More evil/bestial races in Waterdeep...

[Tandria]

In address to Tandria's post, im a bit confused as to why one element would be favored over the other. I would think it would be either all or none as I dont see any specific evil or goodness to fire, earth, water, and air.

Sorry about that. Re-reading my post, I notice I wasn't very clear.

What I meant was the fact that while all genasi aren't looked upon with a high level of trust, air and earth genasi have similarities to humans that make them harder to distinguish as a separate race, whereas water and fire genasi (especially fire genasi) are remarkably different in appearance to humans. At first glance, a fire genasi would be considered more strange in appearance than an earth genasi. I didn't mean to mislead with my post. Sorry again .

[Isolrem]

So long as their presence is not illegal, reactions would largely depend on your reactions.
In real life, what would you do if you see an elf (we won't go to the extremity of genasi or tiefling because we don't expect our world to be magical)

Most people would probably feign ignorance and "politely" observe from afar. Children would wonder. The odd police might question. Nerdy scientists would gather.

[Gwain]

I think someone told me the best reasoning for not seeing a tiefling in Waterdeep was that Waterdeep is not only populated by pc's but has a whole slew of npc's that will react with hostility at the sight of a personifacation of a demonprince walking into their inn to stay the night.
Other places, like Westgate are use to strange creatures and would be a bit more tolerant. Waterdeep, though one of the largest cities in the world is more favourable towards humanity which is why for the most part the store owners and innkeepers are humans.
Silverymoon on the otherhand boast a large halfelven community. The first time I traveled there on a character I was able to note the racial diversity as opposed to Waterdeep. I'm not saying that evils and chaotics should take up residence in Silverymoon, I'm only usign it as an example of diversity.

The thing is that, demonic presences have no place in the open in Waterdeep unless they wish to be lynched and thrown out. If you feel repressed then why go where the worst repression is? Why let your schemings be foiled? Meet your naysayers outside the gates and beat them at their own game. Waterdeep is a city, a prominant one yes, but there are other places to go and others to rp with. And far more creative ways to inflitrate the City of Splendors. It is a characteristic of good rp to overcome something icly the way a character ought to. And not simply ignore the rule for an easier ooc path. Relying on pc's to allow you and ignoring the general npc mindset. You need to take the time and consider how a character will work, and not treat it like the average human/elf etc. Take a look at the whole picture and see what will work and what will not.

[Bugoron]

I am sure a halfdrow could survive within waterdeep but not walk so openly in the square. Just not totally sure...as stated above A halfdrow could probably flourish in the crime scene of waterdeep within a thieves guild but out during the day in the open probably wear heavy cloak and hoods to hide her features...

In theory, this would work. Heck, in theory, any *evil* race that looks remotely humanoid could walk about easily so long as they were covered and no distinct features gave away their true origins. Just keep the hood up, the head down, and the mouth shut, so to speak.

But there's one problem with this theory. We're not playing tabletop. In tabletop, you would have a DM tell you that there is a cloaked and hooded figure, and that they look humanoid, thus they don't appear too out-of-place. What is the FK supplement? "A blah blah Tiefling/Half-Drow/HalfOrc is standing here."

No, I don't think it balances out either.

The problem that arises is (and I'll grant, I'm just as guilty of it as others) the fact that, sometimes, some players will see the race after the adjectives and react upon it. The person could be covered from head to toe, nothing uncovered, but because someone saw "Half-Drow", they cry it out to the heavens, for all to hear. This causes a second problem. What would have been a well-planned RP for a race not normally able to move around in a city such as Waterdeep has been ruined. Instead of getting in, getting what they need, and leaving without a problem, they have SOMEHOW been discovered, and have to RP not only how they've been found out, but what other characters' reactions will be toward them, which, in most cases, will not be a good one, if logical responses rule the day, so to speak.

It is unfortunate that this is how it is, as all it takes is an extra second to *look* at the character and notice whether or not you could actually see something that would distinguish their true race, "They look like a so-and-so" is not a proper response, in most cases, if you can't actually see what they look like in the first place. Obviously, if a half-drow is running around, ebon skin bared on arms, legs, etc. for all to see, then this does not apply.

Anyway, the main point is, yes, under ideal RP circumstances, a race like a half-drow COULD walk around in a city where they technically should have problems, but, considering the reactions of others, you may be just as safe trying to find an alternate solution to getting what you need.

[Kregor]

Ya know come to think of it...I have read about some drow infiltrating waterdeep...some in an inn albeit they wore cloaks and hoods to hide there faces but the fact is they where there. .... And drizzt walked openly with alot of hostility he is well known and slowly becoming accepted because of his deeds.

This is true in the novels, but since the FK Drow are securely locked up in the Underdark short of IMM intervention, and there is already a strict no-Drizzt-like chars clause in FK's policy, house rules trump canon sources.

A halfdrow could probably flourish in the crime scene of waterdeep within a thieves guild but out during the day in the open probably wear heavy cloak and hoods to hide her features...

Of course, one of the skills that is available to the thief is disguise, and wizards of some schools can get invis and polymorph. There are IC ways to infiltrate places once you have the skills built up on your char. RP established in other areas could also afford you means into places like Waterdeep (not what you know, but who you know). One of the points of requiring kismet and not allowing some races to hometown in Waterdeep is to hopefully get players for these races who are experienced and resourceful that don't have to rely on Waterdeep for their early char development and RP.

[Maline]

This is how I see it.

There are two major negatives with playing planers and other exotics. First the level issue and the second how the rest of the realms will react with you. Now I don't know how the first is handled in the game but the second is controlled by all of us and/or a lot a work by people who could be using thier talents by making other great things for us.

I don't see why it is so hard to accept that you can't have everything such as hanging around one city or cities in general. You get bonuses should it not be balanced by accepting that people might look at you wierd, treat you differently, not want to deal with you or even want to kill you?

And all the comments about how one looks, isn't the reason for playing one to have the blue skin, fire hair, stonelike skin, scales all over your body or even wings. If not then why not as someone else said play a human.

I just don't think there needs to be anything else said about this. Did no one see this:

I am hoping that players will think before taking one of their exotic/rare races into a city. I want you to do the research. Talamar spent a couple of weeks making those help files on the races, USE THEM.

I have been discussing some more exotic races with Greg, and if I implement them or bring them before Dalvyn for balancing and coding, depends on how people are roleplaying the ones we have offered so far. If I continue to see a blatant disreguard for the limitations that the roleplay of a race has, then I wont bother with these other races.

I would love to see Wild Elves in the game as well as many other fun and exciting things. Its not a matter of if someone looks almost human or could hide who they are or even sneak into a place, it is a matter of accepting that playing these races have limitations in THIS game, so can we please come to an understanding, follow the guidelines and end this thread.

[Zilvryn]

I saw that, and that was exactly the response I was hoping to elicit by posting this thread.

[Tretch]

I agree with what Maline said completely.

People need to stop creating specific examples to make things possible and stay with a general outlook.

Generally.....keep your exotic self out

IF YOU WANT A HUMAN LIKE PC......PLAY A HUMAN

Jake

[Argentia]

I would just like to reitterate that certain races simply are not accepted in large, generally good-aligned cities LIKE WATERDEEP. It bothers me when people have the mentality that "just because code allows it means I can do it." Many races, such as Tieflings, Orcs, Goblins, Drow, Half-Drow, Hobgoblins, Yuan-Ti, Lizardfolk, ect. would be immediately captured and killed in horrific ways only mob-mentality can accomplish. I'm reminded of the scene in Baldur's Gate II when the drow Viconia is captured and literally burned at the stake because, well, she's a drow. This applies to ALL generally evil-born creatures.

Please use common sense when playing your rare races! Certain races should not be blatantly standing in Market Square. It is one thing if you are hidden, it is a completely different matter if you are blatantly revealed and interacting.

I am not pointing fingers or trying to be a meanie-poo-poo-head. I would just like to see people be more responsible with their rare races. I love the rarer races, and hate to see them abused.

[Balek]

I'm not sure I agree entirely that tieflings should never be in Waterdeep. Certainly the more obvious tieflings, those with horns, goat legs or very strangly colored skin should probably not enter the city, but there are lots of tieflings that have only one or two easily concealed demonic features. Gloves to cover their clawlike fingertips and a splash of perfume to mask the scent of brimstone might be all some tieflings need to blend in with humans.

[Argentia]

One little thing, I could certainly understand being RPed as pretending to be a human. But I've seen in the past, and saw today, a tiefling with one or more of the obvious traits you mentioned. This strikes me as poor disregard of the IC world around them.

[Kregor]

I'm not sure I agree entirely that tieflings should never be in Waterdeep. Certainly the more obvious tieflings, those with horns, goat legs or very strangly colored skin should probably not enter the city, but there are lots of tieflings that have only one or two easily concealed demonic features. Gloves to cover their clawlike fingertips and a splash of perfume to mask the scent of brimstone might be all some tieflings need to blend in with humans.

This same argument was posed earlier in the thread, on the grounds of "What about planars that don't look so much like planars". Realistic ability to coneal aside, the general concensus, and Sharni's word, was "don't matter."

As I take the thread up to now, an FK tiefling/aasimar/genasi/etc. should be assumed to be distinctive in appearance, not subtle, conceive the character accordingly, and assume there is no easy way whtsoever to conceal said features. And assume, for the most part, that you *should* ICly get the same treatment in Waterdeep as the orcs do. Other cities, like the Keep, Westgate, Skullport, etc. where such chars can be generated, are a different story.

I don't know how many times this topic has been hashed and rehashed. And yet there still seems to be some argument for the rights of totally wacky creatures to hang out visibly in a city that is magistered by a Paladin. Either there, or in an Elven forest where there would ICly be dozens of elven archers perched in tree forts.

[Andreas]

I'll point out the announcement on this: http://www.forgottenkingdoms.com/board/ ... php?t=4445

People continue to blatantly disregard this. As Sharni pointed out earlier in the thread, if it continues, there is a chance that exotic races will be removed because people can't be responsible in their roleplay.

And HOW many times have we seen things removed from the game because people abuse the code? If it seems questionable (i.e. tieflings hanging around in Waterdeep's Market Square or orcs tromping around in Ardeep) then it's probably a good idea to NOT do it even though the code let's you.

[Kirkus]

Now I normally agree with a lot of the people in this discussion. But not today. It seems to me that everyone is missing some major points. A character is not a description. It is what you make it. That being said Tiefling don't have to be evil. The don't even have to look evil. The FR campaign setting only goes so far as to call their physical traits minor. Then it even goes on to say that some that descend from things like infernal deities might have a birthmark of the deities symbol.

Here is the point I am trying to make. Birthmarks can be covered(except if its on the face or something) as can most physical traist a tiefling is given. There is no one way to Describe, or play a character. Now I don't think we should allow 5 million Drizztesk Tiefling running arround the realms I don't think we should be limiting their rp.

[Kregor]

Maybe we can keep this from becoming a discussion again, by quoting back Sharni's statement from earler for those who don't scoll back:

For the record, I agree with Talamar's statements.

I am hoping that players will think before taking one of their exotic/rare races into a city. I want you to do the research. Talamar spent a couple of weeks making those help files on the races, USE THEM.

I will not quote Talamar's preceding post, and the others regarding the appearance of FK planars and where they would be welcome, but suffice it to say, Tieflings and other evil born races have no place loitering openly in the Lawful Good cities.

This is not a discussion of how tiefling your tielfing can look in canon Forgotten Realms. Drow can roam the surface in FR as well, but not in FK. Drow, teiflings, and others can be non-evil in FR, but not in FK.

In this game, as in a tabletop game, when house rules conflict with canon, house rules trump. It's Mystra and Tyr's game, ultimately, they get to call it. If the admins want a certain line of RP out of planars, rangers, drow, et al., then we should be willing to play it accordingly, or roll something else.

[Gwain]

Of late there have been a few number of half-drow in Waterdeep, mostly walking through, or using certain areas and dives as hideaways, I will not reveal icly specific examples, but I wonder how suitable Waterdeep is to drow, especially half drow, originally the idea of creating an exotic race was and removing the ability for them to create Waterdeep as a hometown was to limit their time in the city itself. But it appears that some pc's have been close to the Market, pking in the walls (I state heresay) even stalking individuals of other races. In the FR universe there have been examples of drow or half drow being found out in society and being assulted by all manner of citizens simply for being found in a city, or found out. I would like to propose some ideas

1) disable daylight adaption for now and enable a weaker element that strips stamina and constitution when drow and half drow leave shadowed areas in Waterdeep proper, such as main roads. Keep which areas are secret and allow them to find out icly.

2) Confine drow and half drow to a few of the saltier and seedier areas within Waterdeep through use of code, Allow only those that have applied fully and tangibly to enter the city proper through applications@fogottenkingdoms.com based on the rp of the pc in question and past performances in keeping a proper rp for Waterdeep.

3) Program gate guards and officials with the same codign as soldiers in Waterdeep, allowing them to eject drow onsight from the city, keeping out every single one unless they are invisble, have code allow common citizens (who should have no trouble whatsoever with recognising a drow) to edject half drow via alerting guards.

4) Allow the code to not allow any shopkeeper mobs and trainers to train or trade with drow and half-drow to train and trade in Waterdeep. Also limit the sail of drow related items such as Adamantite armours and weapons of drow design

5) Create a process to evaluate drow and half-drow adjectives to make sure that they stay true to the suggested requirements set out in helpfiles, anything different like an human pigmented drow or a very human like halfdrow should be applied for (though this process might already exist and maybe some will apply for the operation before pursuing their rp)

6) Instead of guards throwing drow outside the city, have them jail the individual pc's for a specified time then throw them out of the city afterward. This will show certai npc's that spam entering or abusing code by showing one's self to a guard to get out of the city faster, will only result in jail time.

I've seen half-drow, tieflings, even orcs penetrating Waterdeep, I'm guilty more or less of it with my own exotic characters, but if any of the above suggestions were inacted, I would support them fully as a way of keeping my rp in check and therefore allowing me to take it to a more appropriate place. This might seem harsh to some, but Waterdeep is a single city, you should do your best to limit your time, if you are goign to enter, try to be hidden or invisible, try to stay away from main populous popular locations and try to avoid dealings in public. I can't tell you how to rp, but it does seem strange to see half-drow in sight a few blocks from the market square. It might seem hard or unfair, but sometimes restrictions lead to better rp, even if it is difficult.
Bear in mind this is my own take on recent events and results, everything here is merely suggested ideas and my thoughts on the matter, if this angers anyone or if you believe it singles out certain individuals, please be aware that it is not my intention to do so, I am only suggesting ideas and observations. I accept full responsibility for my words and actions.

[Zilvryn]

I agree entirely on the points you've brought up Gwain..

I'll post something more detailed later, and some suggestions of my own, but it's 8am and i've been playing FK all night, so i'm uber-tired and my bed is calling me..

In closing, yes, I agree.

E

[Duranamir]

Speaking as a player who has had several run ins with master Gwain and the watch i in fact generally support the direction of the last post. I however have some issues with the individual ideas.

1) Daylight adaptation should work the same all over the world. In fact Waterdeep probably has more shadowy places than most towns and citys.

2) Broadly a good idea though the code to do this would be feindishly complicated. I would hope that in general half Drow would restrict themselves to the seedier areas already as part of the RP. If they have earnd the right to be treated better then this should be RP'd too. And at present no full blood Drow can reach the surface without IMM approval and intervention.

3) I actually support this though it might be nice if all the guards did not detect invisible Maybe the wizard guards should but not the standard ones. There are already ways to avoid the gates if you want.

4) Trading i think is pherhaps possible as how closely does a shopkeeper look at the person buying something ? But i do agree that training should be more restricted as it requires a longer interaction between trainer and trainee. And as far as Drow crafted items the only ones i am aware of on the surface are obtained from Mobs and have nothing to do with Drow or half Drow players especailly.

5) I am really not sure about this as evaluating other players adjectives and descriptions other than at character genneration seems a procees fraught with difficultys. Also skin colour and general looks could vary hugely and that is presuming only standard genetics let alone magic !.

6) I have no real problem with this as being caught should be a problem and some jail time would be a suitable punishment. I have had some quite fun RP's after being caught in the city by Gwain and others.

I like to think that in general i personally have tried to restrict my entrys to Waterdeep and have handled being caught IC responsibly. And as Gwain suggests dont go and hang out in the Square it only annoys the natives !!.

One addtional point if and when full blooded Drow ever reach the surface they have NO reason or excuse for being caught in Waterdeep and i would support the strongest penaltys if one was caught in the city.

Duranamir

[Caelnai]

Isn't this currently being ICly handled (discussion phase) by the Lawmakers? Not sure we need to endrun that process via the code, or do I misunderstand?

[Alaudrien]

Hmm I agree with both Gwain and Duranamir except I think it would be better taken through the officials npc and pc alike. Some rp's have the halfdrow or other exotic races sneaking into waterdeep. That or when they want to get to undermount they have to go through waterdeep to reach it. As well as when you leave skullport via the boat it takes you and plops you in the docks of waterdeep. I tell you that scared the crap out of me the first time it happened. I think the idea of dealing with the seedier parts of town is good but not stripping daylight adaptation it wouldn't make much sense to me. Also Waterdeep in itself is a den of merchants, thieves, and even dark and underlying forces that move in. Like if you have ever read the city of wanders. A high priest of the beast gods ..the amalgamation moved in and brought mongrel men. Who where made from monster and animal parts. The high priest wasn't even officially there he was hiding and digging his own tunnels under the deep. He himself had a beholders eye and a snake and other things growing from him. The dark presence in the deep would be icly there. That is what makes the intrigue of waterdeep very good. although I would rather hang out in Luskan ..maybe someday! I digress and shall end this post here thank ye^^