Following and Avoidance Quitting (with some points on Invis)

[Hviti]

I got into a situation where one of my characters wanted to follow another character out of WD to conduct some RP that guards -might- not like. My character was flying and invis, so I headed into the same room as the other character and followed him.

This brings me to my first question. What exactly is entailed in 'follow'?...obviously speed (and I've noticed that speed sneak, now being the fastest and most likely to lose ppl on a 'normal' speed such as walk, is by far the most popular), but do factors such as fly/invis enable one to tail another? How about thief skills?

So the other character feels my presence by the air shifting (but that's a whole other can of worms), says he has to go, walks east, and quits, effectively ending any chance I would have had to RP later outside of guard infested territory.

That brings me to my second question. Is quit legal in such a situation? The character did add an OOC bye to me, which IMO was meant to indicate that he was not quitting because he had to but to avoid confrontation.

This isn't a big deal, but I'd like to confront the issue and get an imm ruling on it if possible before a more important situation comes up where such problems may emerge.

So...in summary, I would like to, if possible, hear imm rulings on situations with invis*, follow, and quit, as these seem that they may cause problems in the future with PK situations.

I'm not sure if I should mention names or not, as I've heard different opinions on that, so I'm leaving them out.

* (perhaps invis should be its own topic, since rangers in forests and ppl in general seem to get +20s on 'someone flies in from the ___' checks, but that's, as refered to previously, a can of stinkin' worms)

[Bugoron]

With the policy FK has set down for PKill situations, players should be given the option to back out of a PK if they wish (so long as it is within reason). By within reason, I mean that, supposing your PC is trapped in a room with an enemy PC, with no chance of escape besides fighting their way out, then yes, you should probably come to an agreement on a PK and play it through, but this is an extreme case. If you were to confront someone outside the city, they should be given the chance to make it known that they do not wish to participate in a full-blown PKill. Simply saying OOCly that you 'have to leave', however, and quitting, is not the best way to handle this. In this case, simply talk it through OOCly and come to an agreement on whether or not a PK is mutually permissable, and, if so, how far the RP is allowed to go (In relation to killmode, taking of an item, etc.) This way, since both players have come to a mutual agreement, their can be no ill feelings on either party's behalf.

This is just how I see it, and I realise that, ICly, sometimes things seem to be aligned perfectly for a PK. I *personally* think that, in such an event, so long as there is *NO* OOC malice in the act, that swinging once (with killmode spar, for example), to start a PK situation, isn't a horrible thing. However, there still needs to be some OOC agreement on things like killmode and other such options. I don't mind admitting that I'm not big on PK, but if it happens, and makes for good RP, I'm willing to consider it, but that's just me

[Telk]

If in fact the person did quit solely to avoid a PK situation I think that it's extremely poor form. But you also have to be careful on jumping to conclusions, maybe the person did have to go IRL and unfortunately had to leave the RP.

I think that a PC should be allowed to back out of a PK situation if he/she really feels uncomfortable in one, or like Bugoron said, decide on a killmode and RP from there. RP is RP after all and it is just a game, while it may mean more to some of us than others, just have fun doing it, backing out of RP using entirely OOC means you are anti-rp or merely don't like the RP coming at you. If you dig yourself into a hole you're going to have to dig yourself out, IC actions = IC consequences.

As for trailing while invis I don't entirely understand your question.

[Exer]

If the person is quitting to avoind the RP then I agree, it is in bad form.

As the the invis. I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong. That a char that is flying should no be able to be tracked with the tracking still. Which in all honesty, makes plenty of sense.

[Ellian]

Here are some Pkill rules that may apply to the sorts of situations described here:

If X is obviously outmatched and knows that Y's intent is to start a Pkill roleplay, can X flee (run, teleport, recall, etc.) immediately when Y enters the room?
* Yes using skills available to you is allowed. Like fleeing etc. However, quitting the game to avoid someone is not acceptable. Instantly fleeing or using teleport spells without any form of roleplay before hand is considered poor gamesmanship.

Can Pkills be avoided by PC's who don't want to participate?
* Generally speaking, MOST situations will allow the non-aggressive player to find an IC way out of the fight.
* In an ideal pkill situation, an opponent must be given a chance to escape the option of combat.
* If a PC roleplays him/herself into a corner by taunting, bullying, etc. that PC may not be afforded the opportunity to avoid the consequences.
* Remember that FK attracts new players and wants to keep them. Providing no chance for escape can sometimes hinder this process.
* Usually the "no chance to avoid" comes with long standing animosity and roleplay.

What are some appropriate ways for a PC to remove him/herself from a pkill situation?
* Travel spells, a mad dash into the oleander bushes for you small folk, etc. ALL must be accompanied by smotes and roleplay.
* It is not acceptable to leave as soon as someone enters the room (recall, teleport, run away, etc.) as that is purposely avoiding roleplay.

People that feel 'uncomfortable' in pkill situations need to understand the rules protecting them and the options available to them. Pkills on this mud should not be something to fear and avoid at all possible costs, they are just a different kind of roleplay - as potentially fun or not fun as sitting in market square. There are so many safeguards in place to make sure that all parties involved in a pkill have as much fun as possible, but it's important that before you start throwing insults or religious rhetoric or the pointy end of your weapon of choice that you know what exactly those safeguards are and how to use them.

Lastly, always remember:

* Your actions should not always make the other CHARACTERS have fun (otherwise, this might be quite boring), but you should make sure that your actions give other PLAYERS challenges and make them have fun.

If you're not having fun in a roleplay because the roleplay is poor or because you feel the rules outlined in the pkill faq are not being followed, address that issue promptly before the pkill progresses further. But if you're not having fun because things aren't going your character's way, remember this is a multiplayer game and if you always win, then eventually it won't be fun for the person that always loses. We all should be open to winning sometimes and losing sometimes, as both can be fun if the roleplay involved is good.


Jayson

[Kregor]

If you're not having fun in a roleplay because the roleplay is poor or because you feel the rules outlined in the pkill faq are not being followed, address that issue promptly before the pkill progresses further. But if you're not having fun because things aren't going your character's way, remember this is a multiplayer game and if you always win, then eventually it won't be fun for the person that always loses. We all should be open to winning sometimes and losing sometimes, as both can be fun if the roleplay involved is good.

This digresses the topic, but.... As I see it, the only way to really avoid an email going to complaints on either party's part in a PK situation is a beforehand declaration before things start to fly, unless you keep your killmode on stun by default from the start. As far as "fun", RP-style combat goes, killmode spar or nofight (for nonlethal or lethal, respectively) are the most conducive to fun RP, allowing for smotes and quips between blows. Fun to watch, fun to be in, and also allow for more IC action.

Losing is one thing, dying is another. Dying is very seldom fun. Losing experience and/or levels is seldom fun. Being willing to lose graciously is one thing, feeling hunted by another player who you know sorely outmatches you and will always win in a straight Pkill fight is also another. And insults, religious rhetoric, etc, are not an automatic justification for typing "murder" in an RP mud, as I see it. There are many other ways, RP-wise, to engage in confrontation than typing "murder", any of them more conducive to RP than beating or casting on each other until one, two, five characters are dead.

[Lathlain]

Personally, and I don't mean to take sides in the matter, using the follow command to stalk a player character is poor form in itself. If you're going to follow a player character, you would do well to really attempt to follow him. Give him a chance to shake you, and look down alleys to see if you can spot him etc.
This is probably just a personal gripe and not applicable to the situation though.

[Exer]

This thread seems to be getting side-tracked, but I felt like I needed to elaborate on one point

And insults, religious rhetoric, etc, are not an automatic justification for typing "murder" in an RP mud, as I see it.

In an RP mud, you are still responsible for your actions. Insulting an other character, whether more powerful or not will probably result in a response. The response depends on the alignment of that char, I'm not implying that a PK should follow, but you should not assume that you are safe. Judge your target before starting to let the insults fly

You bump into a 7-foot cop, you insult him, the worst that can happen is getting a free ride to jail. You bump into a 7-foot mobster, you insult him, the worst that can happen is a free ride to the bottom of the lake with cement shoes.

Think of the possible consequences before you act.

[Kregor]

You bump into a 7-foot cop, you insult him, the worst that can happen is getting a free ride to jail. You bump into a 7-foot mobster, you insult him, the worst that can happen is a free ride to the bottom of the lake with cement shoes.

And said mobster ultimately finds himself in the electric chair for his crimes, much like a player who pkills on FK with a shallow excuse or motivation could find himself or herself helled.

Granted, there is as much responsibility on the part of the person being attacked to make sure they don't push the envelope as well. Baiting another player to Pkill, is just as bad as the PKiller bullying other chars.

What I find often (emphasize often, sadly not always) sets FK apart from the plethora of pkill MUDs is those who are here to RP, not PK. The conflict arises when those who want to PK, force their preference upon those who would rather RP. The point of my post, is that there are far more creative ways, and more RP conducive ways of resolving conflict than PKill, even if you are said "7 foot mobster." This may, or may not, end in typing "murder X," If you play it right. When it all comes down, winning a PKill ultimately proves nothing, except who has leveled up the best.

[Balek]

This is a roleplay mud, but the game we play is an inherently violent one. Levels are for people who pkill, items are for people who pkill, and skills are for people who pkill. If this were an entirely roleplay world, we would be playing in a MOO or something similar. To assume that insulting a hulking orc in the middle of the wilderness is going to result in anything other than a swift beating is naive. To then punish the player of the orc for killing despite having justification is detrimental to the game. Make no mistake, helling a character is not In Character punishment. When someone is helled, they cannot play their character, often for an extended period of time. Helling is used to keep problem players from destroying the good time everyone else is having. If you want an IC punishment for a murder, look no further than banishments, jail, torture or a public execution. These are all in character punishments which all help to promote additional quality roleplay. Helling an evil character because they've killed someone they've been insulted by ends up harming the game more than it hurts it. Since I started playing here, I have been told repeatedly, "IC actions, IC consequences." This ideal holds true for players of good characters as well as players of evil ones. If an evil character wants to kill someone who insulted him, then he must accept that he might be banished, jailed, or worse. By the same token, a good character who wants to run around insulting orcs in person had better know that he's probably going to end up rotting at the bottom of a ditch somewhere.

The majority of players I know who have evil characters are great people. I have roleplayed with and against them numerous times in the past and I will continue to do so because in my opinion, the our good and evil characters is the best part about the experience on this game. The majority of these players will not even kill you if you get in a pkill situation. That's not to say they're going to let you off easy. If they don't kill you, they're going to expect something from you. If you're on the ground bleeding and they're standing over you, they're going to make you lick their boots if you don't want to die. If your character is a principled person like a paladin, you'll likely refuse and you'll take your honorable death and you'll enjoy the experience. If you've got a little less backbone you'll lick the boots and slink back to Waterdeep and hope no one ever finds out you licked an orc's boots. Why is this good roleplay? Because everything is playing out like it could in a real, actual situation. You insulted someone bigger than you, you got beat, accept the consequences. Why was the orc justified in fighting you? Because you probably shouldn't insult someone who has a human skull stuck to the top of his helmet.

In character actions, in character consequences. The street goes both ways. If we start helling and banning every player of every evil character who gets in a fight when they've been goaded into it, we're going to have a mud full of antagonistic, holier-than-thou Helmites and evil characters who never want to get their hands dirty because they're going to get helled if they actually act like evil people do now and then. Maybe there ARE more creative ways to roleplay than killing the other guy, but who ever said orcs were clever?

[Andreas]

FIRST let's get this thread back on topic. This is NOT a discussion about PKilling or OOC punishments meted out on players. Nor is this a place to flame other players, however "inadvertantly" such might be worded.

I suggested to Hviti's player that he post a question here about quitting to avoid being followed. He asked in the game, but there didn't appear to be any Imms available for an official ruling. I felt the discussion board was the best place for his question.

Personally, I understand that people quit for a variety of reasons. I've had to quit unexpectedly at times (i.e. cat bleeding... kitchen flooding... neighbor at the door needing help...). Other times I've been upset, angry or just not feeling well and decided it would be better for me to log off rather than try to play when I'm not in a good mood for playing. Things happen and real life takes precedence over any game. And if I have to log out suddenly, I usually leave with a polite "Bye" or "Take care!" before I go.

However, if there is definitive PROOF that someone is quitting the game in the manner Hviti's player described for the sole purpose of avoiding RP, then I would consider that to be very poor form. What do I mean by "definitive PROOF" in this instance? I mean someone quits then immediately logs on an alt. To me that seems pretty definitive that they only quit playing one character in order to avoid the RP situation.

Without knowing a player's exact situation, I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt that they had a real reason to suddenly quit. If I suspected otherwise, I'd log the incident and submit it to complaints. Player logins are recorded in the game logs, so the complaints team would be able to research matters and find out if the player was logging off one alt then logging another right away.

Flying and invisibility doesn't necessarily mean that a PC is entirely undetectable. There are some skills and spells that will allow other PCs to detect flying/invisible PCs. And you can't forget Imms who might take a part in RP by alerting PCs to the presence of flying/invisible characters.

[Lathander]

I am one of those who hells players. I don't know where the notion of helling a player for IC things as alleged above comes from. We don't do that. We DO at times find an IC reason to explain why a player has been helled OOC. Sometimes we just haul off and take them to the abyss without making an IC explanation and other times, especially if there are a lot of players around, we may make an IC justification for an OOC discussion about to take place in the abyss. That way, rp can continue on the surface while the imm is dealing with an issue in the Abyss.

Now, there HAVE been specific rps where PCs have been thrown into "hell" or the "abyss" for an IC rp. I can recall several where that has happened. If anyone is going to allege that a PC has been IC helled for pkilling in the wilderness after being provoked, I ask that you send very specific proof to the complaints address so it can be reviewed. I have not seen it happen.

I am going to close this thread because I think the tone it is taking on both sides is detrimental. The original question posed is a good one. The responses started out well but it has taken a turn in the latter posts. There are several specific issues that players are alluding to in these posts that are under imm discussion and no one has ALL of the facts.