Apprenticeship

Cret · Post by **Cret** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:19 am

With the new spell system. I would like to introduce a required apprentice ship for all wizards. This would introduce more rp into the magic system and stop mages from twinking so easily.

Anyone give thoughts and concearns?

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:35 am

Personally, I'm not for forced apprenticeship for wizards. I just think there are a LOT more new wizards then there are old wizards. I also don't think we have the playerbase to support such a largely chosen class to advance in their roleplay based on another persons log in time. If it were a less played class I'd probably be for not against. I atleast make sense to myself, lol.

I think a LOT of people do choose to roleplay being apprentices without being forced. I like it as that choice.

Danica

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:06 am

I must admit that I like how it works for rangers now, with a council of respected rangers that need to authorize any new warrior to become a ranger. Not only does it increase the feeling of guild, but it also screen out twinks and help teach new players about roleplaying and other perks of the mud.

So, anything similar would be good in my opinion. Apprenticeship could work, as long as we can set up some sort of council for each guild, with those who would be authorized to let new wizard join a guild. People who roleplay their wizards well would be rewarded by a position in this kind of council. And that could ensure that the wizards who take apprentices would be good examples for the new players.

Yet, player base might be a problem for that to work correctly.

Rhiel · Post by **Rhiel** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:45 pm

I agree with Dalvyn and Danica 100%. Cret was on to something, and they pulled out wonderful extrapolations. A Council of Wizards, maybe? I've always imagined something like that, and there were even a few RP's about it which unfortunately never got off the ground. I think it would make new wizards feel more secure in their craft, and more...hmm...readily able to access resources?

That would also lead into some very interesting RP situations, were this idea applied to ALL classes (i.e. guild intrigues/ guildwars/ guild politics, struggles within the guilds for supremacy, etc)

A question though. Would something like that require any codebase? And if so, would that be a difficult thing to do? If not, can a "Consilium Magorum" be established purely on RP?

Theillik · Post by **Theillik** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:28 pm

I think having apprentices would be an interesting idea. I just think that it should not be forced. It's already taking me forever to learn spells and get past level 13... And I believe that most wizards would have learned on their own, years of study and experimentation, but not necessarily under a master. Perhaps with some of the specialization school this might be a good idea, as to focus in one area (gaining those spells) would need be taught. But other than that, I do not think wizards would have to have an apprentice, arcane is in you or it ain't.

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:05 pm

I have an idea.

In my experience, wizards who take on apprentices (myself included) tend to be those who can brew and sell potions, making a lot of money for it (quite legitimately, I might add - keep those lowly fighters in poverty for the sake of the educated few!

). This is in a sense, a "rite of passage" for wizards. Once you gain a high income, the player inside your character automatically wants to give other struggling wizards a helping hand. Well, that's what I did. I think having a "master" (or "mistress") helps young wizards IMMENSELY. I know my long-term wizard might be struggling still around L20 if it hadn't been for my "master".

The benefits to apprentice/master RP are countless. You get OOC benefits, with experienced wizards helping inexperienced ones. You get RP opportunities with lessons. ICly, you get (from apprentice POV) the chance to be given spells and money. The relationship developed also enables better RP - my wizard character knows -that- all too well, she fell in love with her master!

So, what am I saying?

Well, one major concern of mine: the code updates, and its effect on the brewing industry. Will fighters pay as much for shorter-duration potions? Hmm... I don't know. That means that income has been cut down immensely for those wizards who no longer really adventure in the same way as fighters. This is not a moan, it is just an observation.

So, we have two points:

Wizards taking on apprentices is ACCEPTED AS HIGHLY BENEFICIAL but I would also claim it is HIGHLY COSTLY. With brewing made less economically beneficial (possibly, only time will tell), I would feel wizards must have some monetray aid for their apprentices.

Which leads me (finally) to this post!

Instead of making apprenticeship compulsory (it would be nice, to have paladin-esque training times, to make sure that EVERY full wizard out there RPs correctly, but it is not practical), why not seize on the idea of this "Wizard Council"?

What about a Wizard Council that is ICly based in Waterdeep. (Maybe the Keep can have a separate one). As wizards tend to be, both these Councils would be extremely (ICly) powerful, maybe having holdings in trading companies, a share of profits from many adventuring concerns, shipping, etc...

And where would a bunch of magic-crazed, super-intelligent, near-loonies invest their money? In masters for apprentices!

In this rather nifty move, we would have wizards gaining an income based on their apprentice. My thought would be this:

Yearly (RL Month) Income: 50 platinum...

10 Platinum for the expenses of the master
40 Platinum for the training of the apprentice

This might seem a LOT of money every month... but let's add up the costs? For the mid-level spells, it is often 1 platinum per every train + components. So, in one RL month, a master would request an apprentice to (realistically) learn five spells. Five times (at least five) = 25. Component costs, = (at least) 20. VERY rough costs, but it is to illustrate the (Good God!) high cost of running a wizard, and of a master supporting an apprentice.

But, you might ask, what is to stop a master from taking this money for himself? The Wizard Council! And this brings RP! What would the Wizard Council do with an unscrupulous master? Expel him from whatever spheres they have influence in.

We could even tie the apprenticeship into some combination of level/number of spells known. So, by the time a wizard reaches level 30 and knows most 1-3 levels spells, he has graduated to a journeyman rank. At this point, they would be declared semi-independent and their "grants" would decrease:

Income for Master: 10 platinum (a steady wage from the Council)
Income for Journeyman: 20 platinum

And when a wizard reaches 40? Well, then he is a fully fledged wizard.

I know there's a lot here, but I suddenly got this idea, and me being my usual passionate self, I had to type it all out.

I really think that this would enable a higher quality of wizard RP, would give newbie wizards a lot of much-needed support, and would fill a vacuum left in the moneypouches of the various "masters" out there who might find their income eaten up by the code update.

EDIT: The money given by the Wizard's Council would be imm-generated, as well, so that the members of that council would not have to fork out their own hard-won cash. This arrangement is actually similar to the unions we have over in Britain, in that a union of workers will help each other out. Of course, over here, we have to pay for membership of a union... so we COULD implement that. A platinum piece per RL month in return for representation by the Council? Sounds like a nice (but possibly too modern) idea.

Kilak · Post by **Kilak** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:08 pm

This is one of those sticky subjects that has lots of potential, but lots of pitfalls too. If you look closely at the different settings, most have wizards going through some sort of apprenticeship.

Drow wizards go to Sorcere in Menzoberranzan (Forgotten Realms)
Wizards go to the Towers of High Sorcery for training (Dragonlance)
Wizards have to go to training with other mages (Sword of Truth series of books)

This is good for tabletop games, as it is something that can be roleplayed out, but it becomes harder for a MUD as the mob/mobs that would run the school don't have the capacity to do as much as a GM/DM. Apprenticing to another player has the pitfalls of not being on at the same times, and potentially creating player strife (forcing apprentices to get you stuff. I know that apprentices have to do that, but when it is player doing to a player, it could cause strife)

Yes, I think that it would be good, that if you want to play an invoker, to seek out other invokers for guidance, but I don't think an apprentice system would work out the best in a MUD.

Please let me know if I made any sense. I'm still new to MUDs and how they work.

Theillik · Post by **Theillik** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:23 pm

I do agree that apprenticeship could add a lot to the game. I just want to reiterate my point, that I do not believe wizards should be *forced* to apprentice.

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:16 pm

As a long time player of wizards, I've been able to exprerience the RP of apprenticing from both sides (apprentice and master). Frankly, I think it is an excellent oportunity for RP.

I also like the the implementation of the Council of Rangers. The new rangers I see now are far more knowlegable than the new ones I saw before the council came about. It adds greatly to RP when a ranger can explain things or know what to do in a sticky situation rather than have to shrug it off as "Well, I don't know. You should talk to a druid." In my experience, that pretty much kills a potential RP right there. I think this system would also work to the advantage of wizards.

Also, (and not to point fingers) I've seen some wizards doing some rather unintelligent things just because they know a spell and want to show off, like using disintegrate to win a spar quickly and look all-powerful. I think the code has been updated to where this particular case would probably result in death (which would actually end up being a pretty good RP itself), but nontheless, ICly wouldn't make sense. The apprenticing would help avoid bad, twinking RP and promote good ICly acceptable RP. Having a council would also create someone/thing that wizards would have to answer to for their mistakes. I've run into wizards doing things that they shouldn't be and have tried to correct them but can't really send them to someone for lessons and such because there isn't anyone. With such a council, older players would be able to notify the council of other wizards doing things they obviously shouldn't, as well as sending young wizards there for aid and such.

Leythra brought up a good point with the finantial aspect. I would point out the apprentice side of things. As any player of a young wizard knows, money is VERY hard to get in the early levels. Having a master provide the coin for training is a great way for a young wizard to gain the base to become powerful enough to gain money on their own.

Also, I've seen (from personal experience) that usually only high level wizards are called into RP for help. This, in my opinion and experience, all but eliminates the oportunities for good RP for young wizards. Were they to apprentice, their master could bring them along when he is called to help, thus allowing the younger wizard to participate in many more RPs.

On an OOC note, it would help link wizards together more and help get a better feel for how things are working with the new system and what may need to be changed (spells too powerful or too weak, how abused a spell might be, locating associated bug, etc.) I know a lot of the spells do not have trainers in with the reason being what I just stated. I know a lot of players are anxious to see those trainers put in as soon as possible and I think that this process can be sped up by implementing an IC council that sees a lot more of what goes on and can compare notes and such. Another point to look at is that this would require little, if any coding. Just a big Rp to get it started.

As a final note, while I think that required apprenticeship is an excellent idea, if a council of wizards is implemented, I think most young wizards would take advantage of it whether it is mandetory or not.

All in all, Cret, I like your idea.

Gregal · Post by **Gregal** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:19 pm

Personally I don't really play wizards, but I feel in order to have a wizard that truly understands rp, and such he needs the rp to go through. Plus the IC help. But I can see the point a wizard could be on his own and research spells....Think of the question which came first the Chicken or the Egg...then ask what came first the Wizard or the Apprentice...and who did that apprentice, apprentice under. I would like to say that having a forced apprenticeship would make those wizards really work to get in a guild...but I also believe there should be a way a /HARD/ way for them to join a guild around the councils...perhaps months of rp or something. But I would want it to be really hard and possibly deadly or a possibly failure and never able to try to join that guild again. That would make people either risk it, or go into apprenticeship and pay their time.

Amalia · Post by **Amalia** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:27 pm

I'm getting on the +Wizards council, -required apprenticeship boat. While it's excellent for a young wizard to have a mentor, and most people would probably choose to, it's also possible for a wizard to learn his art on his own if he's bound and determined to do so. From what I'm hearing from wizard players, doing it alone is extremely difficult, and as such it seems to me a very legitimate RP option for those who wish to play someone who's proud to a fault or for some other reason objects to seeking a master.

As for twinking or poor RP and wizardry: the presence of a wizard's council could still deal with that even from unapprenticed wizards-- it could be something like a toned-down version of the Dragonlance mages, a coalition of some of the most powerful wizards in the land watching for abuse of magic and quickly putting an end to such crimes by whatever means necessary.

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:38 pm

Actually, I kind of like Gregal's idea of going around it. Yes, I do agree that it is possible for a wizard to teach himself if he is determined. I think that makeing it hard to go around is also a good idea and also presents a lot of RP oportunities. However, I think it would be best that new players go through the apprenticing, perhaps only allowing those with a minimum number of total acquired kismet to do this. My reasoning behind this is the same for what I stated as being the problem with newrangers before the council was created: they just didn't really know all that much. So, I would say maybe not make the apprenticing required, but if one decides not to go that route that a lot of RP be required.

Theillik · Post by **Theillik** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:53 am

I really love the idea of apprenticing to wizards and having a wizard council. They're really awesome ideas! I know they would totally (yes, I just used totally) add some great rp and character development!

If only wizards could not be forced into an apprenticeship or be under a council. Wizards who choose not to would of course not have the same spell choice, but it would widen the rp. Just my thoughts.

Andreas · Post by **Andreas** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:23 am

The major pros I see to this suggestion is that there will be greater roleplay generated for wizards, more control over who becomes a wizard and how they use their abilities and more guidance for new wizard players in tackling a very difficult class.

I don't see very many cons to these ideas but I still wouldn't want to see "forced" apprenticeship. I've seen this applied elseMU* and it was a dismal failure. The PC masters wound up swamped with apprentices and there were also a lot of problems with oppositional faiths/alignments. In the long run, the "forced" apprenticeship system did more harm than good.

A Mage Council might work as long as it remained a neutral body with fair representation from all faiths and alignments. The Council could meet any new mage hopefuls, teach them about the responsibilities of using magic and guide them through their lessons. Some higher level spells might need to be removed from trainers and become quest dependent, triggered with a token given by the Council or something similar.

Lorion · Post by **Lorion** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:11 pm

As player of a wizard I do think the idea of an apprenticeship is a great idea, for those who like it. In my opinion it would be best if a wizard council, should there be one, tries to actively seek out young wizards and convince them to take an apprenticeship. There should be IC advantages like, as Lerytha said, maybe some kind of sponsoring, however noone should be forced to become an apprentice. I do not think there should be disadvantages to not starting an apprenticeship either, as it was said before, wizard's life is hard enough as it is, i would rather try to find advantages if you start an apprenticeship, to make these attractive especially for newer players.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:42 pm

If apprenticeships are not required, I would advocate that there be some downside to not having a mentor. For instance, spells cannot be cast in Silverymoon unless certain conditions are met (I won't say what they are, it's IC). I would favor adding a condition that requires a mage to be an apprentice as well. This way, the master can also be held responsible for any misuse of magic in that city, and the mage who chooses not to have a master experiences a downside to that choice. This is one example off the top of my head, I'm sure there can be others. Put bluntly, IF such a system is put in place and it is not required to join, there should be rewards for being an apprentice and the road should be more difficult for those who choose to go it alone.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:44 pm

Maybe have the spell components more expensive... or have the spells cost more money.

Oh... you are so in so's apprent.... here... i'll give you a discount

or something like that

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:01 pm

Well, as a shameless plug for my idea earlier in this post, I'd say that with my idea, if you have an apprentice, (or are an apprentice) you receive definite rewards through the "grants" from the (at present non-existent) Council.

If you are not apprenticed, you miss out on those grants, and therefore will find it harder to progress.

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:05 pm

What ever happened to roleplaying something for simply the roleplay?

I think being on a wizards council is a big deal and reward enough in itself. Being someone considered skilled enough to HAVE an apprentice is a pretty big deal, too. Being able to say "I am Yourmom of the Wizards Council." is a big reward too.

I don't think it's fair for people who decide to apprentice to get beneifits others do not. There are many RL reasons someone could choose not to apprentice and it's not fair they should be kicked down a notch or punished because of that. No matter what all wizards go through SOW then through another thing for their guild. People do a lot of work to become a wizard of any type, whether or not they apprentice to someone.

Don't mean to be snatchy. Just feeling adament today. :P <3

Danica

Isolrem · Post by **Isolrem** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:15 pm

I agree with not making this mandatory. Too much emphasis may be put on weeding out the twinks. If apprenticeship was not compulsory, it would be a lot more supported (in fact I hardly see anyone objecting), and not inconveniencing, whilst retaining all of its benefit except for the one that "twinks cant abuse the game anymore" - in my opinion the least important of the causes.

Now, establishing that it would not be compsulory, if the system was good (e.g. no long delays) then there needs not be any huge benefits in being apprenticed - being a self-taught wizard can also be very interesting. As was before pointed out, a 50 platinum cost of joining the Council of Wizards' sponsor would be quite worth it for the easier access to trainers, good training areas, cheaper components and some quests w/rewards.

PC apprenticeship can still be condone in RP - I've seen it a lot, and there seems to not be any of problems with it. But of course they could also be mid-high ranking members of the Council, as well as take advantage of the council to enhance their lessons.

Apprenticeship

Apprenticeship

Hmmm

RE: Apprenticeship & Wizard's Council