Who list - suggestion

[Andreas]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I think the Who List is just fine the way it is. I've played elsemu* where you could only see people you knew... or only people in your area... or only people who shared your birthday and the moon was full... all kinds of crazy ideas about how not to let everyone know who is on the game. Personally, I think they all sucked. I like seeing who is playing. If I see my friends log on and I have time to RP, then yes, I'll try to find them and RP with them. It's also a way for me to determine which PC I need to be on. If I see what appears to be a lot of newbies on the Who List, then I tend to play my more socially interactive PCs who are more inclined to help others.

If anyone thinks there is some sort of abuse of OOC knowledge from the Who List going on, then send a report to complaints@forgottenkingdoms.com with as much detail as possible.

If players of characters in positions of power don't feel adequate to the task of dealing with their IC position, then maybe someone else needs to take over that position. Sound harsh? Probably, but along with the position comes the responsibility of holding it. Everyone else should at least have the decency to NOT swamp their faith leaders with tells etc. the second they notice them logged onto the game. The faith leaders can and will find who they need to find when they need to find them.

I never tried to use the Finger command on someone using only their adjective. I'm not sure it's supposed to work that way and it might be a bug.

[Zilvryn]

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

From the previous posts, it seems a fair amount of people think it is broke.

"If I see my friends log on and I have time to RP, then yes, i'll try to find them and RP with them."

From the suggestions being made, the one that seems to be gaining the most favour would allow you to be able to do that, even without your status as a NC member, as anybody greeted would show up on the who list.

"It's also a way for me to determine which PC I need to be on. If I see what appears to be a lot of newbies on the Who List, then I tend to play my more socially interactive PCs who are more inclined to help others. "

Again, NC members, such as yourself would be able to see everyone on the who list for precisely this reason.

"If players of characters in positions of power don't feel adequate to the task of dealing with their IC position, then maybe someone else needs to take over that position. Sound harsh? Probably, but along with the position comes the responsibility of holding it."

Harsh and a thinly veiled dig at Mele's player perhaps... no-need for that, people are having a sensible discussion here...

[Mele]

If players of characters in positions of power don't feel adequate to the task of dealing with their IC position, then maybe someone else needs to take over that position. Sound harsh? Probably, but along with the position comes the responsibility of holding it.

You want it? Take it. Until then, don't tell me you have any idea how it is. Don't tell me I am inadequate because sometimes I want to log MY characters on to ROLEPLAY. Stop using your dislike for me to ruin a discussion. You're not an immortal. You don't get to judge whether or not I can handle it because I said "Sometimes I feel like I can't breathe! lol" Call me crazy but that is not exactly saying I can't handle it. That is a lighthearted addition to the discussion at hand. That was a completely uncecessary public dig at me. Stop twinking your paladin and pointing fingers at everyone else for twinking. Make a Priest, take my HPs, or keep your rudeness to yourself. You could have posted your opinion without that jab. You're no better than anyone here. Take a step down. Sound harsh? About time someone was in reply.

[Athon]

It doesn't appear broke to me. You type 'who' and it lists the people online.

I've failed to be convinced in the reasoning behind changing the who list. I'd much rather prefer to see who is online, whether or not I've greeted them or they have greeted me. Why? That way I can see who I want to RP with. If I see a bunch of drow on, I'll be on my drow in a heartbeat. It's rare enough to see a group of drow on; if you want to prohibit the who list then we might as well remove the drow race. This doesn't just apply to drow. This could apply to evils, dwarves, other races, classes, etc.

As for the title, if you really don't want people to take a guess at who you are, don't put such info in the title. Remember the titling on the who list is IC. You're not forced to put such information as 'Follower of some evil god' for everyone else to figure out. Be creative. Make up an original title. That's one of the highlights of FK.

[Dalvyn]

Keep the discussion civil and on topic please.

I'm opposed to heavy moderation, but personal flame wars are better taken to non-public channels.

Adding my agreement to this sentiment - Lathander

[Gregal]

In reply to the many posts I just have to say that just because something is working for one person, and others see it as improvements then we can make those improvements, I bet you don't use your old 1990 computer that can still connect dial-up do you? Didn't think so, even though it wasn't broke you wanted to improve it or get a better one.

Many things can be done, Personally I feel that it would help any who feel playing a evil character. This mud is a little biased towards Good Characters and I would like to see a balance happen, I mean I had a discussion with a friend last night about neutrality and how many people view this a being evil because you choose to aid a evil cause. And the who list has been used as "Rumor" before. Just because the person has greeted doesn't mean they would say they Follow Cyric, or Shar. Maybe they Lie and say they do not follow a god, Lies being under Cyrics portfolio, or maybe they hide their servitude to Shar because all is hidden with the Sharites. So if we are going to keep titles they need to be handled IC. I for one would never tell anyone My goddess I follow even if they know my name. They can make a guess or assumption but I wouldn't think it would be very IC like especially if your character doesn't have the knowledge to back it up. Hence OOC Knowledge and IC Knowledge. You think a 16 yr old would know what you know of playing D&D for 6 yrs. Doubt it.

[Andreas]

As for the title, if you really don't want people to take a guess at who you are, don't put such info in the title. Remember the titling on the who list is IC. You're not forced to put such information as 'Follower of some evil god' for everyone else to figure out. Be creative. Make up an original title. That's one of the highlights of FK.

The only drawback to that is the faithing process. Right now people are pretty much required to put "Hopeful of [Deity]" etc. in their title as they go through the process of being faithed. On one hand I understand that this helps the faith leaders and Imms to see who needs to be faithed, but on the other hand some people will take that information completely IC and use it for good or ill in their RP.

Personally I'd rather see that requirement go away. If John Doe wants to worship Mask, then he should pray (once), ICly find others of that faith and RP the process without "advertising" it with a title.

[Mask]

I'm inclined to agree with you on that one Andreas, information such as who someone wishes to follow and how far they are along that path should be stored in a different medium than someone's title. Perhaps we need to add something different like 'levels' of following, and have those levels visible to the relevant people.

Just brain-storming here, but levels could range from 0 to say 5 with meanings such as:

0 - Doesn't worship any specific member of a pantheon.
1- Interested in learning more about a particular faith (this one can be set by the player by, for example, praying in a temple)
2 - Interested in becoming a follower of a particular faith (this one can also be set by the player, by using, for example, a 'devote' command in a temple)
3 - Questee - has received a quest from a relevant authority
4 - Devotee - has finished the quest and is now a follower of a deity
5 - Privileged devotee - high priests/faith manager (ie, a champion or whatever of a deity who can accept people into the faith).

Such IC information as the above levels is much better stored in a separate field, rather than in a viewable fashion such as a title.

Just some thoughts. With regards to people using the 'who' list to determine who you are OOCly, I don't think the answer is to restrict to only people who have greeted you. There remain many other OOC ways of finding out who someone is, and I don't think we can hope to plug them all. For example, I could just send an IM to a friend and ask 'who is a scarred, tall male half-elf?' or whatever...

Marty

[Glim]

Hmm, well, perhaps there could be a certain command that HP's, deities, and whoever else is relevant can see. It could be like a list for each deity. Then only certain people could have access to each deity's list. It would show the people who are on that are on the list. To add yourself to that list, you would merely have to type something like <Mystra hopeful> or <Mystra questee> or something like that. They wouldnt have access to the list, but they can add, change, and remove their names from the list.

ect:
Dalvyn types:
faithlist Mystra

John [Hopeful of Mystra]
Danny [Questee Mystra]
Bob [Initiate Mystra]
ect.

This would show who needs to know who is on and if they have been added to this list. It would keep such information hidden from all those except the ones who need to see it.

If a certain deity wanted to merely see all those who are online and on any god's list they could merely type:

faithlist

John [Hopeful of Mystra]
Cassandra [Initiate of Talona]
Jeff [Hopeful of Loviatar]
Danny [Questee Mystra]
Patty [Questee of Moradin]
Bob [Initiate Mystra]
ect.

Feedback welcome,

[Tortus]

I suppose faithed would show up in the faithlist as well, and not just the hopefuls?

Maybe if you combined Mask's idea with yours, Glim, you could use commands like:

faithlist
faithlist <deity>
faithlist <faithlevel> (#)
faithlist <faithlevel> <deity>

To make it a bit more manageable.

[Nearraba]

I think both Marty and Glim have wonderful ideas about the who system. Though Tortus idea comes a bit confusing to me, about the faithlevel and #.

I do think a change in the who list would be nice, though not necessarily needed pronto, because of all the other wonderful things that are being added and fixed.

There has been a few times were I was on my Alt who is hopeful of an evil god. I was shopping around WD and a good aligned char came in, glared after looking at me, and walked off. So, I don't think that it is always the who list that gives people the knowledge that someone is hopeful\follower of a god. Sometimes, it is the spice of your description. Though on other hand, sometimes it is the who list.

Just my thought.

[Gregal]

I totally Agree Nicholette, I mean the whole number thing would show how far along in the faithing process that the character is. Tortus this is a very good way to put it, But I still would have to disagree with the Title thing, I guess if I was to put Sephany, Blightlord of Talona...not everyone would I know I follow Talona unless I told them. It would only be a who list thing because others want to see it to see if anyone is on they want to rp with, But I could just leave that out and just leave my name as plain "Sephany" and only allies I would introduce myself as "Blightlord." So I would have to agree with all the posts, they have wonderful ideas and make excellent solutions.

[Rhytania]

I think the who list is fine. Its the Faithing System that needs revamp. I think Masks idea would serve the purpose best.

[Tortus]

Hm, I realize I went a bit off topic, but to "fix" the who-list, maybe the faith system needs to be revamped, as Rhy said.

I suggested that you'd combine Mask's and Glim's ideas, to make it easier on the imms, or whoever would get the faithlist command. I'll throw in a few examples.

The command "faithlist" only, would yield something like:
> faithlist
<char>: <faithlevel> - <deity>
Aea: 1 - Mystra
Baor: 3 - Lathander
Dalvyn: 5 - Mystra
Gurg: 4 - Gruumsh
Ilas: 3 - Mielikki
Molian: 2 - Helm
Norka: 4 - Gruumsh
Zylx: 0

Specify a deity at the same time and it''ll show (with Mystra as the specified deity):
> faithlist Mystra
<char>: <faithlevel> - Mystra
Aea: 1 - Mystra
Dalvyn: 5 - Mystra

Specify a faithlevel:
> faithlist 3
<char>: 3 - <deity>
Baor: 3 - Lathander
Ilas: 3 - Mielikki

Specify both:
> faithlist 4 Gruumsh
<char>: 4 - Gruumsh
Gurg: 4 - Gruumsh
Norka: 4 - Gruumsh


Hope that'll clear things up. It's three in the morning, and my hands are half frozen. :p

[Nearraba]

Oh, alright now I understand, sorry wasnt thinking straight.
That idea seems rather neat.

[Glim]

0 - Doesn't worship any specific member of a pantheon.
1- Interested in learning more about a particular faith (this one can be set by the player by, for example, praying in a temple)
2 - Interested in becoming a follower of a particular faith (this one can also be set by the player, by using, for example, a 'devote' command in a temple)
3 - Questee - has received a quest from a relevant authority
4 - Devotee - has finished the quest and is now a follower of a deity
5 - Privileged devotee - high priests/faith manager (ie, a champion or whatever of a deity who can accept people into the faith).

Just one thing, I would like to give a couple of suggestions about this list, if you dont mind, Marty. So I will give a modified list here:

0. "Agnostic" Just fine

I believe that the "just looking" stage should be removed, as this could be applied by one character to many faiths, so that this should really be invisible and up to the character until they decide an actual faith to begin the path upon.

1. The "hopeful" stage. Just fine, as I see it.

2. The "questee" stage. Just fine.

3. Now, I believe right before the "devotee" stage, there should be an "initiate" stage. Where the character has finished their faithing quest and not yet received their symbol. This could be used by the gods and HPs to determine who they need to give a symbol to.

4. The "devotee" stage. Has done the quest and received a symbol. The "flock" of the god. Just fine.

5. Faith leader. Just fine

Now, didnt change much. Merely stage 1 and stage 3.

Thanks, feedback always welcome.

[Argentia]

I would agree with Rhytania, that the who list itself is fine the way it is, though the hopeful of system could use some touch-ups. I have a character or two who have a hand in... less than reputable situations and business relationships. Due to the nature of these interactions, certain characters don't give out their name, or give a fake one, and hence do not greet. But with the proposed system, characters like these would fall into obscuration, because you never would know if they're online or not. With the current system, OOCly you may have figured out their name through the who list, but you only use that for contacting them or seeing if their online.

I see the obvious merits of the proposed system, but I don't feel that we should change the system that, in my opinion, already works because some people are treating certain information as given. If you have Evildude, hopeful of Cyric, and someone accuses you of being what you are even though you've never mentioned said hopefulness to anyway, you can always say things like "you must have me confused with someone else" and be the "better man" in RPing, so-to-speak. Instead of recoding the who system, I think it'd be better to change the rule that everything on the who list is IC hearsay, to only those with white titles(HPs, HKs, guild heros, ect.).

And no offense, Nea, but if you're Evildude, Dreadmaster of Bane and you're getting glares in WD... No offense but maybe it's the way you look. People who are dressed all in black or have a shady look about them(As most evils do, it's what can make them fun ) IRL may often get wierd looks, too. And FR can be a much more judgmental place with more racial prejudices and public ignorance, suspicions, ect.

Anyway, I'm not trying to bash anyone or single anyone out, and sorry if anything I said came across that way.

[Theillik]

I agree with Argentia.

The who list is fine like it is.

If I log on and I see that no one else is on, I log off. What's the point of logging on, if I know there's no one I can rp with?

If people are really there to rp, then they can differentiate between PC knowledge and OOC knowledge. I know it makes it more difficult to rp when you know that Evildude, hopeful of Cyric is standing beside you (even though he hasn't greeted). But! As Argentia said, be the "better man" in rping, play it like your character has no idea.

But Argentia is definitely on to something when she says that evils tend to dress evil. If I were to play a thief, I'd do my best to not dress the part.

[Raona]

As a young player seeking to learn more about the faiths, I want to point out that while I accept that there are (potential) problems with the current system, the indication of faith in one's title also offers some benefits.

If I want to learn about Mask or Cyric, Ilmater or Helm, at present there is a relatively easy - and discrete - way to do so. I can ask after a certain individual, rather than a diety. Granted, with the WHO list modifications being suggested, I could still learn of and ask after the leader in a given faith; then I could ask that individual for the names of others I might contact to learn more about the faith. However, in this scenario, the faith leader is put in a position of having to judge my sincerity (or am I a spy), as well as having to deal with most everyone merely curious about the faith. It increases the burden on these characters, and also allows them to steer potential followers away from the crazies of their faith. It makes things harder still for small faiths without a high-profile (or frequently logged) leader.

If the WHO list modifications discussed above are made, I would strongly suggest keeping Mask's 'just looking' stage in the faithlist. That would serve to fill in a gap I believe would be created by suggested changes to the WHO command. Granted, many are interested in multiple faiths at once, but being able to at least specify one gives patient players a chance to encounter and learn about others in that faith. I would go so far as to suggest that it may make sense for young characters to see the faithlist for their own faith, including those in the 'just looking' stage...so that those interested in learning of Mask, for example, might be discretely approached by any playing the faith at the time the interested individual is on. But then again that could open up other problems, not yet considered.

As an aside on all of this - it would seem to me that anyone bopping about with a Holy Symbol around their neck can hardly hope to conceal their faith. To more experienced players, even the color scheme of one's apparel seems to be designed precisely to give it away. Is there a place for concealing and/or misrepresenting one's faith in FK? Does doing so risk incurring the wrath of the god to whom you bring false witness?

[Mele]

I disagree with evil clothing. If you live in WD and follow a good god, chances are you're not going to know what every single evil faith's clothing looks like. I know we all know black and purple or black and red to be certain evils deitys clothing color in the game but your character should not know exactly what colors every evil temple seamstress is making. Plain old black clothing is sold so many places. It's the color of the basic leather gear most people get to begin with. It's one of the easiest colors to accessorize with, and easiest to find in the game. I know plenty of goods who wear black. I can name four off the top of my heads, who are well known, very well played good characters, who wear black.

As for faith leaders feeling extra stress over wondering if people are just spies, etc. I tend to wonder that with people with a hopeful title ICly. You definately wonder of everyones sincerity, you're giving them a symbol of the God that you positively love and devote your everything to. With or without that title, you look for those things. :) But teaching about the faith is not something to worry about a security breech, to me. I've taught goods about Lovi as Daunyelle before. HP's want to spread their gods way generally. :)