Something that is being discussed in another thread, but I would like to also have the opinions of all those who want to give it.
Do people level up too quickly?
Are low-level skills/spells useful if people just level up and use mainly/only the higher level skills/spells? (e.g., who cares about shocking grasp when they can learn and cast chain lightining after training/levelling up for 2/3 hours?)
Would slowing down the levelling-up rate allow people to find the "feeling of achievement" you know when you level up in a table-top game?
What do you think about setting a timer on levelling-up (i.e. you need X hours online before you can level up to level Y [most likely only for Y >= 11])?
Construction comments and ideas welcome!
Debate: Do people level up too quickly?
I have limited experience levelling here, but as far as I know there is no stricture on how quickly one can level up in terms of the code, which would mean that if someone knows exactly how to get a character to level 50 in 5 hours then they could easily do so.
Perhaps rather than have things be a matter of time online vs level, a solution could be tied to kismet itself. I assume that it would be possible to actually lose kismet over time based on factors rather than gain it, so consider this. If someone levels up particularly high very quickly, they would actually lose kismet until the character gains some substantial time. Perhaps it could also be proportional to the total amount of kismet that you have as well, so that it's fair to both newer and older players. I will spell it out in an example just so everyone is clear on what I am suggesting.
Monty has been playing on FK for years, he has 2000 kismet these days in addition to about 10 characters. He decides to make a new character and about 5 hours after his name is approved, he is level 30. But then oops, he looks at his kismet and he sees that since he has passed some reasonable mark, he is losing 5% of his kismet per hour rather than gaining one per hour. He stops levelling and decides to catch up his level with his hours... say he only needs 10 more before it figures out that he is in a reasonable place, he has still lost about 800 kismet, which is analagous to the cost of a powerful race character.
Therefore because Monty wanted a strong powerful character quick, he has to pay the kismet cost for what is in effect a near-instant high level character. If he does not want to lose kismet, he will deliberately slow his levelling. I also think that perhaps this system could be based more on experience than level, because there would be nothing to prevent someone from gaining the experience necessary to level but choosing not to to avoid the level strictures in any system.
I think this idea might be more likely to prevent people from quickly levelling because it will harm them if they do, rather than simply level capping them based on their number of hours which will result in people levelling, then idling for an hour, then levelling again, then idling an hour, etc.
Perhaps rather than have things be a matter of time online vs level, a solution could be tied to kismet itself. I assume that it would be possible to actually lose kismet over time based on factors rather than gain it, so consider this. If someone levels up particularly high very quickly, they would actually lose kismet until the character gains some substantial time. Perhaps it could also be proportional to the total amount of kismet that you have as well, so that it's fair to both newer and older players. I will spell it out in an example just so everyone is clear on what I am suggesting.
Monty has been playing on FK for years, he has 2000 kismet these days in addition to about 10 characters. He decides to make a new character and about 5 hours after his name is approved, he is level 30. But then oops, he looks at his kismet and he sees that since he has passed some reasonable mark, he is losing 5% of his kismet per hour rather than gaining one per hour. He stops levelling and decides to catch up his level with his hours... say he only needs 10 more before it figures out that he is in a reasonable place, he has still lost about 800 kismet, which is analagous to the cost of a powerful race character.
Therefore because Monty wanted a strong powerful character quick, he has to pay the kismet cost for what is in effect a near-instant high level character. If he does not want to lose kismet, he will deliberately slow his levelling. I also think that perhaps this system could be based more on experience than level, because there would be nothing to prevent someone from gaining the experience necessary to level but choosing not to to avoid the level strictures in any system.
I think this idea might be more likely to prevent people from quickly levelling because it will harm them if they do, rather than simply level capping them based on their number of hours which will result in people levelling, then idling for an hour, then levelling again, then idling an hour, etc.
Do people level up too quickly?
In answer to this, I would say, yes. Some people do. And, not meaning to create dissension, but some classes level up too quickly compared to others. Invokers, for instance, level up very fast. I can imagine that illusionists level up quite slowly, and from personal experience I know that mages trickle up the levels. Fighters level up very fast, too. I once created a fighter, and had her to level 30 in about three days. So, part of the problem I think is the inequality between levelling. Either all people should level up fast, or all level up slow. But that's probably a major class-balance issue.
Are low-level skills/spells useful if people just level up and use mainly/only the higher level skills/spells? (e.g., who cares about shocking grasp when they can learn and cast chain lightining after training/levelling up for 2/3 hours?)
I would say that low-level spells (the only thing I really have experience on) are largely useless. Even with wizards, you only spend a short amount of time around level 10-20. So, the spells that are "staple" around those levels become obsolete very quickly, replaced by the level 20-30 spells. As a long-term wizard, I very very rarely use these low-level spells, except for magic missile...
Would slowing down the levelling-up rate allow people to find the "feeling of achievement" you know when you level up in a table-top game?
I don't know. Personally, I think if we spend more time on certain levels, it makes your next level much more... exciting. But, because generally upon levelling you only gain a small hp/mana increase, I think that generally the true satisfaction comes every five levels, with stat/feat points. If the levelling-up rate were slowed down, perhaps some extra things to make each individual level gain more useful could be added. Some ideas of this could be a higher growth in mana (though I know the whole magic system will be changed) and health. Basically, if levels become harder to attain, then the rewards should be slightly better, is my personal thought.
What do you think about setting a timer on levelling-up (i.e. you need X hours online before you can level up to level Y [most likely only for Y >= 11])?
I'm not sure. Someone with 10 hours of roleplay could have contributed more to the mud than someone with 300 hours of killing. If we were going to make it so that xp is not "stored" (much like it is after L40), then this would have a positive effect.
One alternative to the timer, I can see, could be instituting a series of "sponsors". These are people who can observe RP either as imms or players, and "sponsor" a person to ascend past level 20, and each consecutive "decade" after that. This however, would add to the administration of it all... so... I don't know.
I'm not sure if anything I've written has been at all helpful... but those are some of my half-formed thoughts about this.
In answer to this, I would say, yes. Some people do. And, not meaning to create dissension, but some classes level up too quickly compared to others. Invokers, for instance, level up very fast. I can imagine that illusionists level up quite slowly, and from personal experience I know that mages trickle up the levels. Fighters level up very fast, too. I once created a fighter, and had her to level 30 in about three days. So, part of the problem I think is the inequality between levelling. Either all people should level up fast, or all level up slow. But that's probably a major class-balance issue.
Are low-level skills/spells useful if people just level up and use mainly/only the higher level skills/spells? (e.g., who cares about shocking grasp when they can learn and cast chain lightining after training/levelling up for 2/3 hours?)
I would say that low-level spells (the only thing I really have experience on) are largely useless. Even with wizards, you only spend a short amount of time around level 10-20. So, the spells that are "staple" around those levels become obsolete very quickly, replaced by the level 20-30 spells. As a long-term wizard, I very very rarely use these low-level spells, except for magic missile...
Would slowing down the levelling-up rate allow people to find the "feeling of achievement" you know when you level up in a table-top game?
I don't know. Personally, I think if we spend more time on certain levels, it makes your next level much more... exciting. But, because generally upon levelling you only gain a small hp/mana increase, I think that generally the true satisfaction comes every five levels, with stat/feat points. If the levelling-up rate were slowed down, perhaps some extra things to make each individual level gain more useful could be added. Some ideas of this could be a higher growth in mana (though I know the whole magic system will be changed) and health. Basically, if levels become harder to attain, then the rewards should be slightly better, is my personal thought.
What do you think about setting a timer on levelling-up (i.e. you need X hours online before you can level up to level Y [most likely only for Y >= 11])?
I'm not sure. Someone with 10 hours of roleplay could have contributed more to the mud than someone with 300 hours of killing. If we were going to make it so that xp is not "stored" (much like it is after L40), then this would have a positive effect.
One alternative to the timer, I can see, could be instituting a series of "sponsors". These are people who can observe RP either as imms or players, and "sponsor" a person to ascend past level 20, and each consecutive "decade" after that. This however, would add to the administration of it all... so... I don't know.
I'm not sure if anything I've written has been at all helpful... but those are some of my half-formed thoughts about this.
If you have knowledge, let others light their candles with it.
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
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Theillik
I think that it is too easy to level up, yes. Though, my wizards to not level up as fast as my warriors.
I think that there should be a time gage set on levelling up. My suggestion would be 20 hours for every ten levels. So, to reach level 20, you must have 20 hours of game time, 40 hours for level 30, 60 hours for level 40, and maybe 10 hours for every level after level 40. I suppose people could spend all their time fighting. It's their loss, because they will wouldn't be levelling up.
I think if a timing gage was put on levelling, advancing with weapons and skills should remain the same.
And I think that if a timing gage was put on levelling that characters should be able to travel distances according to their constitution, not according to level. There's nothing more annoying than having your level 15 character get tired just from walking across town.
Yup, that's my view.
I think that there should be a time gage set on levelling up. My suggestion would be 20 hours for every ten levels. So, to reach level 20, you must have 20 hours of game time, 40 hours for level 30, 60 hours for level 40, and maybe 10 hours for every level after level 40. I suppose people could spend all their time fighting. It's their loss, because they will wouldn't be levelling up.
I think if a timing gage was put on levelling, advancing with weapons and skills should remain the same.
And I think that if a timing gage was put on levelling that characters should be able to travel distances according to their constitution, not according to level. There's nothing more annoying than having your level 15 character get tired just from walking across town.
Yup, that's my view.
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Amalia
- Sword Grand Master
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I would love to see a leveling timescale-- I think it would even be nice to see something on the order of 50 hours per ten levels after 10 (or 25 hours in increments of 5), though that may seem a bit steep. It's easy to stay within that limit if you roleplay, it would help those who really want to level still have plenty of XP left over during their "down-times" to buy skills and such (which is always a good thing), and if "everyone was doing it" those who might wish to level more slowly for IC reasons wouldn't end up feeling left out because all their once-pudsy comrades are suddely quasi-legends and they're still level 20 or 25.
Also, the wearing out quickly thing is indeed annoying. Perhaps if a very slow-advancing, non-trainable skill were added for walking (even an invisible skill) the idea that those who walk more tire less easily could be preserved, and there still wouldn't be the problem of highly resistant characters huffing and puffing from a leisurely walk through Waterdeep.
Also, the wearing out quickly thing is indeed annoying. Perhaps if a very slow-advancing, non-trainable skill were added for walking (even an invisible skill) the idea that those who walk more tire less easily could be preserved, and there still wouldn't be the problem of highly resistant characters huffing and puffing from a leisurely walk through Waterdeep.
Dear Enemy: May the Lord hate you and all your kind, may you be turned orange in hue, and may your head fall off at an awkward moment.
I agree with most of the comments above about levelling speed, the situation can be even more extreme in certain cases. I am sure i could level up a Drow warrior to level 50 very quickly due to the large amount of XP available, however as others have commented mages and clerics are much slower to level. I think this is partly to do with the amount of XP they spend on spells as well as the need to regenerate mana.
I am not sure there is a good answer to this though a maximum level per hours is reasonable. Personally i think it should be an increasing scale so that the first few levels can be gained relativley quickly then slower until the last few take a higher number of hours.
As far as a feeling of achivement goes level itself does not give me much of a feeling of reward, for me it is learning new skills, spells and feats. And the fact that the rarer skills require quests and searching out goes some way to balance the head long rush to high level. In fact my only level 50 character is a warrior, all the others are well below despite a lot of hours of play in most cases.
Duranamir
I am not sure there is a good answer to this though a maximum level per hours is reasonable. Personally i think it should be an increasing scale so that the first few levels can be gained relativley quickly then slower until the last few take a higher number of hours.
As far as a feeling of achivement goes level itself does not give me much of a feeling of reward, for me it is learning new skills, spells and feats. And the fact that the rarer skills require quests and searching out goes some way to balance the head long rush to high level. In fact my only level 50 character is a warrior, all the others are well below despite a lot of hours of play in most cases.
Duranamir
My thoughts regarding the leveling system seem to be pretty much in line with the rest - warriors improve far too fast, mages are too slow, etc. My main comment I would like to add, however, deals with the spelllevels.
I've come to find more use using low-level spells than high-level spells. Why? Simply the cost of mana - but I know this may be changing soon with a revamped spell system. But currently lower-level spells are more effective and more damaging in the long run. Sure, I can take down two or three enemies quickly with my flame arrows, but by then I've already run out of mana and am helpless against more enemies. With the lower-level spells (my personal favorites are magic missile, chill touch, shocking grasp, and sound burst) I am able to still defeat the enemy in a routine process while preserving myself for future battles. The only time a high-level spell is useful is when I am fighting a single, powerful mob. Other than that, I perfer the lower levels.
I'm not sure whether or not this should be fixed - magic missile could be considered the 'bread and butter' spell for wizards. But if it was to be fixed I would suggest to target the higher-level spells. Make them cost much less mana, but take a considerably longer time to cast. Most of these spells take a couple rounds to cast. This could make the high level spells much more effective yet keeping them in good balance.
I've come to find more use using low-level spells than high-level spells. Why? Simply the cost of mana - but I know this may be changing soon with a revamped spell system. But currently lower-level spells are more effective and more damaging in the long run. Sure, I can take down two or three enemies quickly with my flame arrows, but by then I've already run out of mana and am helpless against more enemies. With the lower-level spells (my personal favorites are magic missile, chill touch, shocking grasp, and sound burst) I am able to still defeat the enemy in a routine process while preserving myself for future battles. The only time a high-level spell is useful is when I am fighting a single, powerful mob. Other than that, I perfer the lower levels.
I'm not sure whether or not this should be fixed - magic missile could be considered the 'bread and butter' spell for wizards. But if it was to be fixed I would suggest to target the higher-level spells. Make them cost much less mana, but take a considerably longer time to cast. Most of these spells take a couple rounds to cast. This could make the high level spells much more effective yet keeping them in good balance.
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Rhytania
- Sword Grand Master
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I beleive on the old forums before we moved here way back in the day there was a suggestion that after level 40 you could only learn level from a PC that was an established char in either your faith or profession. Call me a heretic but this has appealed to me due to the fact of there is basically no safeguards to prevent a level jump from 30 - 50 over the spann over a week. Most people barely have their characters RP established well enough at the 100 hour mark, let alone be a high level powerhouse in under a week. If it was up to me Id vote that you could level from mobs to level 30, to level 30 - 40 you need a char that is at least 40 - 50, and to level 40 - 50, youll need at least a 50 or 51 level char. Of course these levels wont be free, they should incure some cost and probably require some quest or mission given to prove their worth. Just my thoughts though. This would help by thinning out our top heavy population just a bit and slow it down enough to make a difference.
Balance issues
As a follow up the comments i have already made re leveling speed i think a lot of these issues including the imbalance between fighters and other class's can be traced back to the re-pop process and the limits on item repop. I will try and explain.
Presuming a Mob A of level 15 who is equiped with a weapon and armour + shield, It will be a serious threat to characters of a similar level and will give out a healthy amount of XP (rightly due to the risk players take in fighting it). Also because of the weapon it wields it is much more likley to damage players wearing armour (warriors mostly) and also damage there armour. All in all a good mob. After a few repops because of the equipment limits the mob will repop with no equipment. The mob is now not a threat to anyone in armour due to hand to hand damage being so ineffective but still gives out the same XP. A warrior in good armour can now waltz through an effectivley unlimited number of these mobs gaining loads of XP at no real risk.
I understand that due to system issues as well as not wanting players to e able to get huge amounts of money by getting lots of equipment and selling it, it is neccessary to have a cap on items. However i think there needs to be some way of removing items from the game over time allowing the mobs to be rearmed so setting them back to the appropriate threat level.
Resulting question's
As shop keepers are the usual final destination of items can they be changed to empty there inventorys more often (As waterdeep merchants do i think ) and remove the build up of items ?
The other problem is then equipment just left lying around the game. If some scavenger mobs were placed in the item heavy areas and tidyed up and destroyed spare items it might solve some of the problem, though they should only target in area equipment so that they do not destroy player weapons etc. If possible they should only act when there are no players in the room.
Any comments ?
Duranamir.
As a follow up the comments i have already made re leveling speed i think a lot of these issues including the imbalance between fighters and other class's can be traced back to the re-pop process and the limits on item repop. I will try and explain.
Presuming a Mob A of level 15 who is equiped with a weapon and armour + shield, It will be a serious threat to characters of a similar level and will give out a healthy amount of XP (rightly due to the risk players take in fighting it). Also because of the weapon it wields it is much more likley to damage players wearing armour (warriors mostly) and also damage there armour. All in all a good mob. After a few repops because of the equipment limits the mob will repop with no equipment. The mob is now not a threat to anyone in armour due to hand to hand damage being so ineffective but still gives out the same XP. A warrior in good armour can now waltz through an effectivley unlimited number of these mobs gaining loads of XP at no real risk.
I understand that due to system issues as well as not wanting players to e able to get huge amounts of money by getting lots of equipment and selling it, it is neccessary to have a cap on items. However i think there needs to be some way of removing items from the game over time allowing the mobs to be rearmed so setting them back to the appropriate threat level.
Resulting question's
As shop keepers are the usual final destination of items can they be changed to empty there inventorys more often (As waterdeep merchants do i think ) and remove the build up of items ?
The other problem is then equipment just left lying around the game. If some scavenger mobs were placed in the item heavy areas and tidyed up and destroyed spare items it might solve some of the problem, though they should only target in area equipment so that they do not destroy player weapons etc. If possible they should only act when there are no players in the room.
Any comments ?
Duranamir.
Perhaps it would be easier to allow them to level at will, but limit access to skills/spells until they have gained X amount of hours on the game, with each gain of say 15 hours, they can have access to such and such skill/spell/feat. If they think leveling to 50 is the end all and be all then make it so they can't access what it is they are really after.
Reaching to level 50 means, you are an experienced one, ICly, to me. That is why I cannot see a reason why would a character with 50 hours would reach 50..Although, it would be an obvious twink, there is not a code based disallowance over that.. I agree with previous posts, if available, there would be a code arrangement about it. Even you have "may advance" xps, if you have not reached the hour limitation, then there would be an echo like "You are not experienced enough for leveling up".
Personally, Ninde reached to level 50 after 900 hours..That might be too late, perhaps, but a time limitation would also prevent people from twinking, even can force them for roleplay more.
Personally, Ninde reached to level 50 after 900 hours..That might be too late, perhaps, but a time limitation would also prevent people from twinking, even can force them for roleplay more.
who ever cared about someone's levels and complained that they leveled too quickly?
Do you actually feel somehow indignant when you see someone with 10 hrs at lvl 40 as opposed to just smiling to yourself that they don't understand yet it's just a game about fun which comes from roleplay?
I am not defending myself or anyone else here, but the purpose of adding hour restrictions escape me. Roleplay is not forced, and twinkers get no fun out of this game, which is punishment enough. Reading this, I find that I, apparently, lvl my chars off-the-chart-ly-fast, but I'd never enjoyed killing text-monsters and gaining experience thusly, I just find it easier to play once I'm at a lvl when I have enough movement points to move around properly and can handle fairly mundane obstacles such as bandits.
My first character was well into the 30s before I had anything worked out in the game. I don't consider that too fast because neither lvl 30 nor lvl 50 gives you any status in the game. Only time spent on RP does. However, if I had to wait 25 hrs before reaching lvl 15 I would not have stayed. What is a drow in Menzo supposed to do for 25 hrs when he'll hardly find another player to talk to? All we'd get is a lot more AFK chars sitting there doing nothing, and a presumable decrease in player base.
I do not think the majority of these people would be twinkers. The game really isn't as attractive to twinkers as some might think.
Do you actually feel somehow indignant when you see someone with 10 hrs at lvl 40 as opposed to just smiling to yourself that they don't understand yet it's just a game about fun which comes from roleplay?
I am not defending myself or anyone else here, but the purpose of adding hour restrictions escape me. Roleplay is not forced, and twinkers get no fun out of this game, which is punishment enough. Reading this, I find that I, apparently, lvl my chars off-the-chart-ly-fast, but I'd never enjoyed killing text-monsters and gaining experience thusly, I just find it easier to play once I'm at a lvl when I have enough movement points to move around properly and can handle fairly mundane obstacles such as bandits.
My first character was well into the 30s before I had anything worked out in the game. I don't consider that too fast because neither lvl 30 nor lvl 50 gives you any status in the game. Only time spent on RP does. However, if I had to wait 25 hrs before reaching lvl 15 I would not have stayed. What is a drow in Menzo supposed to do for 25 hrs when he'll hardly find another player to talk to? All we'd get is a lot more AFK chars sitting there doing nothing, and a presumable decrease in player base.
I do not think the majority of these people would be twinkers. The game really isn't as attractive to twinkers as some might think.
Chars: Aryvael et all.
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Raona
- Staff
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Too fast for my tastes
As someone who has trouble finding the time to play a single character, I'd like to ask (rhetorically) what the advantage is of relatively facile levelling.
On the surface it might seem that I'm a prime candidate for wanting very rapid advancement, or at least the possibililty of it. Personally, however, I have found advancement to level 30-something very facile indeed, and this has actually been a detriment, a challenge, and even a frustration in most regards. Granted, I play a Paladin hopeful: and thus I am a warrior, leveling relatively readily (I can't attest to this comparison, but all on thread seem to agree this is the case), and in a race against the clock to pick a faith and seek to become a squire. Nonetheless, the only advantage I feel I have gained in reaching level 30-something is the relative freedom to move about the Realms, no longer fearful of dying at the hands of a hill giant should I bump into one. I do enjoy the freedom to explore on my own at my own pace, not holding up someone who already knows their way around. But in other regards - as a new player creating my first PC - my level has gone up more quickly than my in-game smarts, both IC and OOC. I have gotten my stat points faster than I have known what to do with them. (How to wisely allocate them.) I have struggled to learn about the various dieties IC and in doing so may have advanced to a level where becomming a squire is more difficult. I find I am at level 30-something and have barely scratched the surface of the mysteries of the Realms.
So, my personal opinions:
1) Tie advancement rate to lifetime Kismet. I could see being in a hurry to gain levels if I already knew my way around FK, OOC. Easy way - some kind of XP multiplier. Corollary advantage: some hack-and-slash twink doesn't jump in here from another game and have the power to play the mindless brute in a hurry.
2) Let/encourage/force people to leave the temple and explore sooner; say that levels 5-10 can only be gained outside the temple, under the protection of the less-than-10 recall advantage?
3) If we really want to frustrate twinks (?), install a "rate limiter" that either reduces XP rewards or (more effective, I think), makes a given mob more powerful if the PC has leveled relatively quickly. Maybe I'm imagining things, but the latter already seems to occur in relation to the number of players in the game - and it makes sense, to encourage grouping when grouping is possible. If that's true, extending it to make goblins and bandits able to pound on level 30-something twinks who go on all-day killing sprees shouldn't be hard to implement. Perhaps not terribly realistic IC, but on the other hand perhaps one's reputation becomes so white-hot that all the goblin and bandit superheroes decide they want to take you down and save Gotham.
4) As a corollary to slower levelling, slow aging as well. I'll be an old woman by the time I'm faithed, as things currently stand, but I have myself to blame for that. (Didn't emerge from the womb well versed on the dieties!) But I'd probably be quite sore at being a 65-year-old level 20 player to boot.
Oh, and a bit peripheral to the topic, but
5) Have warriors expressing the intent to become a Paladin advance more slowly. Also have them get warnings from the Ranger and Fighter guildmasters when they make their offers to join up that accepting constitutes a one-way seque off the path to knighthood
These ideas being worth their salt or not, I do feel warriors level too readily and quickly; and having seen other classes go from yearlings to my betters in a flash, I think other classes level plenty fast as well, when someone has the time or inclination to make that happen. That can lead to odd situations, because age advances independent of logged-in time, but advancement does not.
On the surface it might seem that I'm a prime candidate for wanting very rapid advancement, or at least the possibililty of it. Personally, however, I have found advancement to level 30-something very facile indeed, and this has actually been a detriment, a challenge, and even a frustration in most regards. Granted, I play a Paladin hopeful: and thus I am a warrior, leveling relatively readily (I can't attest to this comparison, but all on thread seem to agree this is the case), and in a race against the clock to pick a faith and seek to become a squire. Nonetheless, the only advantage I feel I have gained in reaching level 30-something is the relative freedom to move about the Realms, no longer fearful of dying at the hands of a hill giant should I bump into one. I do enjoy the freedom to explore on my own at my own pace, not holding up someone who already knows their way around. But in other regards - as a new player creating my first PC - my level has gone up more quickly than my in-game smarts, both IC and OOC. I have gotten my stat points faster than I have known what to do with them. (How to wisely allocate them.) I have struggled to learn about the various dieties IC and in doing so may have advanced to a level where becomming a squire is more difficult. I find I am at level 30-something and have barely scratched the surface of the mysteries of the Realms.
So, my personal opinions:
1) Tie advancement rate to lifetime Kismet. I could see being in a hurry to gain levels if I already knew my way around FK, OOC. Easy way - some kind of XP multiplier. Corollary advantage: some hack-and-slash twink doesn't jump in here from another game and have the power to play the mindless brute in a hurry.
2) Let/encourage/force people to leave the temple and explore sooner; say that levels 5-10 can only be gained outside the temple, under the protection of the less-than-10 recall advantage?
3) If we really want to frustrate twinks (?), install a "rate limiter" that either reduces XP rewards or (more effective, I think), makes a given mob more powerful if the PC has leveled relatively quickly. Maybe I'm imagining things, but the latter already seems to occur in relation to the number of players in the game - and it makes sense, to encourage grouping when grouping is possible. If that's true, extending it to make goblins and bandits able to pound on level 30-something twinks who go on all-day killing sprees shouldn't be hard to implement. Perhaps not terribly realistic IC, but on the other hand perhaps one's reputation becomes so white-hot that all the goblin and bandit superheroes decide they want to take you down and save Gotham.
4) As a corollary to slower levelling, slow aging as well. I'll be an old woman by the time I'm faithed, as things currently stand, but I have myself to blame for that. (Didn't emerge from the womb well versed on the dieties!) But I'd probably be quite sore at being a 65-year-old level 20 player to boot.
Oh, and a bit peripheral to the topic, but
5) Have warriors expressing the intent to become a Paladin advance more slowly. Also have them get warnings from the Ranger and Fighter guildmasters when they make their offers to join up that accepting constitutes a one-way seque off the path to knighthood
These ideas being worth their salt or not, I do feel warriors level too readily and quickly; and having seen other classes go from yearlings to my betters in a flash, I think other classes level plenty fast as well, when someone has the time or inclination to make that happen. That can lead to odd situations, because age advances independent of logged-in time, but advancement does not.
Last edited by Raona on Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
In my opinion, lvl 50 characters are downplayed. They should be VERY powerful. The equivalent of a lvl 20 character in D&D. Now, the reason I think this is is that it is so easy to get to lvl 50 for some. I only have 2 lvl 50 characters, one took alot of hard work and many many many many hours. The other was way easier than it should be really. One character I have so low 40s and I simply do not train him anymore because it is SO hard to do so.
Now, groups are a thing. In my opinion, on this mud, groups are not used for levelling except in certain cases (especially groups of 4 or more, 2 can be used for levelling). Most of the time, they are used for having fun adventuring. It usually takes many many many hours for any character to get to a very high level, and most people do not stay in a group for long enough to get any work done. Yes there is an experience bonus for levelling, but from what I can see, it is not enough to give people an incentive to group to level.
Levelling and adventuring are two different things on this mud. Levelling is usually what you do when you kill the same creature over and over and over again, no group wants to do that. Adventuring is going through an area, doing quests, reading descriptions, solving puzzles.
From my experience, too fast of a levelling makes powerful characters downplayed, by everyone. While too slow means that people will just not put the effort into it.
To answer your first question, Dalvyn. I would say yes, for CERTAIN classes.
The second question. Low level spells can be very useful, merely because, as Athon said, they take very little mana.
Third question. I am not sure, I think this would only happen if high level characters were not downplayed as they are. This is done by players and by builders. Because at the moment, level 50 is not something rare or even something that people would think matters. A lvl 50 character is nothing to a lvl 20 character in table top.
The fourth, this has been discussed before, and I liked it, but I was told that because some people do not have the same amount of time to play the game as others, that they should not be hindered in that respect.
Now, groups are a thing. In my opinion, on this mud, groups are not used for levelling except in certain cases (especially groups of 4 or more, 2 can be used for levelling). Most of the time, they are used for having fun adventuring. It usually takes many many many hours for any character to get to a very high level, and most people do not stay in a group for long enough to get any work done. Yes there is an experience bonus for levelling, but from what I can see, it is not enough to give people an incentive to group to level.
Levelling and adventuring are two different things on this mud. Levelling is usually what you do when you kill the same creature over and over and over again, no group wants to do that. Adventuring is going through an area, doing quests, reading descriptions, solving puzzles.
From my experience, too fast of a levelling makes powerful characters downplayed, by everyone. While too slow means that people will just not put the effort into it.
To answer your first question, Dalvyn. I would say yes, for CERTAIN classes.
The second question. Low level spells can be very useful, merely because, as Athon said, they take very little mana.
Third question. I am not sure, I think this would only happen if high level characters were not downplayed as they are. This is done by players and by builders. Because at the moment, level 50 is not something rare or even something that people would think matters. A lvl 50 character is nothing to a lvl 20 character in table top.
The fourth, this has been discussed before, and I liked it, but I was told that because some people do not have the same amount of time to play the game as others, that they should not be hindered in that respect.
Glim asks Gwain 'Can I be on the watch?!?'
Gwain raises an eyebrow.
Gwain seems to display a look of complete horror for a second...
Gwain raises an eyebrow.
Gwain seems to display a look of complete horror for a second...
I just have some questions :
If players play at times where there are often not very many other players, or players who involve in different types or RP etc, but it's their
only time to play, what do these players do? Are they just supposed to log off or idle alone? I honestly spend a lot of time on my druid and my evil idle, as they are less roleplayed mudwide. I mean, I could easily walk into Waterdeep with my druid or Ardeep with my evil, but I'd be contradicting my druid and not having fun rp with my evil. My evil became fairly powerful because I frankly had nothing better to do. Log an alt? (God knows I have enough!:P) Then I miss someone logging in to rp with that character and that's where I wanted to be. Do I make sense? I dunno, I don't feel well, just babbling. :P
Also, where do we cut the line of who is a twink or not? I remember my very first 50 character hit 50 at like 300-350 hours and I was made to feel horrible like I was a big horrible twink. That character now has 1154 hours and stinky skills. :P Are levels the real twinkity, or skill ups? For the most part my characters hit around 200-500 hours, then go on to have 1000+, but I'm pretty sure I am someone seen as a twink. :P Where do we decide this line? Is 200-500 hours not a lot of time? Between work and classes and children etc, that could be a lot of spanned out time.
By no means at all am I disagreeing with any of this. I think it's a good idea. 50 would become something more exciting frankly. Like a reward, people love rewards. :P Like Glim said, 50 should mean a lot more! :)
Danica
If players play at times where there are often not very many other players, or players who involve in different types or RP etc, but it's their
only time to play, what do these players do? Are they just supposed to log off or idle alone? I honestly spend a lot of time on my druid and my evil idle, as they are less roleplayed mudwide. I mean, I could easily walk into Waterdeep with my druid or Ardeep with my evil, but I'd be contradicting my druid and not having fun rp with my evil. My evil became fairly powerful because I frankly had nothing better to do. Log an alt? (God knows I have enough!:P) Then I miss someone logging in to rp with that character and that's where I wanted to be. Do I make sense? I dunno, I don't feel well, just babbling. :P
Also, where do we cut the line of who is a twink or not? I remember my very first 50 character hit 50 at like 300-350 hours and I was made to feel horrible like I was a big horrible twink. That character now has 1154 hours and stinky skills. :P Are levels the real twinkity, or skill ups? For the most part my characters hit around 200-500 hours, then go on to have 1000+, but I'm pretty sure I am someone seen as a twink. :P Where do we decide this line? Is 200-500 hours not a lot of time? Between work and classes and children etc, that could be a lot of spanned out time.
By no means at all am I disagreeing with any of this. I think it's a good idea. 50 would become something more exciting frankly. Like a reward, people love rewards. :P Like Glim said, 50 should mean a lot more! :)
Danica
Beshaba potatoes.
I have to agree with Isolrem here. True, I've been a little miffed to learn that players with characters a lot younger than mine have been a lot stronger through a higher devotion to grinding, but I don't think the level should have any bearing on the capacity to roleplay whatsoever. If someone wants to power-level while noone else is online because they want something to do, then let them - Provided they don't turn their nose up at roleplay when it comes, and provided they put effort into their character on a personable level, you'll not hear me complain.
The way the game system works, level 50 is a visible and clear goal for everyone. It's not difficult to reach as such, and it's assumed that everyone will reach it at whatever pace they deem suitable. For me though, FK has always been a roleplaying environment first and a game engine second. I have a habbit of segregating the two and paying little mind to how powerful I suspect they are based on how potent I know their equipment to be.
Perhaps I'm looking at this in the wrong way, but I don't personally believe it's a matter to worry about, let alone to warrant changing policies and code alike to fix the perceived problems.
The way the game system works, level 50 is a visible and clear goal for everyone. It's not difficult to reach as such, and it's assumed that everyone will reach it at whatever pace they deem suitable. For me though, FK has always been a roleplaying environment first and a game engine second. I have a habbit of segregating the two and paying little mind to how powerful I suspect they are based on how potent I know their equipment to be.
Perhaps I'm looking at this in the wrong way, but I don't personally believe it's a matter to worry about, let alone to warrant changing policies and code alike to fix the perceived problems.
"This is General Lath'lain Dy'nesir, of the Ebon Spur. Walking Murder surrounded by a thin veneer of civility."
-Miriel
-Miriel
-
Dalvyn
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 4708
- Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:26 pm
- Location: House of Wonder, Waterdeep
Well, to offer a builder's point of view and answer Lathlain's post, it has problematic consequences. Mobs that would be challenging to an average roleplayer's character would be too easy for one who spent all his time training. And mobs that would be challenging for a twinked character would be deadly for the average character.
And this is not only true for "fixed" areas, but also for mobs created for imm-run roleplays. So, yes, it has consequences that cannot just be neglected.
Especially when those twinked players come and whine when they are not taken along in any imm-run roleplays and start claiming that they have been set aside because there is favouritism or start whining because they have been punished for overcoming "on their own" challenges that were set up for a group (because the group was taking too much time to form up and they decided to rush things to show off or just prevent the members of the group from "winning the day").
And this is not only true for "fixed" areas, but also for mobs created for imm-run roleplays. So, yes, it has consequences that cannot just be neglected.
Especially when those twinked players come and whine when they are not taken along in any imm-run roleplays and start claiming that they have been set aside because there is favouritism or start whining because they have been punished for overcoming "on their own" challenges that were set up for a group (because the group was taking too much time to form up and they decided to rush things to show off or just prevent the members of the group from "winning the day").
In that light then, it's more understandable.
A timer seems to be the best method of keeping the levels down. I certainly don't think a kismet cost in any shape or form is the way to do it. I know people who have been put off entirely by the prospect of having to amass 200 playing hours with a character they don't like in order to make one that they do, and having to drain their hard-earned kismet in order to level up the said character would be the final killer.
Edit: This post made more sense when I first posted it as I'd put an idea to increase level-training costs at the end - But then I realised that it was idiotic and pointless, so I've scrapped it
A timer seems to be the best method of keeping the levels down. I certainly don't think a kismet cost in any shape or form is the way to do it. I know people who have been put off entirely by the prospect of having to amass 200 playing hours with a character they don't like in order to make one that they do, and having to drain their hard-earned kismet in order to level up the said character would be the final killer.
Edit: This post made more sense when I first posted it as I'd put an idea to increase level-training costs at the end - But then I realised that it was idiotic and pointless, so I've scrapped it
"This is General Lath'lain Dy'nesir, of the Ebon Spur. Walking Murder surrounded by a thin veneer of civility."
-Miriel
-Miriel
I like the idea of a leveling time scale. So twinkers aren't really twinkers anymore and so on. And on one of my characters I actually was a little bit of a twink on him... And when he reached a high level, his skills were not nearly as good as others who took their time leveling up, not just powering through it.
And when he reached a high level, his skills were not nearly as good as others who took their time leveling up, not just powering through it.