Who list - suggestion

[Exer]

I have a suggestion to make.

I think it might be more IC to have the who list only show the players that have greeted you. It would still show the total that are playing on the mud.

This is to stop players from assuming who you might be by just looking at the who list. Or using the who list to avoid areas where they might encounter a PC. etc...... the list goes on

thoughts?

[Wenin]

The who list itself is OOC, even with players you know being listed upon it.

There is really very little if anything about the who list that is "really" IC. Its used to show others who is online.


If you want to go as far as limiting it to a list of greeted people than:

Remove titles - Often when I meet someone they frequently don't provide as much information as is presented in the Title section... nor do they continually update everyone they know whenever their Title is updated.

Shutdown the Finger command altogether.



I feel everyone should be playing as if everyone else is logged on, since characters can't log off in their realm... they just get out of touch... must be adventuring... running errands... etc. That's why you can't go messing around in Ardeep, since there happens to not be any rangers logged in.

[Timaeus]

Code: Select all

Syntax:  who 
         who [character] 
          
WHO shows the characters currently in the game.  The command shows all who 
are in the game, including dead players, those invisable by magic.  You will 
still see the who list while blinded.  Immortals who are wizinvis will not appear. 

Please note the information in your title is considered IC information through 
heresay. It does not mean the very first time your character meets someone and 
are not greeted by them that your character will know all the rumors about an 
unknown character by the who list information. It is expected that the who list 
information be considered a rumour after a few roleplayed encounters with a 
particular character whether greeted or not. 

And the problem that Exer is alluding to is that players often do not play as if the who list was just ooc and that players avoid certain areas and do or do not do certain things because of information on the who list. Just because players are supposed to ignore it and should ignore the who list the reality is that they do not.

[Gregal]

Personally I agree, this allows for RP of lying and decieving, I believe that is a pure necessity of a evil character, Many characters like to play any info OOC or not to the benefit of their character. And I believe if we limit the who list to only those who are greeted, Would help greatly. Personally its hard to follow a Diety Cyric or any other of evil orgin when as soon as you meet someone they are like "EVIL!" and you can't even lie or RP it out. So I think that it would be a great idea to do something about the Who list.

[Estrild]

I would agree with removing the titles, but I also find that they are exceptionally necessary for my poor memory, to sort of remind me of who I am talking to.

The WHO list is not used in an IC manner, no matter how much the game says it ought to be. People tend to use titles to make things easier for the deities, for example. Hopefuls will mention so in their title, so that when the deity logs on s/he is reminded to examine the player's RP. I personally am highly discouraged from playing an evil by this, because it seems like it is necessary to post this information up, but then suddenly it is considered hearsay - and quite frankly, if I was a hopeful of Mask, I certainly wouldn't go about blathering on about how that's who I followed.

That being said, I think it would be interesting if people we able to customize what information they see about others. To a deity, the WHO list would appear as normal, with each player's chosen title appearing. You would "title self Whatever I Am" as normal, and deities would see all that. To a newb, the WHO list might appear something to the extent of

< High Knight > Andreas
< UNKNOWN > Arlen
< Truescar > Daunyelle
< UNKNOWN > Serte
< Goddess > Sune, Lady of Beauty

Then, assuming you met Andreas, who promptly told you who he was, you would "title Andreas, High Knight of Helm" or possibly "title Andreas - Knight of the Vigilant Eyes" and he would thus appear

< High Knight > Andreas - Knight of the Vigilant Eyes

Serte, meanwhile, being the liar that he is, might greet you as being a merchant, and you would then note "title Serte the Merchant."

I am uncertain of exactly how plausable that idea as a whole is, but I know I think constantly that I wish I could title people myself, so that I would remember to RP out whatever they told me correctly, rather than whatever it actually says. I realize that some people employ the handy use of Notepad to keep these notes, but that program helps very little for those of us who travel around a lot.

[Exer]

To elaborate on my original suggestion, imms and any heroes would have access to the whole list to spot such things as hopefuls.

Though I like your idea Estrild, I think it will be a bit of a nightmare to code. As well, if memory serves correctly, my understanding is that it's not a direction that is favored by the admin staff.

[Ellian]

Though I like your idea Estrild, I think it will be a bit of a nightmare to code. As well, if memory serves correctly, my understanding is that it's not a direction that is favored by the admin staff.

You might be thinking of this discussion:

http://www.forgottenkingdoms.com/board/ ... php?t=3428


Jayson

[Tretch]

I agree with Exer.

There has been many cases that I have seen and run into where the who list has way too much of an affect.

However, I do not think the who list should only show those you have greeted for the many reason of keeping a large amount of players online.

Example... if you log on and saw only one other char on... you would be less inclined to stay IMO. However, if there were 30 players on, even if you didnt know many of them... you would be more inclined to stay as there is more RP chances.

SO, I think that titles should be REMOVED. However, I think that you should still be able to set your title, etc, and chars should STILL make use of them. Although, only NC members, Heroes, and Deities should be able to see them. That way, hopefuls can be spotted, etc. This makes the OOC who list more of an asset as it can help imms organize things and will serve that purpose alone.

Often, there are problems with horribly unIC titles anyways that really don't need to be there. I have seen a title that said, "Happy and Sitting"

Um... what?

I also hate how the who list can automatically point people to your name instantly. If there is just a list of names... its harder to tell, but the titles usually give away who it is.

I have seen many RPs where in the situation the name was never presented (obviously, if you are dealing with an enemy), and then the next day... the enemy is using the exact name to identify the person. This stuff happens, and needs to be avioded.

Thinking about this idea more... I am trying to weigh a couple of ideas. People use the titles, but the names are used a lot ICLY as well... hmm

Jake

[Glim]

Hmm...

Both sides on this one.

To be against, I can see the who list as being a good RP tool. Being allowed to see who is on and knowing there are people on you can RP with. I dont think titles need to be removed, so if you dont want people to use the who list to find out who you are, just dont tell them your name.

As for agreeing, I dont really have to state what everyone else has already said.

Will post a better response when its not New Year's Eve and I havent been drinking a bit and very tired,

[Ellian]

Example... if you log on and saw only one other char on... you would be less inclined to stay IMO. However, if there were 30 players on, even if you didnt know many of them... you would be more inclined to stay as there is more RP chances.

What if it looked like this:

Code: Select all

<human>     Adam, Waukeenar Merchant of Waterdeep
<hfelf>     Tiffany, Bard of Milil, owes me money
<dwarf>     Uldon, Miner and Smithy
<human>     Josh, Apprentice to Gary
< orc >     Grood, Witch Doctor
<High Mage> Gary, Mage of Mystra
< God >     Lathander the Morninglord
*You know 7 out of 34 players currently logged on.

You'd know that there were a good twenty-something people out there to find and meet, so it wouldn't be discouraging to just see the handful you've met.

Jayson

[Exer]

Thanks Ellian, this is exactly what I suggested in my original post, you just made it that much simpler to understand

The Who list shows all you have already greeted, but still tell you how many players are on. I find this to be much more IC and this will avoid all the OCC guessing that happens. Removing the titles does not address the root of the problem,which is having ppl using the who list to for IC reasons.

Take for example wanting to find Sir Andreas. Instead of just popping up the who list, you know have to ask around and see if anyone knows him. And from there, arrange for a meeting to get a proper greeting. If anything this will enhance RP and make it more realistic.

[Tretch]

yah, I agree.... Thats about what I think should be implemented.

As I thought on it more... I was realizing that I have had many RPs avoided and ruined because people knew I was online... So thats what I was trying to avoid.

This happens with both evils and good alike, but is something to be avoided.

The changing of the who list to reflect the titles of people you have been greeted by, but still tell you the total number would be perfect.

Then, if you are an evil HP or something... make sure you are not greeting the goods

Jake

[Lerytha]

I do see the advantages to removing the opportunity to avoid RP through use of OOC knowledge. However, it removes the opportunity to enable RP through use of the who list.

Take this example. If I log on, and I type who, I receive:

<unknown> Billy, Cleric of Cyric
<unknown> Elrond, Druid of Chauntea
<human> Timothy, Ranger of Mielikki (me, for example's sake)

Now, I know that a druid of Chauntea will probably be around certain areas in game which seem to collect "nature-based" RPers. So, I as Timothy, move IC to that area, and hey-presto, there is some good RP.

If we had anything else, I would just see that there are 3 people online, of which I know 0. Now those 3 could be ANYWHERE, in the Underdark, in the Keep, anywhere. Is it so wrong to use the who list to enable RP like that? Yes, some might say that it makes the MUD more realistic, but there comes a point when we have to realise that something can be realistic, but bad for what is essentially a game designed to RP with. Anything that makes it harder to find people with which to RP is bad, imho.

Also, one further point. If lots of people see: "There are 32 people online. You know 4" where do you think they will gather to find RP? The Market Square of Waterdeep. Recently, RP has been less fixed around that point. A move to where we cannot "guess" where RP is taking place, would undo all that work.

I hope that is something that can be considered in the discussion. And maybe I'm not meant to be using the who list like I should be, but I will say that I do use the who list to instigate RP with people other than "goods", for example, placing myself ICly closer to Zhentil Keep, so that the person "Hannibal, the Cyricist Killer" might stumble across me as he walks along the road.

Thanks for listening/reading.

[Wenin]

I agree completely with Lerytha, I'm glad someone was able to put my concerns in a nice format.


As a new player, I find the locking down of information to be difficult to overcome. If you are really wanting to attract new players, it will help to be more open with the information.

I would be for the removal of Titles as being tagged IC information. I rather like the idea of people setting what they see for other people's title.

<human> Adam, Waukeenar Merchant of Waterdeep, sells armor
<Unknown> Bippie
<Unknown> Boris
<Unknown> John
<High Mage> Gary, Mage of Mystra
< orc > Grood, Witch Doctor
<human> Josh, Apprentice to Gary
< God > Lathander the Morninglord
<hfelf> Tiffany, Bard of Milil, owes me 25gp
<dwarf> Uldon, Miner and Smithy
<Unknown> Uma

FYI: The biggest problem is the FINGER command. Try doing a Finger <Lanky or slender or tall or ugly... etc> It isn't the WHO list that is giving out people's names, it is the FINGER command.

I'd rather see the Finger command locked to only those that you known, and have it display their Adjective.... disabling the Privacy ability to block the feature.

[Tretch]

Lerytha is highlighting the exact problem that Exer is trying to correct.

Yes, but seeing there is a druid online you have a good idea of where they may be... but not having that person show up is not a large problem to overcome

90% of the online players will be in WD or surrounding areas. The chances of you running into them are not that slim. If you are a ranger type or a druid..... your RP heavy areas are within 2 mins real time to check up on so that is not a problem.

The problem Exer is highlighting is a terrible one. People are getting the names from the who list. It is very, very easy to do so. Usually, there is something about their deity in the title, or the fact that they are evil... a ranger... druid... etc

It is VERY easy to spot who it has to be, especially now as the player base is hitting a lull. Sure, if there are 40 players on... it harder to spot, but it at least gives you a good idea of what you are dealing with.

The reason I am all for this idea is for many exact situations I have run into with Tretch that are obviously OOC issues. RPs can change drastically because of blatant use of the who list.

Examples that I have seen and been told of:

1.) Soloing type chars who can be caught 90% of their time training alone, magically decide they need to run back to WD, form a group and THEN continue their previous tasks. This does not imply everyone, so don't use it as such.

2.) My personal fav... One or two good PC confronting another PC(s), probably evil, with an obvious fight type RP about to commence. The usual tells cross the realms for backup, however they are incredibly OOC in nature. Many blatantly stating to make sure certain powerful characters are not nearby so they can succesfully gain up and win. This is a blatant use of the who list to determine the RP. These tells DO NOT occur when the powerful chars are offline, so it is not really IC to do so.

Obviously... if it was something like.... you are near ZK for the fight and need to avoid minions of Fzoul, etc... its understandable. However, plucking the ONE evil on the who list to talk about through tells before you go join the RP is ridiculous.

3) People leveling/training/adventuring in certain areas based off of who is on the who list. This happens ALL THE TIME. I see this all the time. People leaving areas, or going to areas based on who is online. Its almost avoiding RP, and in general, is pretty ridculous as well.

Jake

[Tretch]

As for people gathering in WD MS.... that will ALWAYS happen. There is no way to avoid it, and there is nothing necessarily wrong with it. It has been like that since the beginning. Of course when a large majority of characters are created there... people will run into each other there most. The player base is not large enough to really generate a lot of RP outside of it well. Its much much easier to start in MS and then move from there. Just the way things are, I highly doubt it will be possible to change.

Jake

[Gwain]

FYI: The biggest problem is the FINGER command. Try doing a Finger <Lanky or slender or tall or ugly... etc> It isn't the WHO list that is giving out people's names, it is the FINGER command.

I'd rather see the Finger command locked to only those that you known, and have it display their Adjective.... disabling the Privacy ability to block the feature.

I've always found the finger command will only display if someone is online or offline only if they have not greeted you. I have never been able to finger someone through an adjective and always assumed it was impossible. The only thing I find the finger command useful for is to see how long another pc has been on or how long your own pc has been on. I was not aware that the programming changed and now you could finger those you know and recieve information on their adjectives and such. Even if you could though, you are bound by rp to find a person's name icly or you can only work through assumption which is rp anyway. If you feel someone is bullying you oocly for your name because they learned it through the finger command or might using ooc info gained through it's use, please send an email to complaints@forgottenkingdoms.com or just do your best to rp accordingly.

But to be honest, if you have not greeted someone and you finger a name, you will recieve a message that the person is online or offline and not there adj. Only if they have greeted you will you recieve their adjective. If this has changed, then I am mistaken in my explanation and I can only tell you to take it with a grain of salt and do your best to rp around it or remove yourself from it.

Here's the helpfile for finger:

Syntax: finger <character>

The finger command allows you to gain information about a character even
if it is not currently on line. This information includes useful things
like when they were last on line.

I'm not sure how one can abuse the finger command or use adjectives that are not recognised by name, but I know the finger command is there to check if you are online or how much time you've been on for. I would think the inclusion of the adjective is merely an added bonus. Just my thoughts.

And in reference to the who list, I would rather have a person greet me and to learn about them through rp driven heresay then have to write a title for each person I meet. If you feel someone is abusing the who list by for example, sending you ungreeted tells based on your name, judging you without knowing you or spending time with you, or even making huge speculations about your pc with little or no obvious info then you have the right and choice in my opinion to rp accordingly or inform them occly that they are doing this and should stop, or to report them to an admin or send in a complaint if they continue. Do your best to rp and enjoy the mud itself. If you are lain low oocly, then you have the right to tell them to stop. Rp around pc's should be derived from ic information available to you and not ooc stuffing. Do your best and try to enjoy the game.

[Mele]

Okie, I'm all for a change in the way the who list works. Mainly from an HP perspective. If something is to be done, maybe temple/faith noteboards or something could be implemented as another way of contacting HPs, besides HPs seeing the hopeful titles, or being pounced on because someone sees the white who info. :) Sometimes I log in and feel like I haven't had a chance to breathe! lol Also, using the who list to find who to roleplay with is pretty cool for both people when it's two goods / two evils. Something you have to realize about looking at the who list with good/evil roleplay is that certain goods/evils are not always logging in for I don't know, hatred rp? If I make sense..

[Exer]

Okay, how about a compromise:

config -/+ who

With the default set to -. If you want your char to be seen on the who list without a greet, then adjust your config setting.

As the the finger command, I think it should be tweaked to no work with adjectives.

HP, IMM and NC would still get to see the whole who list.

Thoughts?

[Levine]

Perfect, I say.

Based on your suggestion, do we still see the total number of people online on the "who" list?

And about the finger command..

Is it alright to use it for people who haven't greeted us?

For example..

(Billy hasn't greeted me, by the way.)
finger billy
<usual "finger" info on billy shows up without his adjective>

.. Or should it not work this way too?

-gissy