely have the same consequence as the tabletop version--an additional single round of stun, then freedom. Fly, immunity to illusion should also negate it if it does not--my testing led me to believe that those checks were in place.

That being said, in FK's current state and compared to other popular spells, Illusory Pit does not strike me as imbalanced. This is an argument that others are floating that I feel should be thoroughly refuted, so here goes:

Earth Reaver -- does moderate damage AND applies a 1-round stun AND is of a lower sphere so it is more easily spammed and meta-magic'd for effectiveness. If you apply a -DEX/REF effect, stunlocking with this spell is actually laughably strong and easy. It handily beats Illusory Pit here.

Weird -- does moderate damage in the event that it does not kill, and so far as I have seen operates as "mass phantasmal killer." Phantasmal killer has long been known not to force both saves, but rely only on Will. Cahir has died to the single and AoE targeted versions of this far too many times for it to default to a Fort save. If there is any imm confirmation or test realm experience that defies this, I'd love to hear it.

Orb of Fire -- All of earth reaver's glory, except they don't even get to save--and there's no risk of incinerating, pummeling, or scaring surrounding citizens to death. It can MISS, but again, there are ways to drastically improve the accuracy of this spell. Unlike Illusory Pit, it has a single counter spell that must be applied and not dispelled before the barrage.

This is just the icing on the cake. There are a number of other spells equally disabling or traumatic. In a world where a number of single, lower-level spells can entirely disable a caster and where myriad spells can instantly, easily kill anyone that isn't a priest, a long-duration stun being a problem strikes me as inconsistent with the surrounding environment.

[Skylar]

Those other spells really could use fixing too. Well. The latter two could. Earth reaver seems to work about as well as mechanics could allow at FK.

[Simossus]

I'm not entirely sure that its really that difficult. to fix.

As far as I've read, been told and observed, there are tools to apply custom effects to PCs, but there is no stock prone condition though so stunned was used in place for things like the pit and earth reaver.

What earth reaver really should be doing is applyin its own custom effect called earth reaver that lasts a very short time and gives you -4 AC and -4 hit roll if you fail the save. The save at least I've seen to be working with this spell.

I think illusory pit can be fixed by simply reducing the duration to about 3 seconds. I don't believe there's any need to change what condition it applies etc.

I do hold the opinion that something is devastating is usually not a very good basis for change. But evidently there are strong feelings about this spell, I don't get into pvp that often and a very rarely use it in comparison with other spells so I dont' really have a dog in the fight if it should get changed.

The stunned condition attributes -2 AC and the loss of DEX bonus and, obviously, unable to take action. The condition set here on FK is differs entirely as I already mentioned - it mimics a coup de grace in which grants automatic melee hits and automatic criticals. Coup de graces in FK should be applied to targets paralyzed under spells akin to hold person/monster, sleeping targets, already unconscious targets or, I would argue, a shield bashed target.

If you're changing earth reaver at all, why not correct the current iteration of illusory pit? That seems a break in logic to me. Not that difficult, by your own words. :sardonicsmile:

Earth reaver - reflex save, 1/2 damage save
- prone condition applied on failed save.
- target uses action to mimic a 'get' to 'stand' to provoke an attack of opportunity
- target is applied with -4 AC & -4 to-hit for 3 seconds or 1 round

Illusory pit - will save partial
- save applies stunned (No action, -2 AC & no DEX bonus) condition for 1 round
- fail to save applies prone (-4 AC & -4 to-hit) condition for 1 round per caster level unless damaged
- damage ends prone condition and are set to automatically stand which provokes a melee AoO.
- flying targets that fail are stunned for 1 round
- targets with 'true sight' see through the illusion and are unaffected

I, myself, am of the opinion that there has been a power creep in FK - and not in the PvP sense. There have been some wicked NPCs. Incredibly pieces of code, no doubt there and a healthy level of praise towards the coders for it, but I think there is a need within FK to clean and perhaps add on spell files and the group/formation/rescue system.

[Yemin]

I don't think the pit should affect flying creatures at all. If you know you're flying and you see a pit, its not goign to do anything to your sensibilities.

As for the fix, I just assumed reducing duration would be easier than applying a custom effect, but either or really. I was simply pointing out that some things are difficult and others easier and while its usually better to be on the side of caution and politeness with these things as in essence we're asking someone else to work for us for free. It is what it is. Far as I know its more due to restraints of time rather than anything else that keeps changes from being implemented.

In lue of this though, thanks for all the good work thus far folks.

[Talos]

Do note that builders and game coders are often not the same people, and thus it is not a case of effort spent at the cost of the other.

[Areia]

Ya, so in general:

Hard code is relatively rarely changed (not a complaint, only a description of reality as I believe it is), and while, as we've seen especially lately, a lot of really incredible things can be done with area code given lots of time, creativity, and dedication, it is still ultimately bound by the hard code, which itself is what defines things like spell effects etc. in most cases. As I understand it, though, someone does have the ability to disable various skills/spells, just like what was done with acid fog for instance. And while I'd never even think to call for that measure as a permanent solution to these sorts of things, I have over time come to appreciate that sometimes it is necessary to avoid temporarily both purposeful and accidental exploitation of questionable code. Thus I suggested the above, to disable/whatever illusory pit until it can be mended.

I don't believe I've seen one person argue that the spell works either as intended or in any balanced sort of way. It is arguably consistent within our array of magic, though I'd say even that is a vast overstatement since at least things like earth reaver etc. have a save and last only for one round even if the save fails, whereas pit lasts well past eighteen-ish with one cast, they don't do what they're meant to do, either, and consistency is not the same as fairness. Spells that have had this status in the past (e.g., animate object, acid fog, invulnerability globes [not actually sure on the latter, but you get my point]) have been temporarily silenced; the precedents are there, the need is there, and additionally I couldn't see not having it as game-breaking. In fact, not having it would probably make the game more challenging and interesting for some, which, call me as you will if you will, I find to be a good thing.

As a brief off-topic p.s. re: phantasmal killer/weird, because I'm not sure it's worth spamming the board with yet another spell thread to answer just a quick question:

My experience with these two spells is... rather extensive, playing both a mage who favors illusion and an illusionist proper who's GM'd the one. There are four possible outcomes with these spells:

first, nothing at all happens due to SR/death ward/mind blank/etc., and that is what happens when you see:

A lodestone glows briefly.
A flask of water glows briefly.
a rogue demon lord sees through your illusion.

Second, the target successfully disbelieves the illusion (will), and again nothing happens:

A lodestone glows briefly.
A flask of water glows briefly.
A shadowy shape forms before a husky baphitaur.
A shadowy shape forms before a husky baphitaur.

Third, the target fails will but succeeds fort, in which case damage is taken but no instant death:

[...continued from above...]
A shadowy figure forms before a husky baphitaur.
a husky baphitaur is slightly scratched.

A lodestone glows briefly.
A flask of water glows briefly.
A shadowy figure forms before an ogre.
an ogre has a couple of severe gashes.

And finally, the target fails both and dies instantly:

A lodestone glows briefly.
A flask of water glows briefly.
an ogress collapses after screaming in absolute terror!
An ogress is DEAD!

Notice too the difference in echo between outcome 2 and three; it's a small difference in words but it shows you, along that damage is taken in one but not the other, that different things are happening. Through seemingly endless hours of testing, I've seen things with fair to high will resist fully, things with fair to high fort just take damage, and rogues etc. die outright., leading me to believe that they're working as intended. The same things happen with phantasmal killer, though naturally it's harder to get to hit because much lower level. Even fighters will fall often enough (often enough to make fighters notice, though generally not often enough to make it really reliable) to weird because it's a ninth level spell, which means the DC is somewhere around 26 or 27 depending on feats, or sometimes even higher if a super intelligent NPC is casting it, giving most top-level fighters anywhere from ~20%-~50% fail rate (that is to say, not at all an insignificant one even with 22 fort) depending on stats etc. Just like fighters fall often enough to wail of the banshee cast by a spellfocused necromancer despite their high fort.

[Yemin]

Out of interest, how do you actually work out the Dcs for FK spells? Is it skill rank plus spellcasting modifier +1 for spellfocus?

[Areia]

In general, as a baseline I use D&D's definition, 10 + spellcasting stat mod + spell level + misc things like +3 for heighten and +1 for spell focus. I actually made a point of testing it ad nausium on my illusionist because DCs are so important to them, and it seems to hold fairly true here, keeping in mind that I can't manage to do an infinite number of tests as true probability theory requires. Extremely low proficiency levels might have a negative impact, but honestly from roughly apprentice to GM, the only thing that changed noticeably with her illusions (illusory pit, phantasmal killer, shadow binding, color spray, and nightmare are the ones I managed to test through that long) were duration and damage if any.

[Yemin]

Fair enough, thanks.

Is that something we think should be looked at as well?

Currently it sounds fair to me since the weapon skills only make your hits more likely to hit and don't necessarily add damage. At least, not that I've seen.

So it may not make sense for a skill increase to also increase the Dc.

But I'm curious on people's thoughts.

[Enig]

Experience notwithstanding, phantasmal killer and weird are only checking will saves.

To double check that nothing was being done on a level I can't see I made a character on the test port with 23 fort saves and 0 will saves, survived zero out of ten casts of both spells.

[Areia]

That's... odd, given the different effects shown above. I wonder if maybe they're just checking will twice instead of will then fort, and damaging if the second check succeeds or... something.

...I'm running out of properly functioning spells to rely on.

[Enig]

My best guess is that it has to do with the fact that weird has multiple effects. The examples you gave seemed to be with weird, and I'm guessing you weren't able to achieve them with phantasmal killer? So, ie. some of the effects are triggering, but not all, perhaps the damage is being resisted somehow.

Anyways, I wouldn't necessarily say not to use these spells. They're powerful, but given the limitations on them I wouldn't say they're game-breaking or anything, PvE-wise (especially since some/quite a few mobs have much higher stats than PCs can achieve). I'd recommend they be used sparingly against PCs, but I'd make that recommendation for any instant death spell.

Re: skill level affecting spell DC

Effective caster level is a combination of spell skill and character level. I don't see why skill increases shouldn't affect DC. Argument might be more convincing when greatswords require components to use.

[Hrosskell]

First I would like to say thanks for the test port findings. This echoes Raona's old report (that he never finished, despite being very thorough back then). I have assumed since collaboration on that report that the fourth echo is not a fort save but a partial damage resist or miss like orb.

Second, I would like to point out that ECL is more equivalent to damroll, and DC is equatable to hitroll (it replaces attack rolls in non-aimed spells). There is a very fundamental mathematical reason the damage squares and the hit doubles regardless of spell or swing in D20--affecting saves, attacks or any check is bound to the d20, damage is not. Any unnecessary additions to these checks outside of traditional methods would very, very quickly imbalance the system. Breaking it down further, DC progresses roughly equivalently to BAB (10 base gives a nice, large boost, but it ends 1 short):

10 + x per spell level = 19 max level + primary stat (int / wis) + feats (spell focus) + some magic items / school spec
1 -- 20 progression BAB = 20 max level + primary stat (STR / dex) + feats (weapon focus) + some magic items

No skill, neither weapon nor Nth Attack, currently provides a discernible bonus to hitrolls; it could be said that skill in Nth Attack increases damage by making the skill fire more frequently until GM, where they fire automatically.

...I'm running out of properly functioning spells to rely on.

To be direct, Areia, this is in large part the genesis of passion in my posts not only on illusory pit, but also animate dead. Changes to spells are very, very tumultuous here--because they happen infrequently, and because their usage is woven into a fabric of a number of imperfect implementations. One spell will always be very powerful, and when it is nerfed, others will rise up to then be nerfed down. It creates a slow power creep away from wizards, who I honestly feel are very balanced today compared to times in the past. That a fighter can beat any caster in a duel is amazing to me, but it also stirs me to defend the profession as much as I once did the humble warrior.

[Raelikh]

Just throwing this out there, yet another example of how this spell is completely broken.

An illithid mastermind approaches you and prepares to engage you in combat!
An illithid infiltrator approaches you and prepares to engage you in combat!


Your slash tears open an illithid mastermind's chest.
an illithid mastermind has a few small cuts.


You score a critical hit!
Your slash minces an illithid mastermind's abdomen.
an illithid mastermind is covered in cuts and bruises.


Your slash minces an illithid mastermind's tentacle.
an illithid mastermind is bleeding from several injuries.


Your slash minces an illithid mastermind's tentacle.
an illithid mastermind is bleeding freely.


You duck under an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap.
The illithid waves its tentacles menacingly!
The illithid invades your mind, "All is forsaken, give up..."


Your slash minces an illithid mastermind's tentacle.
an illithid mastermind has several traumatic wounds.


You duck under an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap.


You duck under an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap.


An illithid infiltrator viciously tentacle slaps your right leg.


You duck under an illithid mastermind's tentacle slap.
The illithid waves its tentacles menacingly!
Someone sounds like you saying 'Autack me, the illithid has control of my body! You have to knock me out now or i'll kill you!'
With a sickening sound an illithid mastermind's tentacle slap breaks your right leg.


An illithid mastermind's tentacle slap firmly hits your left leg.


An illithid mastermind plants a tentacle slap to your right arm.


You duck under an illithid mastermind's tentacle slap.


Your slash minces an illithid mastermind's tentacle.
an illithid mastermind has blood gushing from several grievous wounds.


Your slash tears open an illithid mastermind's chest.
an illithid mastermind is leaking heart-blood.


An illithid mastermind ducks under your slashing attack.


An illithid mastermind ducks under your slashing attack.


An illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap brutally hits your chest.
The illithid waves its tentacles menacingly!
An immense pit begins to open up in the ground!
With a flurry of motion an illithid infiltrator tentacle slaps your left leg.


With a flurry of motion an illithid infiltrator tentacle slaps your head.


With a flurry of motion an illithid infiltrator tentacle slaps your left leg.


With a flurry of motion an illithid infiltrator tentacle slaps your head.


With a flurry of motion an illithid mastermind tentacle slaps your left leg.


An illithid mastermind's tentacle slap strikes your chest.


With a flurry of motion an illithid mastermind tentacle slaps your left arm.


An illithid mastermind's tentacle slap strikes your chest.


With a flurry of motion an illithid infiltrator tentacle slaps your left leg.
The illithid waves its tentacles menacingly!
The illithid invades your mind, "All is forsaken, give up..."
With a sickening sound an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap snaps your left arm.


With a sickening sound an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap breaks your left leg.


An illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap brutally strikes your abdomen.


An illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap firmly strikes your chest.


With a sickening sound an illithid mastermind's tentacle slap breaks your head.
The illithid waves its tentacles menacingly!
Someone sounds like you saying 'Attack me, the illithid has conrrol of my body! You have to knock me out now or i'll kill you!'

config +prompt
config -prompt

An illithid mastermind's tentacle slap brutally strikes your chest.


An illithid mastermind's tentacle slap brutally strikes your chest.

Ok.

72% 62%Ok.


An illithid mastermind's tentacle slap brutally strikes your chest.


With a sickening sound an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap snaps your left leg.
An illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap brutally strikes your chest.


With a sickening sound an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap snaps your head.


With a flurry of motion an illithid infiltrator tentacle slaps your right arm.


An illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap brutally strikes your abdomen.


An illithid mastermind's tentacle slap brutally strikes your chest.
The illithid waves its tentacles menacingly!
Someone sounds like you saying 'Attack me, the illithid has convrol of my body! You have to knock me out now or i'll kill you!'
With a sickening sound an illithid mastermind's tentacle slap snaps your right arm.


With a flurry of motion an illithid mastermind tentacle slaps your right leg.


With a sickening sound an illithid mastermind's tentacle slap snaps your right leg.


An illithid mastermind's tentacle slap brutally strikes your chest.


With a flurry of motion an illithid infiltrator tentacle slaps your left leg.


With a sickening sound an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap snaps your right arm.


An illithid infiltrator plants a tentacle slap to your chest.


An illithid infiltrator plants a tentacle slap to your chest.


An illithid mastermind's tentacle slap brutally strikes your abdomen.
The illithid waves its tentacles menacingly!
The illithid invades your mind, "Creature.... fear us..."
You cannot move!
With a sickening sound an illithid mastermind's tentacle slap breaks your left leg.


With a sickening sound an illithid mastermind's tentacle slap snaps your head.


An illithid mastermind plants a tentacle slap to your chest.


An illithid mastermind plants a tentacle slap to your chest.


With a sickening sound an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap breaks your left leg.
The illithid waves its tentacles menacingly!
Someone sounds like you saying 'Attack me, the inlitgid has control of my body! You have to knock me out now or i'll kill you!'
With a sickening sound an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap snaps your head.


With a sickening sound an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap breaks your right leg.


With a sickening sound an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap snaps your left leg.


With a flurry of motion an illithid infiltrator tentacle slaps your abdomen.

config +prompt
config -prompt
Ok.

40% 62%Ok.


With a sickening sound an illithid mastermind's tentacle slap snaps your right arm.
An illithid mastermind's tentacle slap brutally strikes your chest.


With a flurry of motion an illithid mastermind tentacle slaps your abdomen.


With a sickening sound an illithid mastermind's tentacle slap crushes your right arm.


With a flurry of motion an illithid mastermind tentacle slaps your left arm.


With a flurry of motion an illithid infiltrator tentacle slaps your abdomen.
The illithid waves its tentacles menacingly!
The illithid invades your mind, "All is forsaken, give up..."


With a sickening sound an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap snaps your right leg.


An illithid infiltrator plants a tentacle slap to your abdomen.


An illithid infiltrator plants a tentacle slap to your chest.


An illithid mastermind plants a tentacle slap to your chest.


With a flurry of motion an illithid mastermind tentacle slaps your abdomen.


An illithid mastermind plants a tentacle slap to your chest.


With a flurry of motion an illithid mastermind tentacle slaps your left arm.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!


With a sickening sound an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap snaps your right leg.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!


With a sickening sound an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap snaps your left arm.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!


An illithid infiltrator viciously tentacle slaps your chest.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!


An illithid infiltrator viciously tentacle slaps your chest.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!

supp recall
You do not have enough favor for such a supplication.


With a sickening sound an illithid mastermind's tentacle slap snaps your right arm.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!
The illithid waves its tentacles menacingly!
The illithid invades your mind, "Sleep.."
With a sickening sound an illithid mastermind's tentacle slap snaps your right leg.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!


With a flurry of motion an illithid mastermind tentacle slaps your chest.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!


With a flurry of motion an illithid mastermind tentacle slaps your chest.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!


With a sickening sound an illithid mastermind's tentacle slap breaks your head.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!


With a sickening sound an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap snaps your left leg.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!


With a flurry of motion an illithid infiltrator tentacle slaps your abdomen.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!


With a flurry of motion an illithid infiltrator tentacle slaps your chest.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!


With a sickening sound an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap snaps your head.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!

flee
You prepare to flee ...
With a sickening sound an illithid mastermind's tentacle slap snaps your left arm.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!


An illithid mastermind viciously tentacle slaps your chest.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!


With a sickening sound an illithid mastermind's tentacle slap snaps your left arm.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!


With a sickening sound an illithid mastermind's tentacle slap snaps your head.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!


With a sickening sound an illithid infiltrator's tentacle slap crushes your head.
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!


With a flurry of motion an illithid infiltrator tentacle slaps your chest.

...Everything begins to fade to black.

No other spell in the game does anything near what illusory pit does, and it does not even do anything like what it is meant to do in tabletop. That is, to fecilitate distraction/retreat, not to completely incapacitate top-level PCs for twenty-something rounds (if not more, I have yet to be able to have it last long enough before my test subjects die that it actually fades) where they cannot flee, cannot attack, cannot even be feared away, and suffer both automatic hits and automatic crits from every attack made against them, without any way at all to get out of it once it succeeds.

[Althasizor]

I don't think it's the balance monster portrayed, here. It's super easy to avoid/counter for any PC above level 20 if they're bothered to, and it works the way it does because the code here works the way it does. Distraction would be a meaningless effect when the next automatic round of combat breaks it. Spells like these need this 'buff' when going from tabletop to FK (As in, when you have the choice to either gut a spell or be generous with its effect, edging on the side of generous) because we also make the assumption that fighters are always within 5 feet of their d4 target.