Apprenticeship
-
Rhiel
- Sword Apprentice
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2004 9:28 am
- Location: Zhentil Keep - House of Lies
- Contact:
I also do not agree with mandatory apprenticeships. Nor to I think it necessary to be penalized for NOT being a member of the council.
I'll tell you why. First, obligatory membership (as Danica pointed out) diminishes the prestige of becoming a member of this esteemed organization. When I first read Cret's post, I had something like the Harper's or Zhentarim in mind. Nothing wrong with NOT being a part, but there are definitely rewards, and not to mention the IC esteem of being part of such an organization.
I also agree that perhaps, as Lerytha stated, a system where apprentices/masters within the guild would be given some boons. Take the Magocracy of Thay, for example. There, if you are a member of the Red Wizards, your life becomes MUCH easier. Although Thay is not in FK, the idea remains the same. If you are a member of a council, the resources and strength of unity of such a grouping of like-minded individuals will produce results in and of itself. Imm supplied pensions may not even be required. As they say, there is strength in unity. But...only time would tell if that be true or no.
I don't think penalties would be necessary for a number of reasons. First, it would discourage people from choosing that class. For example, if I wished to have a wizard who wanted to RP as a "Wizardly Outcast or Renegade of the Oppressive Guild," it would be well for him NOT to join the Council, or even *oppose* its ideals. That being said, I would think twice about making such a wizard if I thought that my plans would be smashed before they were even begun, simply because "if you're not of the Council, then you should suffer the consequences." In my opinion, that is not realistic. Take some of your older mages, for example. Ondil was never member of a Council, and look at the power he obtained. Nor was Elminster (though he had a distinct advantage
) Or what about a wizard who wished to follow a more secluded life? (i.e. A woodland wizard of Mielikki) It is not in their RP's best interest to associate with a secular crowd such as a council, rather shun the trappings of society, lest in dire circumstances (take the Druids in the Cleric Quintet for example, the same could be said of mages) That being said, it is perhaps unfair that they be penalized for pursuing an interesting and unique RP.
This is all my opinion of course. I think the ideas presented here are worth thinking about, good job! Keep 'em comin'.
I'll tell you why. First, obligatory membership (as Danica pointed out) diminishes the prestige of becoming a member of this esteemed organization. When I first read Cret's post, I had something like the Harper's or Zhentarim in mind. Nothing wrong with NOT being a part, but there are definitely rewards, and not to mention the IC esteem of being part of such an organization.
I also agree that perhaps, as Lerytha stated, a system where apprentices/masters within the guild would be given some boons. Take the Magocracy of Thay, for example. There, if you are a member of the Red Wizards, your life becomes MUCH easier. Although Thay is not in FK, the idea remains the same. If you are a member of a council, the resources and strength of unity of such a grouping of like-minded individuals will produce results in and of itself. Imm supplied pensions may not even be required. As they say, there is strength in unity. But...only time would tell if that be true or no.
I don't think penalties would be necessary for a number of reasons. First, it would discourage people from choosing that class. For example, if I wished to have a wizard who wanted to RP as a "Wizardly Outcast or Renegade of the Oppressive Guild," it would be well for him NOT to join the Council, or even *oppose* its ideals. That being said, I would think twice about making such a wizard if I thought that my plans would be smashed before they were even begun, simply because "if you're not of the Council, then you should suffer the consequences." In my opinion, that is not realistic. Take some of your older mages, for example. Ondil was never member of a Council, and look at the power he obtained. Nor was Elminster (though he had a distinct advantage
) Or what about a wizard who wished to follow a more secluded life? (i.e. A woodland wizard of Mielikki) It is not in their RP's best interest to associate with a secular crowd such as a council, rather shun the trappings of society, lest in dire circumstances (take the Druids in the Cleric Quintet for example, the same could be said of mages) That being said, it is perhaps unfair that they be penalized for pursuing an interesting and unique RP. This is all my opinion of course. I think the ideas presented here are worth thinking about, good job! Keep 'em comin'.
Raona wrote:
Balek wrote:Bug testing follow-up: I just took a look at a dead shield dwarf, and it showed up as made from mithril.
This is not a bug. Shield dwarves are actually made of mithril.
Hmm...
It's not often I say this, but I stand corrected. Although I quite like the idea of incentives for apprenticeship, I do realise (now) that there will always be RL issues, and that it might be irresponsible and harsh to make life more difficult for those who cannot meet up with a "master" in certain times due to troublesome families, odd timezones, etc.
So, I hereby retract the idea of incentives, but do condone an effort to give master/apprentice relationships some... what's the word... legitimacy. If that makes sense?
It's not often I say this, but I stand corrected.
Although I quite like the idea of incentives for apprenticeship, I do realise (now) that there will always be RL issues, and that it might be irresponsible and harsh to make life more difficult for those who cannot meet up with a "master" in certain times due to troublesome families, odd timezones, etc.So, I hereby retract the idea of incentives, but do condone an effort to give master/apprentice relationships some... what's the word... legitimacy. If that makes sense?
If you have knowledge, let others light their candles with it.
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
In regards to all this apprenticing, I would like to point out that first off, the way I would see such a council would be simply a group of knowlegable wizards representing the various schools. It would be more of a resource for young wizards to learn from and such. Not all wizards would be required to become part of said council, just the select few that are appointed to it. The younger wizards would simply use it to better themselves.
Second, I don't think wizards should be forced to apprentice, because as I said earlier, it is possible for one to teach themselves. However, I'm sure everyone would agree that becoming an apprentice would make learning things MUCH easier as they can learn from one who has experience. This doesn't rule out the posibility of making a renegade wizard totally oposed to the council, just makes it a little more difficult like it would be anyway. Difficulties in making such a character do not mean it is a discuraging prospect. Paladins, for example, require a LOT of time and RP to create. I would think the same would apply to wizards deciding to teach themselves. It would be hard, but in the end they could say something like "Who needs the council to learn from. I taught myself and look where I am." This, from my perspective, would make the character look very powerful, intelligent, and strong willed. So, again, with overcomming a challenge comes the presitge of doing so. Really what I'm getting at is not to make going it alone more difficult, but to make apprenticing easier.
Third and finally, I do agree that apprenticing can have some problems in that the master may not be on every time the apprentice is. This is going to happen despite anything you do because as pointed out, players do have lives. However, it can be minimised by selecting characters for the council that are both qualified AND log fairly regularly. Also, if there were to be representatives from all the schools, the apprentice could select a master from their respective school, but should their master not be logged when they wish to learn, they could always go get a lesson or two from a master of another school so as to expand their knowlege of other schools.
Again, just my thoughts. Look forward to hearing others opinions.
Second, I don't think wizards should be forced to apprentice, because as I said earlier, it is possible for one to teach themselves. However, I'm sure everyone would agree that becoming an apprentice would make learning things MUCH easier as they can learn from one who has experience. This doesn't rule out the posibility of making a renegade wizard totally oposed to the council, just makes it a little more difficult like it would be anyway. Difficulties in making such a character do not mean it is a discuraging prospect. Paladins, for example, require a LOT of time and RP to create. I would think the same would apply to wizards deciding to teach themselves. It would be hard, but in the end they could say something like "Who needs the council to learn from. I taught myself and look where I am." This, from my perspective, would make the character look very powerful, intelligent, and strong willed. So, again, with overcomming a challenge comes the presitge of doing so. Really what I'm getting at is not to make going it alone more difficult, but to make apprenticing easier.
Third and finally, I do agree that apprenticing can have some problems in that the master may not be on every time the apprentice is. This is going to happen despite anything you do because as pointed out, players do have lives. However, it can be minimised by selecting characters for the council that are both qualified AND log fairly regularly. Also, if there were to be representatives from all the schools, the apprentice could select a master from their respective school, but should their master not be logged when they wish to learn, they could always go get a lesson or two from a master of another school so as to expand their knowlege of other schools.
Again, just my thoughts. Look forward to hearing others opinions.
I'd love to see a Dragonlance system with three orders of Magic consisting of a good order, a neutral order and an evil order, that meet yearly or semi yearly in a conclave to discuss problems and issues, they can regulate magic, test apprentices and discuss spellcraft. Plus they can monitor dangerous individuals and abusers of the magic art and mayhaps be able to deal out punishments for magic related crimes.
The order can have a council of three where they are lead by three of the most powerful of each order.
The order can have a council of three where they are lead by three of the most powerful of each order.
Justice is not neccesarily honourable, it is a tolerable business, in essence you tolerate honour until it impedes justice, then you do what is right.
Spelling is not necessarily correct
Spelling is not necessarily correct
-
Amalia
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 331
- Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:51 pm
- Location: Ardeep Forest
- Contact:
I think Dragonlance-esque conclave would be terribly cool as well, if it would be workable with all or mostly all PCs-- though renegade wizards (those not given the stamp of approval by the Conclave) would likely have to be special-RP, since they're not supposed to occur more than once in a blue moon, and keeping one alive for any length of time is supposed to be almost impossible.
Dear Enemy: May the Lord hate you and all your kind, may you be turned orange in hue, and may your head fall off at an awkward moment.
How is this going to affect wizards that are already high level, and have been around for few years? Looks to me like they are just left out in the cold, especially if they don't apprentice, or don't wish to become a teacher/master/whatever. This just assumes that all wizards are young and in need of assistance, and that the rest are just going to be forced to have to have an apprentice or fall by the way side......just a thought
-
Theillik
I agree with Gwain. I think a council of mages from all alignments meeting to discuss the use of the weave and magic in general would be very good for RP. And it would also act as a means of mages regulating the use of magic. Even evil spell casters have in interest in preserving the weave and regulating who can use it.
Duranamir
Duranamir
I think Gwain has a good idea so that evils can benefit from it as well. I think goods are given a lot of benefits already and that evils, as far as magic, should be given the same oportunity.
Now as for older characters, the council would be a resource, so to speak (think I used that word already, but whatever). Older, high level wizards wouldn't need to apprentice, and if they didn't want to become a master or what have you, could still offer their knowlege to the council and gain knowlege from them as well. Plus, as I said in an earlier post, I think it has some excellent OOC benefits to it as well regarding the new effectivness of the new spell system.
Now as for older characters, the council would be a resource, so to speak (think I used that word already, but whatever). Older, high level wizards wouldn't need to apprentice, and if they didn't want to become a master or what have you, could still offer their knowlege to the council and gain knowlege from them as well. Plus, as I said in an earlier post, I think it has some excellent OOC benefits to it as well regarding the new effectivness of the new spell system.
Following idea may be complicated. If you need any clarification, just ask and I’ll try and explain my points better.
Okay: well, how about an idea for “Wizard’s Councils” that utilises the heroes already in the game?
The Wizard’s Councils would take the form of three separate Councils, with a certain hierarchy (and hear me out, it’s unheard of in a Forgotten Realms setting, but… well, it might make for interesting RP):
1: The Supreme Council of Wizardry – The uppermost Council passes laws and rulings that will affect all wizards. Those found to be breaking these rules will be severely punished. (NB: membership not compulsory, and the Councils have no authority over any wizard who is not a member – though some members might try to ensure that any spellcaster is a member – all down to individual RP) It might meet every two RL months.
Membership – only three wizards: one evil, one good, and one neutral. Note: any member must be a guild leader.
How are members chosen? – All the “heroes” (leaders) of the wizarding guilds gather in one great meeting. If there is only one wizard present of a certain alignment, he/she will instantly become a Supreme Councillor. If there is more than one wizard of a certain alignment, he/she will have to succeed in tasks to qualify. For example, if this Supreme Council was introduced, there would be the grand meeting. All the heroes of the guilds would be invited. So, Bob, the good Head Invoker and Miriam the good Head Transmuter, alongside Lucy, the evil Head Enchanter and Geoff, the evil Head Necromancer, gather in the meeting, with Thomasina the neutral Conjurer. In this example, Thomasina would immediately be named Supreme Councillor for the Neutral (or some title like that). The others would have to duel/compete.
Rule-making – this is almost an empty task, as it would be very rare that a council of three opposing alignments would ever agree – but it does add power and gravity to those decisions they do make. E.g, they might order that every wizard must charge between 5-15 platinum. Any wizard who is a member of the Wizard’s Councils must adhere to this.
2. The Three Councils – governs all wizards of a certain alignment, guiding them in their studies – they would set courses of study for masters to teach their apprentices depending on their alignment, and would offer support to new wizards. They are also the ‘governance’ of wizardry, in that any area not already ‘legislated’ by the Supreme Council, would be left to the Councils of Alignment. E.g, a Good Council, Evil Council, Neutral Council. It might meet every RL month (because Goods can more often agree, as can Neutrals and Evils, with each other)
Membership – On each Council, there would be eight seats, for each guild. Any guild leaders who ‘failed’ to gain a place on the Supreme Council automatically take position in the correct Council for their alignment. If no guild leaders remain with the correct alignment for that Council, the next most powerful/intelligent wizard in that guild takes a seat on the Council. E.g, After the Supreme Council has been chosen, Bob (Good Invoker) remains, as does Lucy (Evil Enchanter). So, Bob will take the “Invoker’s Seat” on the Good Council. Lucy will take the “Enchanter’s Seat” on the Evil Council. On the Good Council, you would have the next most powerful enchanter, after Lucy (judged through a guild event, maybe?)
Rule-making – The Supreme Council has not (yet) passed any ruling on the correct use of power (nor would they ever). So, the Good Council might decide to say that power should only be used to help; Evil Council might say that power should be used to advance oneself; a Neutral Council might rule that it is up solely to the individual.
Wizard’s Senate – the conglomeration of every wizard who purports to a membership of the Council. This would meet every (RL year?) to discuss matters they find of interest, to discuss rulings and such like.
Membership – numbers, unknown. Any wizard may join, provided he/she is judged as a full wizard. Membership brings the benefits of kinship with all wizards. Not joining brings the benefits of flexibility and freedom.
Rule-making – members can, at every meeting, raise objections to the laws, and they will be noted, etc (basically, a consultation time for all wizards)
So, with the above idea, we would have an organised system for wizards. We would have a Good Council overseeing their own apprenticeships, as well as the Evil and Neutral having control over their own apprenticeships. Yes, it seems like a LOT of (unnecessary?) organisation, but… let’s consider the advantages:
1. Improved opportunities for in-guild RP: the Evil Enchantress on the Evil Council is resentful of the Good Enchantress on the Supreme Council, and organises a plot to kill her, thereby instigating a contest to decide who will be the next leader? The Guild itself is able to RP pushing its leader to improve its standing within the wizarding community – I could imagine enchanters telling their representatives on each of the three Councils of Alignment, to push for rules saying only enchanters may enchant – never going to happen, but it is still good RP.
2. Improved opportunities for inter-guild RP: The Transmuters have never held a seat on the Supreme Council – but those blasted Invokers have had one since its institution! Relations between the two guilds are close to breaking point… most of Faerun is nervous that one wrong footstep might have transmuters battling invokers very, very soon.
3. Improved opportunities for wizardly respect: Imagine being able to introduce yourself as “Supreme Councillor” or “Councillor”. It also opens up positions of authority and influence, not only to ‘guild leaders’ but also to those quite high in power within each guild, but who have not yet entered a Mage Fair (or however guild leaders are chosen).
4. Any other ideas? I know my brain is brimming with advantages, but I can’t seem to get them out.
What might be needed? – well, maybe an area in each respective city, for the Alignment Council. A building in the sewers of Zhentil Keep for the Evil Council (linked to Menzo through a Gate, and unable to be left, which allows drow involvement without breaking the surface-disallowing rule in the MUD). A tower in Westgate for neutral, maybe? And a tower in Waterdeep for the good? Maybe a rotating system where the Supreme Council will meet at the Good Tower one year, and the Evil Sewer-place-thing the next? Once I have finished school, I am willing to volunteer for building some of these.
Some of you might be thinking: Oh, Good God have mercy on us… he’s saying all this, and the forum post was about apprenticeship! But, I think that apprenticeship, and the issues around it, are important matters that concern all wizard RPers. I take my wizard RP seriously, because its fun(er) that way. Yes, it’s a game, but it’s also fun to RP knowing that other wizard RPers are going to be doing the same. If that makes sense. So, in order to try and implement a way that apprenticeship is encouraged within the game, I have suggested this…
Thinking on, it might have been a complete waste of 30 mins, but then again, maybe something in this great big mass of seething ideas, will inspire someone to do something different?
If you’re still reading… thank you.
Okay: well, how about an idea for “Wizard’s Councils” that utilises the heroes already in the game?
The Wizard’s Councils would take the form of three separate Councils, with a certain hierarchy (and hear me out, it’s unheard of in a Forgotten Realms setting, but… well, it might make for interesting RP):
1: The Supreme Council of Wizardry – The uppermost Council passes laws and rulings that will affect all wizards. Those found to be breaking these rules will be severely punished. (NB: membership not compulsory, and the Councils have no authority over any wizard who is not a member – though some members might try to ensure that any spellcaster is a member – all down to individual RP) It might meet every two RL months.
Membership – only three wizards: one evil, one good, and one neutral. Note: any member must be a guild leader.
How are members chosen? – All the “heroes” (leaders) of the wizarding guilds gather in one great meeting. If there is only one wizard present of a certain alignment, he/she will instantly become a Supreme Councillor. If there is more than one wizard of a certain alignment, he/she will have to succeed in tasks to qualify. For example, if this Supreme Council was introduced, there would be the grand meeting. All the heroes of the guilds would be invited. So, Bob, the good Head Invoker and Miriam the good Head Transmuter, alongside Lucy, the evil Head Enchanter and Geoff, the evil Head Necromancer, gather in the meeting, with Thomasina the neutral Conjurer. In this example, Thomasina would immediately be named Supreme Councillor for the Neutral (or some title like that). The others would have to duel/compete.
Rule-making – this is almost an empty task, as it would be very rare that a council of three opposing alignments would ever agree – but it does add power and gravity to those decisions they do make. E.g, they might order that every wizard must charge between 5-15 platinum. Any wizard who is a member of the Wizard’s Councils must adhere to this.
2. The Three Councils – governs all wizards of a certain alignment, guiding them in their studies – they would set courses of study for masters to teach their apprentices depending on their alignment, and would offer support to new wizards. They are also the ‘governance’ of wizardry, in that any area not already ‘legislated’ by the Supreme Council, would be left to the Councils of Alignment. E.g, a Good Council, Evil Council, Neutral Council. It might meet every RL month (because Goods can more often agree, as can Neutrals and Evils, with each other)
Membership – On each Council, there would be eight seats, for each guild. Any guild leaders who ‘failed’ to gain a place on the Supreme Council automatically take position in the correct Council for their alignment. If no guild leaders remain with the correct alignment for that Council, the next most powerful/intelligent wizard in that guild takes a seat on the Council. E.g, After the Supreme Council has been chosen, Bob (Good Invoker) remains, as does Lucy (Evil Enchanter). So, Bob will take the “Invoker’s Seat” on the Good Council. Lucy will take the “Enchanter’s Seat” on the Evil Council. On the Good Council, you would have the next most powerful enchanter, after Lucy (judged through a guild event, maybe?)
Rule-making – The Supreme Council has not (yet) passed any ruling on the correct use of power (nor would they ever). So, the Good Council might decide to say that power should only be used to help; Evil Council might say that power should be used to advance oneself; a Neutral Council might rule that it is up solely to the individual.
Wizard’s Senate – the conglomeration of every wizard who purports to a membership of the Council. This would meet every (RL year?) to discuss matters they find of interest, to discuss rulings and such like.
Membership – numbers, unknown. Any wizard may join, provided he/she is judged as a full wizard. Membership brings the benefits of kinship with all wizards. Not joining brings the benefits of flexibility and freedom.
Rule-making – members can, at every meeting, raise objections to the laws, and they will be noted, etc (basically, a consultation time for all wizards)
So, with the above idea, we would have an organised system for wizards. We would have a Good Council overseeing their own apprenticeships, as well as the Evil and Neutral having control over their own apprenticeships. Yes, it seems like a LOT of (unnecessary?) organisation, but… let’s consider the advantages:
1. Improved opportunities for in-guild RP: the Evil Enchantress on the Evil Council is resentful of the Good Enchantress on the Supreme Council, and organises a plot to kill her, thereby instigating a contest to decide who will be the next leader? The Guild itself is able to RP pushing its leader to improve its standing within the wizarding community – I could imagine enchanters telling their representatives on each of the three Councils of Alignment, to push for rules saying only enchanters may enchant – never going to happen, but it is still good RP.
2. Improved opportunities for inter-guild RP: The Transmuters have never held a seat on the Supreme Council – but those blasted Invokers have had one since its institution! Relations between the two guilds are close to breaking point… most of Faerun is nervous that one wrong footstep might have transmuters battling invokers very, very soon.
3. Improved opportunities for wizardly respect: Imagine being able to introduce yourself as “Supreme Councillor” or “Councillor”. It also opens up positions of authority and influence, not only to ‘guild leaders’ but also to those quite high in power within each guild, but who have not yet entered a Mage Fair (or however guild leaders are chosen).
4. Any other ideas? I know my brain is brimming with advantages, but I can’t seem to get them out.
What might be needed? – well, maybe an area in each respective city, for the Alignment Council. A building in the sewers of Zhentil Keep for the Evil Council (linked to Menzo through a Gate, and unable to be left, which allows drow involvement without breaking the surface-disallowing rule in the MUD). A tower in Westgate for neutral, maybe? And a tower in Waterdeep for the good? Maybe a rotating system where the Supreme Council will meet at the Good Tower one year, and the Evil Sewer-place-thing the next? Once I have finished school, I am willing to volunteer for building some of these.
Some of you might be thinking: Oh, Good God have mercy on us… he’s saying all this, and the forum post was about apprenticeship! But, I think that apprenticeship, and the issues around it, are important matters that concern all wizard RPers. I take my wizard RP seriously, because its fun(er) that way. Yes, it’s a game, but it’s also fun to RP knowing that other wizard RPers are going to be doing the same. If that makes sense. So, in order to try and implement a way that apprenticeship is encouraged within the game, I have suggested this…
Thinking on, it might have been a complete waste of 30 mins, but then again, maybe something in this great big mass of seething ideas, will inspire someone to do something different?
If you’re still reading… thank you.
If you have knowledge, let others light their candles with it.
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
Lerytha, I'm not trying to put you down by any means so don't take this personally, but I do see a few problesm with your system.
First off, This is groing to require a LOT of high level wizards and frankly, there aren't too many around, there are some, but I don't really think enough to cover all of the positions you stated.
Second, you stated that the high positions would be reserved for only guild leaders. This in itself is a problem. I did a quick check on the current leaders and as far as I can tell the only one thathas logged even remotely recently, is Merriman. All the others have been gone for years. I'm not trying to point fingers or make anyone feel bad, I'm just stating how things are. Also, some of the guilds don't have leaders yet.
My third point kind of ties in to my first. Unless I am mistaken, there are very few evil wizards. I know there are some, but not many and definately not many high level evil wizards (which is understandable if you consider how hard wizards are to make and then add in little help from others plus opression from goods).
Personally, I think that if we had a larger player base, this idea would be very good. However (and correct em if I'm wrong) I don't think we really have enough players that regularly log to make this work. Also, the amount of organization may make some things difficult as (assuming I understood you correctly) it requires a lot of people to be on at one time for these meetings. Granted, you did say that they wouldn't meet very often but you have to take into account that FK has players from all over the world and trying to organize a time that would work for everyone may be near impossible.
I do like your idea, but at this point in time, I really don't think it would run very smoothly. For now, I think things should be kept fairly simple and once things are established more solidly, then you might start building on it. Again, I don't mean to offend you at all. Just want to point out some potential road blocks. Hope I didn't upset anyone
First off, This is groing to require a LOT of high level wizards and frankly, there aren't too many around, there are some, but I don't really think enough to cover all of the positions you stated.
Second, you stated that the high positions would be reserved for only guild leaders. This in itself is a problem. I did a quick check on the current leaders and as far as I can tell the only one thathas logged even remotely recently, is Merriman. All the others have been gone for years. I'm not trying to point fingers or make anyone feel bad, I'm just stating how things are. Also, some of the guilds don't have leaders yet.
My third point kind of ties in to my first. Unless I am mistaken, there are very few evil wizards. I know there are some, but not many and definately not many high level evil wizards (which is understandable if you consider how hard wizards are to make and then add in little help from others plus opression from goods).
Personally, I think that if we had a larger player base, this idea would be very good. However (and correct em if I'm wrong) I don't think we really have enough players that regularly log to make this work. Also, the amount of organization may make some things difficult as (assuming I understood you correctly) it requires a lot of people to be on at one time for these meetings. Granted, you did say that they wouldn't meet very often but you have to take into account that FK has players from all over the world and trying to organize a time that would work for everyone may be near impossible.
I do like your idea, but at this point in time, I really don't think it would run very smoothly. For now, I think things should be kept fairly simple and once things are established more solidly, then you might start building on it. Again, I don't mean to offend you at all. Just want to point out some potential road blocks. Hope I didn't upset anyone
-
Amalia
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 331
- Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:51 pm
- Location: Ardeep Forest
- Contact:
That does raise an interesting question of whether Wizardry or Drowhood would be more overarching... Krynn never had that problem to deal with. I'd be inclined to say that Drow civilization would look down on surface wizards, though, and surface wizards likewise have too much a distaste for Drow to work with them.
Dear Enemy: May the Lord hate you and all your kind, may you be turned orange in hue, and may your head fall off at an awkward moment.
As far as whether being a Drow or being a wizard is more overarching that varys within Drow society. There is a Drow city Shamath which is ruled by Drow wizards, not by the priesthood. The Drow of Shamath would certainly be more interested in a council of mages (As long as the Drow were superior of course )
Also since most Drow mages are male and therfore excluded from true power within the society (except pherhaps for Gromph Baenre). I think many would be interested in gaining power within such an organisation to further there own ends and ego's.
The Drow hatred of the elven race is unlilkley to surface within the Evil mages council since i have never heard of an evil elf ?.
The attitude of the surface mages to the Drow is also likley to vary depending on whether they believe the lies the elfs have spread about the Drow. And since by definition the evil council are evil then what is there problem with a bit of murder mayhem and attempted genocide ?.
Duranamir
) Also since most Drow mages are male and therfore excluded from true power within the society (except pherhaps for Gromph Baenre). I think many would be interested in gaining power within such an organisation to further there own ends and ego's.
The Drow hatred of the elven race is unlilkley to surface within the Evil mages council since i have never heard of an evil elf ?.
The attitude of the surface mages to the Drow is also likley to vary depending on whether they believe the lies the elfs have spread about the Drow.
And since by definition the evil council are evil then what is there problem with a bit of murder mayhem and attempted genocide ?.Duranamir
I'd like to thank everyone for this open discourse. The input has been astounding and none of the posts, though some openly disagree with others, have even flirted with negativity or flames. Bravo!
I respectfully disagree with the notion that there should be no negative consequences to going it alone. I am not advocating putting a heavy clamp on those who choose not to apprentice with a master, but I do think that there need to be more obstacles to that path. Going it alone, or against the "regular" way, in any endevour is always more difficult. As mentioned above, a large part of the reason for the Ranger Council and the concept of apprenticeships among rangers was to attempt to improve the knowledge and rp of those who choose that class. It has largely accomplished that goal as evidenced by the very complimentary posts of those who have noticed the change in ranger rp throughout the game. It follows that those who do not want to take the time to rp an apprenticeship with a ranger choose not to make rangers. And this is a good thing for the MUD. I would transfer the same idea to wizard apprentices. If people choose not to play a wizard because they don't want to rp an apprenticeship (one of the concerns posted above), then the FK wizarding community might be better off without that pc among them. That is not a slam, it is a perfectly acceptable benefit to the system. Conversely, those who choose to make a "rogue" wizard will know before making the character that there are obstacles inherent to that choice. This will make it so that only those players who can handle that level of challenge will make that choice. Twinkish "rogue" wizards will be more easily identfied, and well-played ones will experience the added satisfaction of succeeding despite the obstacles not faced by their more orthodox bretheren.
I respectfully disagree with the notion that there should be no negative consequences to going it alone. I am not advocating putting a heavy clamp on those who choose not to apprentice with a master, but I do think that there need to be more obstacles to that path. Going it alone, or against the "regular" way, in any endevour is always more difficult. As mentioned above, a large part of the reason for the Ranger Council and the concept of apprenticeships among rangers was to attempt to improve the knowledge and rp of those who choose that class. It has largely accomplished that goal as evidenced by the very complimentary posts of those who have noticed the change in ranger rp throughout the game. It follows that those who do not want to take the time to rp an apprenticeship with a ranger choose not to make rangers. And this is a good thing for the MUD. I would transfer the same idea to wizard apprentices. If people choose not to play a wizard because they don't want to rp an apprenticeship (one of the concerns posted above), then the FK wizarding community might be better off without that pc among them. That is not a slam, it is a perfectly acceptable benefit to the system. Conversely, those who choose to make a "rogue" wizard will know before making the character that there are obstacles inherent to that choice. This will make it so that only those players who can handle that level of challenge will make that choice. Twinkish "rogue" wizards will be more easily identfied, and well-played ones will experience the added satisfaction of succeeding despite the obstacles not faced by their more orthodox bretheren.
Lathander,
Commander of Creativity
Commander of Creativity
I have to agree with Tavik on this one, all this sounds fine and good, but to actually get it to work is a whole other thing. The time thing is a huge problem. The ones who can only log on when those of us who are in the Central time zone USA are asleep or working lose out. They work and work and then when they need someone to help, there is no one. I think we need to work on this slowly, adapting as we go, or else we are going to have a lot of people who just give up in frustration.
I play a wizard, and it took me 2 RL years to get her to where she is, it was so VERY frustrating, and I almost deleted her more times than I can say.
Players just don't want to waste time dragging around a low level wizard who can't aid, and takes forever to get anything done. Having a group of other wizards to help the newer ones will aleviate some of the problem, but to force them to have to turn to them (wizard council) because if they don't they will fail and to take away the choice to play a wizard just because it might be to difficult is not fair either.
No other class to my knowledge except for paladins has it so difficult to achieve their goals. Where is the balance in allowing warriors to gain without checks, where as a wizard must constantly face hurdles in their search to achieve??? Just my thoughts, anyone who feels slighted I apologize.
I play a wizard, and it took me 2 RL years to get her to where she is, it was so VERY frustrating, and I almost deleted her more times than I can say.
Players just don't want to waste time dragging around a low level wizard who can't aid, and takes forever to get anything done. Having a group of other wizards to help the newer ones will aleviate some of the problem, but to force them to have to turn to them (wizard council) because if they don't they will fail and to take away the choice to play a wizard just because it might be to difficult is not fair either.
No other class to my knowledge except for paladins has it so difficult to achieve their goals. Where is the balance in allowing warriors to gain without checks, where as a wizard must constantly face hurdles in their search to achieve??? Just my thoughts, anyone who feels slighted I apologize.
-
Theillik
I'm not a fan of twinking - it actually annoys me. I agree that apprenticeships/councils would add a great deal of rp, and as Lathander said, improve the game in general, improving the wizard rp in general. I do not think there should be horrific penalties for a wizard that "goes it alone". There are even spells that one cannot reach within a guild. A guild or specific school usually has a narrow view, therefore, limiting the type of spells or the extent of spells. (This is how we get powerful evil wizards, corrupted by the magic they turn to use without guidance.)
Penalties for these wizards:
-expensive components (mentioned before)
-takes longer to train spells
-certain guild/school spells would be unavailable to them, but only *certain* ones
Or:
Could a new wizard class be implemented? Something like a "wild wizard". I know wild wizards use wild magic in dnd, but this could be adapted for fk. You could also put in the sorceror class, which uses the mana system, but cannot learn so many spells as a wizard.
Or:
Could there wizards in the council that seek out wizards that are alone to help them? Not force them into an apprenticeship, but maybe give them some lessons, teaching them the ways of a wizard, the ways of the arcane, etc.
I just sounds like people want to smoother a wizard's choice. Yes, some wizards choose to apprentice and may or may not reach to higher levels, but there are some who simply study and study, meditate and meditate, work and work, experiment and experiment, until they learn the arcane ways. It does not take a master to open these doors. I think that while rp would increase *with* apprenceships*, it will also decrease if lone wizards are thrown into impossible and extremely limiting situations: aka, hardly any spells, no trainers, etc.
It feels somewhat that some people are asking for this apprenticeship system because they want their wizards to learn/train/level up faster. Aka: powerful wizard=someone to level up with. I think we should avoid this. I think if there is a council or masters, that they NOT go with wizards to level them up. This is part of what wizarding is, and this adds to my previous point.
A wizard, through study, trial and error, frustration (Wanting to delete themselves as Rhianon said.), and other difficulties, achieves their power, one step at a time. Rhianon, don't you feel some sort of satisfaction in knowing that you *worked* at your wizard to get her where she is? In my opinion, rp will decline if wizards are not left to struggle in their field. Do you think Elimister became as powerful as he is without struggle, without being on those low levels?
Sorry, if I've said a lot...
Penalties for these wizards:
-expensive components (mentioned before)
-takes longer to train spells
-certain guild/school spells would be unavailable to them, but only *certain* ones
Or:
Could a new wizard class be implemented? Something like a "wild wizard". I know wild wizards use wild magic in dnd, but this could be adapted for fk. You could also put in the sorceror class, which uses the mana system, but cannot learn so many spells as a wizard.
Or:
Could there wizards in the council that seek out wizards that are alone to help them? Not force them into an apprenticeship, but maybe give them some lessons, teaching them the ways of a wizard, the ways of the arcane, etc.
I just sounds like people want to smoother a wizard's choice. Yes, some wizards choose to apprentice and may or may not reach to higher levels, but there are some who simply study and study, meditate and meditate, work and work, experiment and experiment, until they learn the arcane ways. It does not take a master to open these doors. I think that while rp would increase *with* apprenceships*, it will also decrease if lone wizards are thrown into impossible and extremely limiting situations: aka, hardly any spells, no trainers, etc.
It feels somewhat that some people are asking for this apprenticeship system because they want their wizards to learn/train/level up faster. Aka: powerful wizard=someone to level up with. I think we should avoid this. I think if there is a council or masters, that they NOT go with wizards to level them up. This is part of what wizarding is, and this adds to my previous point.
A wizard, through study, trial and error, frustration (Wanting to delete themselves as Rhianon said.), and other difficulties, achieves their power, one step at a time. Rhianon, don't you feel some sort of satisfaction in knowing that you *worked* at your wizard to get her where she is? In my opinion, rp will decline if wizards are not left to struggle in their field. Do you think Elimister became as powerful as he is without struggle, without being on those low levels?
Sorry, if I've said a lot...
I agree with Lath that there should be more work etc. But my big concern here is there IS a big difference in the amount of people who choose a ranger over the amount of people who choose a wizard. I think that because of how much less he playerbase is chosen, or how much less people make their wizard their most active character. I do agree it should be a little harder for those who simply choose not to apprentice. But I do not agree that those who do choose to apprentice should have a great great deal of favor in items/rewards over those who do not. I think the system works so well for rangers because we have a lot of high level outstanding rangers readily available. Basically, because of our playerbase, the amount, and the vastly different time zones, I do NOT believe this should be a forced thing, and I do not believe those who choose to become an apprentice should be greatly favored over those who do not.
Also. What happens to wizards that have high hours of roleplay, are several years old RL wise, and not level 50? I admit personally, I have two in that situation, and as poor as it may sound, there is no way I want to begin an apprenticeship now. Their rp's are pretty well mapped out they're not young duckies new to the world of magic. So will they be punished for the last of their levels because I did not want to apprentice? I know of a few well played mages (who are not mine, mind you. :P ) who are in this boat. In my mind, not just because I am one of these people, people with more roleplay than hours have way more under their belt than people who are at 50 with less hours. Not to mention, my two wizards that are not quite 50, but have many hours and are pretty old, are both evils.
I feel very strongly that there are many factors beyond "I don't wanna!" when it comes to not apprenticing a wizard. People who chose a different RP route than apprenticeship could be looking for that struggle, yes. But those who do not choose, or choose for reasons that can be seen as perfectly logical, are more than likely not looking, or deserving of a struggle.
Danica
Also. What happens to wizards that have high hours of roleplay, are several years old RL wise, and not level 50? I admit personally, I have two in that situation, and as poor as it may sound, there is no way I want to begin an apprenticeship now. Their rp's are pretty well mapped out they're not young duckies new to the world of magic. So will they be punished for the last of their levels because I did not want to apprentice? I know of a few well played mages (who are not mine, mind you. :P ) who are in this boat. In my mind, not just because I am one of these people, people with more roleplay than hours have way more under their belt than people who are at 50 with less hours. Not to mention, my two wizards that are not quite 50, but have many hours and are pretty old, are both evils.
I feel very strongly that there are many factors beyond "I don't wanna!" when it comes to not apprenticing a wizard. People who chose a different RP route than apprenticeship could be looking for that struggle, yes. But those who do not choose, or choose for reasons that can be seen as perfectly logical, are more than likely not looking, or deserving of a struggle.
Danica
Beshaba potatoes.