Priests of Kelemvor and Undead

[Serge]

I was wondering why Priests of Kelemvor get Create Undead, and not Raise dead/Resurrect. I'm certain that Kelemvor does in fact not have the death portfolio, which contains many evil spells like Create Undead. Instead I believe he has the repose portfolio, which focuses on the resting aspect of death.
Pluse Kelemvor hates undead, so why would he grant his followers the ability to create them.

Just food for thought
Serge

[Urival]

Hhmm, this seems strange to me as well. It seems as Kelemvor is the judge of the dead he would give his priest the ability to deside if someones time to die or not has come (raise dead). As far as create undead this is very odd unless kelmvor lends these "false" to aid his priest, witch i still dont really see. Im at a loss on this one.
ryanC
-To quick on my toes, for the average foes -

[Rhelian]

Kelemvor would NOT give his priests the ability to take people from the realms of the dead and grant them life. As god of death, he wants the natural cycle to continue, not be interrupted willynilly by priests. But he wouldn't let his clerics create undead either.

[Cret]

Also Kelemvor does not just merily hate the undead he pities them also. Except for litches, witch choose to be the undead. These he hates above all other undead. I would think that Kelemvor being the Justice of Death, would not alow his followers to create undead, but give them the skill. Thus being that the knowledge of the creation will help in its removal.

Though.. well.. sure.

[Serge]

I don't think one needs the spell create undead to deal efficiently with undead. I think that's what Turning is for. Regardless, create undead is an evil spell, and the help file of kelemvor specifically states "Kelemvor unlike previous gods of death is not evil". I don't really think there's any other argument. There's no point in priests having a spell that is totally against the faith's RP to use.

Serge

[Isaldur]

Here Is the answer to your questions and beyond.

-Use common sense-

Your spell list has a spell you don't think is proper for that priestly type? Alert whomever with your concerns via E-mail and then use common sense and do not cast that spell. It need not turn into a big debate or argument because in the end the coders and owners have final say.

-Isaldur

[Mingus]

None of my priest have counter, but it would be neat to counter someone animateing the undead. Although I know that 4 different religions don't have counter so i doubt the rest do. Oh well silly thought...

[Serge]

I'm pretty sure only arcane spells can be countered. Not sure, I'll have to check.


Serge

[Mingus]

Just like cret said, You may have the spell and train it to max but the situation when you'll use it will never arrise. Take my dwarven fighter, he has concentration. For what purpose? *shrug* for the same reason you have animate, just filler skills/spells that have no purpose whats so ever...

And what logic, my ranger doesn't have it and he can cast spells.

[Lathlain]

I've never had a priest character before, so this may be completely wrong, but judging by the 'guilds' page on the website, you need to be a certain level before you can use 'turn undead' and 'create undead'. Does this mean it's a trainable skill and not presented to the priest along with the amulet of faith?
Why, then, do you train it? To train something requires that you do it constantly, even if the game doesn't actively make you do it when working with a trainer. In this sense, for a priest of Kelemvor to have the create undead spell even at inept level should be enough of a crime to have them thrown out of the church.
As Isaldur says, use the ol' noggin! If someone offers to train you in a spell that is obviously against everything that you stand for, then consider it a test from your god, and refuse to have anything to do with the trainer in question!
Everything your character does is IC. If your invoker is afraid of fire (hypothetical ), don't train fireball! If your fighter is a paranoid freak, don't train concentration! In an accurate representation of the forgotten realms, someone of fighter orientation should be able to learn to sneak, as should a priest of any faith be able to create undead. It doesn't mean you are required to in order to fulfil yourself

[Serge]

Yes, you can simply restrain yourself from casting a spell in your spell list.
But, suppose a newbie created a priest of kelemvor, and learned create undead someday. He uses it, and get's in trouble for it, by either his peers or his god. What will he say? Why does my lord grant me this power, if he doesn't want me to use it.

Serge

[Isaldur]

Consider it a test of loyalty if you really want to. Use it and be unloyal to Kelemvor, don't use it and be loyal. There's nothing hard about it.

[Stayne]

I can see were Serge is coming from. While most of us who are intimate with the D&D world expect everyone to be, that is unfortunately not the case. I know alot of people come here to try out RP in the Forgotten Realms, and thus have little or no knowledge. To this end we should not punish them. I believe what we need to hear here is that if giving priests spells that are faith contrary as a test, then the test should be to teach priests more about their faith through RP, not to punish them as many replys suggest.
Such things could be logged to the Diety or HP, thus allowing them to handle a training RP at some time. To new players - or even old players learning, such attention, makes this game much more enjoyable than many months down the track finding out you have been RP something wrongly because you lacked sufficient information.

Just a thought
S

[Talos]

Yes, many people don't know the reams of info on FR, but if you're going to play a priest, you should do some research on the god you want to follow. There's enough resources on the net that this is not unduly taxing. Moreover, in the course of being quested to follow, it should be the case that the hopeful gets 'quizzed' on such things as this, to ensure they know all the basic tenets of the faith. I know this may not always happen as it depends on the owner of the deity in question. There's really very little excuse for ignorance about the basic tenets of your faith in most cases.

[Mikhail]

I agree with Talos and say there is little or no excuse at all for not knowing at least the very basic tenets of the faith. This isn't like real life where we may be dragged to church when we do not wish to go. Here we have to think on and choose a faith and then get quested for that faith. We choose to play faithed characters; ergo we are actively choosing to learn and adhere to the tenets of the faith. Priests should be especially knowledgable as they are the sources of counselling and advice within a faith as well as a 'direct line to god'.

While we try very hard to make new players welcome - even going so far as to limit Waterdeep to a nice RP only area - we also expect them to learn and abide by the rules and this includes learning about the world in which they have chosen to live.

To me, this question is a 'gimme' (as much as I loathe that term). Kelemvor wishes the dead to remain so and the natural cycle of life (which includes death) to continue. Thus, as Rhelian said, his priests would NOT use it. At all. Nor would they get raise or resurrect.

Email the admins with your information and/or opinion about the inappropriateness of this prayer for priests of the dead.

--Mikhail Lerouge

[Stayne]

Talos and Mikhail - what you both say is true, but I know it is not always possible just from personal experience. Anyone who knows me knows that I spend alot of time researching background before I try something. I have heaps of resources and guides as well as novels at my disposal, and I consider myself lucky to have these (the net, while usefull does not have as much information on it that is easily accessable).
Though despite having such works, I have had conflicts with other players because I have interpreted what I have researched as different to them. When I was a newbie and this happened I felt that I was being told how to roleplay my charecter. As a newbie this made me want to leave straight away. When I created Stayne, I did as much research as I could, but I was still completely unprepared for the ruthlessness of the faith and all it entails.
I cannot begin to imagine how poor my RP would be, or how disheartened I would get if I was given spells that I thought may be out of place, but assuming that those here with experience would know better than I, so it must be alright!

I think sometimes its easy to forget how hard it is to be a newbie.
Just another perspective
S

[Rhelian]

Part of being a newbie is learning though. Through other mebers of your faith, your god, or even ooc info through other gods, you find out what is and isn't good, and learn from it, and probably RP learning it. Not all priests have to be all-knowing wise ancient priests from day one - they could be priests in training

[Cherishinar]

As a player of more than one priest and non-priests of quite a few different faiths I have never had a character who was 'taught' tenents and dogma before they were given a quest to join the faith. And yes it is up to the player in some respects to research the faith they wish to join. But that is OOC knowledge not always IC knowledge in regards to the background for the character in question.

I have tried in the past to roleplay a character who did not know alot about a faith and wanted to learn about the faith. They were given a few minutes of time and then given a faith quest. I would like to see more young characters who are not ICly all-knowing about a faith seek out and learn a faith in depth and perhaps discover that the faith is not suitable to the characters ideals beliefs and then go on and seek out another faith to learn about and eventually through roleplay they discover their path.

Faith should be serious and needs to be taught to those seeking to follow a faith. It should not be assumed that the player knows what is right and wrong for the faith in question. Existing priests especially should take time and make themselves available to possible recruits for their faith and ROLEPLAY the teaching the tenents and dogma of their god. If the recruit does not want to take the time to learn ICly about the faith even though the player OOCly already knows then they should not be given a faith quest.

[Tychina]

Not sure if I should be responding on here, as it isn't exactly a new, or even recent post, but I AM glad to find this and read it. Before I went inactive, I had this very problem. I knew nothing about FR, had never heard of it, let alone any of the gods. The first time I realised I was maybe in over my head, was when my newbie character went looking for a job. The person she inquired to, asked if she followed a faith. She did not, not knowing anything about them. When she asked about the gods, the person switched to occ and replied to read the help files on deities. He was very nice, and very helpfull, out of character. he was nice and helpfull IC as well, but the information I wanted IC, everyone was telling me to find OCC. My other character had a little bit better luck, in that she ran into a guy who was more then willing to talk to her as long as she liked, in character, and answer all her questions. She STILL feels a bit clueless, even after all he did for her. it is a lot to digest.

I think sometimes, maybe we do not ask the right questions IC'ly, to get the information we seek. And maybe sometimes those we ask, do not really know how to impart the information IC. To that regard, I really like the learning from quests idea, I don't know a lot about this word I have chosen to play in, but I have "finally" gotton my hands on some of the books and as I read and learn, I will try to think of anything that might could help.

I do have a question though. These quests, being in a faiths temple, will they be to teach just those trying to follow that faith? Or will it be set up so anyone, from any faith, can learn from them, there by learning and expanding their knowledge beyond their own little corner of the world?

[Kirkus]

The problem I see with asking questions about the gods in character is that this is knowledge that every person in the realms would have been taught about this from birth. But I do feel that those with the knowledge should be willing to share it. Sometimes it might not be really IC for certain characters to do that, but they should think of a way to get new people to the realms in contact with those who feel more comfortable relaying that information. I will also suggest buying a book, Faiths and Pantheons. It is a Forgotten Realms Campaign accessory that has tons of info about more gods than you can imagine.