Smotes and hiding and not enough roleplay with steal?

[Blug]

Alright, I did this to prove a point, all of my characters actions were IC, and there was some OOC discussion upon it during such time. For the sake of safety, I'm not going to name any names.
It was said not too long ago that one needs to roleplay stealing...
Slinking through the crowd, walking through a crowd, slinking up behind said person, whatever...
However, I went to the market square and quite simply used the hide skill...
now this experiment was, at first, thwarted because someone with detect hidden came along and started a small confrontation because I was hiding...
After the confrontation was quelled, I returned to hiding a little while afterwards.
I did some things that would be silent, in particular, moving my legs, to which one of the characters within the square yelled "Show yourself!"
How this character wuld have known that my thief, a thief mind you, and going to be quiet about this, was moving his legs, I do not know...
I talked to this person OOCly, through otells and osay, and this person said it quite clearly...
If you're going to be hidden, don't smote. Now, this might just be my misconception, but...how are you supposed to smote stealing something silently, through any means at all, if, at any point that your hidden character smotes something, everyone in the room is going to scream "Show yourself!"?
This isn't designed to be any form of an attack at anyone, no, this is to hopefully rectify some things about hiding. And, the said person who scraemed "Show yourself!" is honestly a good RPer, and I have participated in several good RPs with them.
My question is this..
How can someone hear/see what is hidden?
This person, through Otells, said simply that it came up upon her screen and therefore she saw it, and her character saw it. My philosphy is that it's not what YOU see but what your character sees that makes the difference. Now then, thank you for taking time to listen, back to your regularly scheduled programs.

[Balek]

I would agree that you can hide and smote without giving yourself away, as long as the smotes are quiet, unobtrusive actions. In other words, thieves shouldn't push people, slap people, talk, run around, play a drum, or anything else of that nature while hidden.

The responsibility in this situation is with the people who can see the smotes and should really be ignoring the silent ones. I know from experience that it's fairly annoying when you do a quiet smote and everyone in the room jumps at the opportunity to out the hiding person.

I'm not a believer in the philosophy that if it's on the screen, your character knows about it. If someone is walking around behind your character, your character can't see that, even if it's on the screen. If someone is lurking in deep shadows and he happens to cover his mouth when he's yawning, other characters can't see that.

[Elvoriel]

For the sake of talking about this type of roleplay, I will reveal myself as the person who spoke OOC to the hidden party, as I wish to offer constructive input to this discussion.

In this case, some of the smotes were more than just silent gestures and although the description of Waterdeep square says its crowded, there was only one or two more pc's there at the time.

Not only were there smotes that hinted at a hidden person lurking through, but a hidden person actually revealed himself and talked to those in the square. Then this person left, and not long afterwards there was more movement and sounds around the square coming from a hidden source.

I am sorry, but to some types of characters ie. Helmites, Tyrians, and Paladins would take note and be on the lookout of suspicious characters. Smote and emote are used to tell people IC what your character is doing. You dont see everyone smoting they are blinking, or going to the toilet. Some things are just taken as granted.

If you are hiding, and moving around somewhere like a crowded square, some things should also be granted, like you are yawning if you are tired. However, if you emote you yawn, then you are telling my character I heard a yawn. Perhaps if the square, really was crowded, I would miss the fact that you yawned behind me, but if someone yawned behind me in real life, I would turn to see who it is. Perhaps I would disregard it if I couldnt see the person, but my character wouldnt.

I hate to say there should be more code for this, but perhaps there should be more npc's wandering the square, and even the npc youth to have the hide/sneak ability in use once in a while, to help stimulate the atmosphere. Not that Waterdeep has a plague of thieves running around...

Anyway, I just got up and was drinking last night during this situation, perhaps I didnt see everything I think I thought I saw.

[Argentia]

Don't forget, just because there are one or two PC's in the square doesn't mean it's empty. It's crowded at all times of day and night with merchants, travellers, citizens, ect; that's why the description says it's crowded. This is just taken for granted like Elvoriel said. So, don't forget that just because there aren't any mobs or PC's in the square, it could still be crowded. =)

[Nysan]

My thoughts, nothing more.
Town Squares and Market Places: Full of action and movement. People buying, selling, trading, chatting, ect. Merchants selling wares (and watching their wares due to the occassional theft). Town Watch/Guards watching the progression, keeping the order.
In short, I think it is POOR RP to try to hide in such a place because...well, there is no place to hide. Someone's always there and always watching.

Second, is this about the hiding and smotes or setting up to steal in WD? I got confused sort of with the posts. If this is about hiding and seeing smotes in general, yes I agree that 'silent' smotes should be ignored as the colorful rp it is. If this is about setting up to steal in WD, you're not allowed to do that anyways. *Shrugs* So, whats the complaint?

There it is. An opinion of one person. Thats all.

N.R.

[Blug]

This is about hiding and smotes, and stealing, altogether. My thief doesn't steal often, and there's a good reason for that. It's an IC reason as well, however. My point is this, just because the smote says that "someone yawns" doesn't mean that you heard it. also, you're exactly wrong. A crowd is the perfect place to hide, and someone sitting behind a box away from view, or someone sitting in an empty merchant's stall behind the counter is not likely to be seen by anyone unless they literally charge into the merchant's stall with them. The action of moving his legs was the silent one that I indicated, yawning is as well somewhat silent, as well as mumbling to one's self. The market is crowded, just as stated, and as such there is going to be very little way you could hear a yawn, or a mumble amongst the bustle. The point of this post was to point out WHY thieves don't RP steals, and that being that if this came up "Someone moves in and out of the crowd quietly, glancing about." then instantly a dozen people would shout "show thyself!" and to me, that's just poor form.

[Balek]

Not only were there smotes that hinted at a hidden person lurking through, but a hidden person actually revealed himself and talked to those in the square. Then this person left, and not long afterwards there was more movement and sounds around the square coming from a hidden source.

It doesn't matter. It's well within the realm of possibility that a person could talk to someone, walk away, and come back to hide behind a merchant's stall. The square is a large, crowded place. If someone yawns, you probably can't hear it. If you can hear it, you probably don't pay attention to it unless you're doing nothing other than concentrating on hearing small, odd sounds. If you're in a conversation or doing much of anything, you're not concentrating on hearing things.

...some types of characters ie. Helmites, Tyrians, and Paladins would take note and be on the lookout of suspicious characters.

They may be watchful, but if you can't type 'look' and see the person, and the person has made no loud or obtrusive smotes, then you don't see them. If you take something like a yawn in the middle of a crowded square and turn that into a manhunt for a thief, that's poor form.

If you are hiding, and moving around somewhere like a crowded square, some things should also be granted...if you emote you yawn, then you are telling my character I heard a yawn. Perhaps if the square, really was crowded, I would miss the fact that you yawned behind me, but if someone yawned behind me in real life, I would turn to see who it is. Perhaps I would disregard it if I couldnt see the person, but my character wouldnt.

I don't follow your logic here. If someone is standing in front of you and they smote a yawn, you might miss it, but if someone is standing behind you and hiding and they smote a yawn, you persue them until they reveal themselves? A smote is not something you are guaranteed to notice, it's something someone does. It's your responsibility to say to yourself, "That person is hiding, his action was not very loud at all, 99% of the time a person would not notice that." The fact that someone takes the time to type out smotes like that is not a bad thing, it adds something to the game, in my opinion. It adds atmosphere, it makes things a little more real.

I hate to say there should be more code for this, but perhaps there should be more npc's wandering the square...

I don't think that additional NPCs are really needed. The description of the square says that it's a crowded place. If there were enough NPCs in the game to make every room as crowded as it would be in real life, I think it would probably severely degrade game performance (in other words, lots more lag). Just assume that if the description says that it's crowded, then there are lots of people there that are just assumed to exist.

[Kirkus]

There was a time long ago when we had a problem with npc's running in and out of the square. I personally didn't have a problem with it but that is only because I don't sit there for exteded ammounts of time. But I did understand how that could be annoying. Anyway, we elected to cut back on the number of npc's that come into the square. They end up messing with a lot of peoples computers. I oocly hate sitting or rping in the square because there is so much going on (such as the limmited number of npc's comming and going, multiple conversations, just to name a few) that my computer can't handle it. It all starts to blur together is the best way to describe what happens, my vt dissappers and commands that I type don't scroll they just sit there and new lines will pop in and out all willie nillie.

The point of all of that is to say, we don't need more npc's. It is a market. You know the market is going to be crowded, no matter the time. If I were to go walk down town, at 12:00am to 1:00 am there would be people everywhere.

I think everyone just needts to look at the smote and say to them selves....
" In a crowded, noisy, square would I, in the middle of my conversation be able to hear that guy hidden inside a barrel on the other side of the square sliently snap his fingers, snicker, grumble, cough, sneeze......"