Death in FK

[Dalvyn]

Just a few random thoughts on what has been written above.


- I do not like perma death. If I come to a game and spend hours developping a character (and by that, I don't mean practicing the well-known sport of giant-bashing-rinse-and-repeat but making the character known, create relations between this character and other characters, giving him/her a personality, and so on)... thus, if I come to a game and spend hours developping a character, I don't want to see him/her taken away from me permanently because (s)he died.

It's fine if I have to endure severe penalties, it's fine if I lose levels/coins/experiences/things that can be gotten back with time, it's fine if I have to remains weak and actually roleplay the consequences of death for several hours (before I can go back to my littl' giants), it's fine if I have to remain dead for several hours (I can still roleplay and contact people through tell, and roleplay with other dead) waiting for a priest to log in.

That's the kind of penalty I was alluding to when I wrote "we need harsher penalties", not perma death or losing Constitution permanently or anything else more "permanent". And, in my opinion, the best solution lies in findind penalties that are harsh enough that death is feared and we don't see people just do "stand; get all corpse; wear all; east; kill giant", but also penalties that are "recoverable". Maybe something like making combat and skill usages (except language) always fail during the next X hours online, or during the next X hours online/offline (like the time spent in jail: your character wouldn't be able to do act until the next day perhaps).


- It would be easy enough to code "oil of preservation" that could be applied to a corpse to increase the timer.


- It would be easy enough to remove some (or a lot of) healers (= mobs you can type "heal" in front of). I am actually considering this option, since it's something that could be done very easily.


- It would be easy enough I guess (though that requires new code) to distinguish between 2 kinds of healers: low healers, who could only heal wounds, and (rarer) high healers who can heal wounds and raise dead.


- The answer can be differentiated and does not have to be black and white... we can have different consequences for different ways of coming back: (a) reincarnate, (b) raise dead, (c) resurrection, (d) brought back by an imm.

[Caelnai]

In reading this thread, this seems to be a response to a few characters somewhat abusing the system? But I would have to ask for consideration of the characters who aren't part of the major RPs in the game, who log on at the off times when there's less PC & Imm support, or may have other RP challenges (drow?).

For example, my main has died certainly less than most, but in those cases I RP-ed it fully, and had a hard time coming back from it. In fact, I still haven't regained what I lost from the last time, over eight RL months ago. ..and I'm still RP-ing it. I guess what I'm saying is that I've found plenty of challenge with the system as it is now.

If such changes are really warranted, could we perhaps confine it, as Balek suggested, to people who have an increasing number of deaths? I have to echo the sentiment from another thread that there have already been a lot of changes that we are all getting used to.

[Kregor]

We could take the raise dead off a large number of NPC priests, and put preserve corpse on them instead.

Also, a way of limiting the OOC autohealing in general would be to institue sliding scale pricing at the temples, as well as just flat out refusals to heal base on your alignment.

How many times I've seen someone who should NOT be in a certain faith's temple going for healing, or worse, raising. Simply have a system to where, members of the faith pay the least, members of allied faiths pay more, non-faithed pay the most, and opposing faiths will NOT be tended to at all.

This could make it more inconvenient without have to totally remove ot from the autohealers, suddenly you only have certain temples that perform raising, and only if you're of a certain faith. Sorry, that Tyrran will not be able to be drug into the temple of Cyric in the Keep to be raised. Now he has to be dragged all the way to Waterdeep if they want to use an autohealer, or, alternately, get a roaming priest (ie, PC).

Argie, while I understand your concerns about game difficulty, and I agree and echo that skill learning has been turned up TOO much, and we perhaps need an alternate system that rewards RPers as much or more as it does slashers, perm death is something I've considered for a long time. Yes, we get attached to our characters, and yes, it sucks to see one die beyond any mortal means of restoration.

I as a dungeon master have scratched thru characters on my DM roster, and I have had to put a character sheet of my own away more than once as well. I have also given a divine restoration to more than one character in a DM. I Feel lucky that we don't have insta death rooms like some MUDs, where the second you enter the room, your character and everything they own goes poof, and you never see it again. Those are stupid, cold and make no sense, because a player gets no chance to survive.

Survival is part of the random chance that D&D was originally based on. Chance to hit, chance to pick a lock, chance to die and not return by mortal means. NOTE: I said thru any MORTAL means. Just because you can no longer be raised by an autohealer, or a PCs resurrection spell, doesn't mean the gods can't restore you for their divine purpose. Just be expected to RP from the fugue plane to get it.

[Theillik]

Personally, I really just want to see the rp surrounding death increase.

If a PC dies in my games, I rip up their sheet:).

By limiting those whom can cast raise dead/resurrection to a few rare mobs and very high level PCs, we will make the quest to bring a person to life into an exciting rp! This is what I am suggesting.

Allowing bodies to remain undecayed will enable these kind of rps to occur.

[Dugald]

It's a mudd. There are some things you just can't fix. Death will always happen on a mudd, and the only way to ever "fix" people from just shrugging off a death is a hard code that really makes playing after the death less fun.

This leads to many things, not all of them good. It leads to gross underhunting...which in my opinion, is very boring. I don't know too many people who like waltzing around getting 1% for 5 kills - but I think everyone loves those "holy crap I almost got ate by a dragon" moment that would, essentially, forever be wiped out with severe penalties.

What Amalia's point was, I think, is that some PCs may get very upset about any death at all...because, it was, afterall, a death. But you can't say IC to the character, "Listen, a glitch killed me". So because you're trying to stay in character you RP something like you can't remember what happend because you don't want to tell IC a character you care about that you accidentily walked off the end of the pier...sober...at noon...and you can swim but you forgot to.

Stuff like this happens to PC's a lot, especially in that first 200 hour exploration period for new players. So I think there should be some ooc metagaming to not make death any more unpleasant than it is. Does that mean it should be acceptable to get raised, throw on clothing, and bugger off - no. But I think the lecturing bit, should be replaced by relief, and then quickly forgotten - because a players first character will die some 20 times before they get the hang of the game locations and the mechanics.

It's just a necessary evil of mudds, or rather, any game at all where PCs regularly decide to fight monsters.

While death is serious in Forgotten Realms and in Real Life, it is just a game and it shouldn't be dwelled on at length. No one jumps up and down and throws a party when you accomplish some quest that saved numerous lives, but if you die, lord knows someone is going to rip ya a new one for doing something they assumed you did (which is 100% fine if your character is just that callous...but it often comes off as lecturing to the player of the character - which is obviously silly and inappropriate).

So in conclusion, you can't feasibly take death too seriously as a PC...because by that same logic you'd have to take all the other PC's accomplishments with that same level of enthusiasm - which we all know, is kinda silly. Sometimes players of characters who have been around for years years, I think, forget the long road it took in finding that groove of safety within the game. So I guess I'd just push for patience above all else.

[Andreas]

I don't ever want to see permanent death enforced. That should always be a choice a player makes.

I think changes to mobs that can heal and raise dead would be helpful.
1. Reduce the number of mobs that can raise dead.
2. Enforce faith and alignment restrictions on raising.
3. Increase rate for raising dead to 10 platinum/level.

I find it very annoying and, quite frankly, inexcusably RUDE when I take the time to go fetch Jane Doe's corpse, carry it all the way back to my temple (or find an appropriate PC priest online), get them raised... and Jane just waltzes off without so much as blinking an eye.

Leaving healing mobs in place is good, but I think there's a definite need to restrict raising to high priest type mobs. Mobs should be able to make checks to see if (A) the dead person is of proper faith to be raised and (B) the person asking is also of proper faith. A Talassan shouldn't be dragging a dead Cyricist into a temple of Mystra and getting a raise dead. I'm not citing any specific people, just throwing out a ridiculous situation that could happen (and maybe has for all I know).

I would LOVE to see the cost of raising the dead increased to the point that it actually becomes something truly precious.

Experience penalties? Sure, makes sense to me. Granted, flubs happen and people die due to weird code bugs, but it's so few and far between that I think the good outweighs the bad in the long run.

I'm somewhat ambivalent about permanent constitution reduction. Again, those flubs are rare, but losing a con point is a big price to pay for a code bug. Regaining lost stats is far more difficult to do than regaining lost experience.

[Dugald]

I love the idea of faiths affecting whether or not mobs raise. I dislike the idea of the price of raising going up. I dislike the idea of permenant stat loss.

I think the faith matching mention of Andreas coupled with a loss of glory (which would make the most sense, imo), would be a good compromise.

I sincerely think that death should play a smaller part than what it realistically would if our characters were real. It's just something that can't be done enjoyably.

So I think I'll toss out the suggestion of, instead of punishing those for deaths, reward those who don't die.

I personally think, for any level, that if you last an entire in game year without a death - you deserve a pat on the back. Of course this should be an ooc thing and go towards any pc of the players choosing...so you couldn't just not play a PC and expect returns

I don't particularly like the idea of punishing everyone because of a few players...I'd much rather reward someone for nothing special than punish someone who doesn't really deserve it.

--------------------------

But all this is off the original topic, which is whether or not PC's should cut PC's some slack even if it isn't entirely IC - or, is life less precious in FR?. And in my opinion they should and, yes, it is.

[Theillik]

I would never want permanent death either, unless a PC or IMM asked for it.

I think the simple solution to this is just limiting PCs/NPCs whom can cast raise dead, and disabling the body decaying.

This promotes really good rp for the PCs. Death cannot be taken flippantly. There are no huge, long-lasting penalties which would ruin the game. It could only enhance the rp, allowing players to not worry about their equipment, body, loss of stat points, exp, etc.

Anyway, I've repeated this several times, so I'll try to make this my last.

This is my suggestion.

[Amalia]

I'd like to add my vote for a glory/experience loss and alignment/portfolio compatibility for raising. Some of us (see: me) are quite content to traipse halfway across the continent to raise someone if we have to, but could never, EVER come up with the kind of money Andreas is suggesting-- or even the other suggested 2 platinum per level, most likely.
And let me just say, taking up a collection for X's raising is not at all my idea of a fun way to spend an evening.

As Dugald mentioned, it takes a while for us newbies to get accustomed to the game and learn things like how to not drown and when to run so our legs aren't already chopped off, and so we die a fair amount. Penalties as stiff as some people are suggesting would very likely deter new players. I had enough of an issue with getting lectured every time the player did something newbieish-- my character has way too much wisdom to accidentally walk off a dock and drown while invisible, and it irritated me to no end that I had to play it like she actually did that.

I, too, move that death start to be taken a lot more seriously when it happens to more experienced players, and that newbies be given some leeway for a while, and not be required to do terribly much more than cover the expense of their revival until they reach a point where they know what they're doing. Granted, RPing flippancy toward death should always be frowned upon-- but a heartfelt Thank You and payment for the raising should be enough from those who are still learning-- and in general, stern lectures and grunt work that are boring or frustrating for the player should be kept to a minimum.

[Dalvyn]

Just a few situations that I think should be kept in mind while discussing this topic (all of them taken from things I have actually seen in game).


1 - There is a PC priest online, but (s)he is not contacted and, when someone dies, their corpse is brought to a mob for a quick raise. Using a mob to raise you up should be only done when there is no other more IC/interesting solution. You don't know any priest online? Try and contact people you know and see if THEY know a priest. Still no priest online available? Heck... call one on AIM.

I think it should be made clear that the mob solution - the one where you can just get up and would not have to bother roleplaying with the PC priest - should really be seen as a last resort. One that people would hate to use, as much as reincarnate. And rising the cost to 2 plat/level might do that.

Just an answer to those who say that this is way too much and that they couldn't afford it ... The answer would be simple: seek out a PC priest, and (1) you will hopefully initiate some interesting roleplay, and (2) the price will be much lower and more interesting. More interesting because it's more fun to have to do something related to the PC's faith (write a report about something if Oghma, seek out and help a young wizard if Mystran, go and fight a creature if Tempuran, and so on). Much more likely to generate interesting roleplay than just paying a mob.

So, to sum it up, if that's too expensive, it's fine... It wouldn't be fine if it was the only solution, but it's not. You can't afford it? Perfect! You'll be incited to seek out PCs and generate roleplay. Isn't it what it is all about?


2 - PC died, PC's friend bring corpse to mob, PC is raised, PC did not learn anything. I tend to be very lenient with new players - after all, the learning curve when you come on the mud can be quite steep. But when you die because you went ALONE into some place, then get raised and told to seek out other people to journey with you, then keep everything on your own, then die again, then get raised and lectured again, but still do everything on your own and die again... Well, it's fine if you feel that death is penalizing in the end.

Death shouldn't be made trivial just because you don't want to understand that you just can't do everything on your own. After all, the M in Mud, does not stand for "single player game that lots of people play at the same time", but for multiplayer. If you want to play the mud as a single-player game, it's fine if you die and have to suffer the consequences.


3- Third example - and the worse by far in my opinion -. PC dies, and PC priest is called. The priest comes and starts roleplaying the resurrection. Priest contacts the dead PC and indicates what the PC will have to do in exchange for the resurrection. Dead PC whines, whines, whines, and simply contacts a friend to tell him "Get my corpse and bring me to a mob. I'd rather pay coins than roleplay/do something else than mob-bashing."

Mob resurrection should not be available as a "cheap", roleplay-free option to come back and be immediately able/allowed to go back to mob-bashing.


I am not saying this solution is good, that solution is not good... I'm just giving out examples of what I think should not do-able in game. Or at least examples of things that people should be incited not to do.

[Lerytha]

In reference to those who say MOB raising is fundamental, I will say, although I am not really a LONG-TIME player, I did start playing as a newbie before the mob-raising was instituted. So, the dying roleplay always used to be a lot more fun.

Now, I die, and I get raised by people who drag me to the mob. I "wake"... and... well, then I just hand over platinum to those who paid and although I want to RP death (and try to), it is a lot more difficult.

In the pre-mobraising days, I would die, and I would RP terror, to try and find those who knew me. Then a priest would find me, and raise me. Then, they would always give me something to do. I remember a big problem with one Priestess who raised me, who gave me a task to do, and I completely forgot about it OOCly. But hey, that was fun, and it was all dealt with IC!

If we look at the mob-raising counter-style stuff that was implemented, I think we can say it was done to help those playing at odd times. Well, one thing to that - I always used to play at odd times. Not the oddest, I admit, but certainly odd. But there would always (eventually) be someone who could help.

But with any new evils I started, very, very rarely would there be anyone to help. So, mob-raising counter-style should be able to work for them. I think all of this has been said... but I just wanted to give my own perspective on this matter, and just to say that getting rid of mob-raising counter-style won't make it "not-fun" for newbies.

~Ol

[Dugald]

I guess I just don't understand where roleplay is much more enhanced when there is a PC priest there or an NPC priest and a PC dragger. It's always been RP'd the same that I've witnessed, with only one or two exceptions.

So what is inherently different in the RP? The obvious IC action, since that term seems to be used quite often without actual thought behind it - is to go to the closest place you know where to raise them...you as a player may understand the time the other player has to stay in the deadlands, but your character can't know that - it's an ooc concept.

So if the answer is, "It promotes grouping and PC interaction" that's great, I'll gladly do such from now on. I just personally don't know many priests at all, and quite frankly, rarely if ever figure out what class a PC is unless they tell me or we're grouped together in combat.

And I don't think too many priest class players would appreciate an otell of "is there any chance you could happen along the sewers on the south side?"

I guess what I'm saying is, if we can act ooc to increase overall enjoyment of everyone by sometimes travelling across a continent to find a raiser when there is some dude with a holy symbol across the street - why can't we as players understand that death will happen, and it'll happen quite often for new players, and to lay off the "you're a fool of a Took!" Gandalf rip off speeches to "teach" pc's of what they did wrong. Likely, and I know it's not always clear who are the relatively new players, the lesson was already learned when the lich started casting spells Maybe just a little more, "thank goodness you're alright" and leaving it at that....unless of course, you're the type of healer who raises people only to tell them how stupid they are.

If you actually think the character was an idiot, then just don't raise them. And maybe the benefit of PC raising could be no after death effects, with a tripling time of death effects with mob raises....or heck, make it a full day in real life time.

I would much rather shoot a tell to a character my character is comfortable with (because some PC's I'd never want knowing my PC died because last time they berated them so much that the character actually considers death over asking them for help) and know ooc they will probably take them to a mob for raising, and I'd gladly give up 24 hours of any quests/training/coining - if that meant I didn't have to have some PCs find out about the death.

It's such a simple thing to do to raise the overall enjoyment of the game. We're all playing characters with exceptional abilities, and all good PC's have likely finished quests that 100 times over make up for their stupid deaths. If it becomes a problem, where a PC is repeatedly (more than twice) getting killed because of farming or overhunting in the same area, give an ooc warning and then strikes. But IC, nearly all of our characters have done great deeds that a good aligned cleric should feel honored to bring back to Faerun. I think there is a sweeping sentiment of players feeling they're being taken advantage of, instead of actual characters feeling so (and the simple solution to that is to stop aiding those who don't appreciate it).

[Kregor]

Let's see if I can address these one point at a time:

I guess I just don't understand where roleplay is much more enhanced when there is a PC priest there or an NPC priest and a PC dragger. It's always been RP'd the same that I've witnessed, with only one or two exceptions.

If there isn't dramatic RP involved in the PC resurrections you've witnessed, then I have to wonder what PCs you've encountered. Sadly, there will be some young priest characters who treat raising as "show up, cast spell, be done." That is a sad consequence of the fast food counter raising that's been added in the past year and some, as Lerytha mentions above. Priests who put no good RP into their raising should be subject to the same prodding and corrections to RP as the recipient who does not RP like they're a dead person who just suddenly starts breathing in their once rotting corpse once more.

I just personally don't know many priests at all, and quite frankly, rarely if ever figure out what class a PC is unless they tell me or we're grouped together in combat.

Then, as Dalvyn said, ask around too people you DO know to find a priest. If you don't know many people, period, then you need to know more characters. Once your character has some hours outside the temple under his belt, there's not much excuse to not know several RP-friendly characters. Besides, if you can get to know someone who can drag your corpse from the giants of Hartsvale to the village healer, you can also get to know someone who might know a PC priest or two.

And I don't think too many priest class players would appreciate an otell of "is there any chance you could happen along the sewers on the south side?"

And you couldn't do that anyway, because that's collaborating OOCly. Contacting someone offline to say "Hey, we need a priest to log" as Dalvyn suggests, and then making all the contact and arrangements IC is different.

Why can't we as players understand that death will happen, and it'll happen quite often for new players, and to lay off the "you're a fool of a Took!" Gandalf rip off speeches to "teach" pc's of what they did wrong.

Let's see.... to put it tactfully, those clerics are, ICly, wiser than you, chances are, unless you are also, in fact, a priest. Clerics' primary attribute is wisdom, and so they share wisdom as part of their ministries. The fact that you somehow consider this drivel, only helps to drive home the sterility and lack of RP opportunity that a raise-o-matic mob offers.

Also, putting this in such a tone on your post, is in fact scathing to the players who invest RP effort into their characters, and is doubtfully either pleasing for them OOCly to hear you say, nor for the gods who bestow them with their blessings.

I'd gladly give up 24 hours of any quests/training/coining - if that meant I didn't have to have some PCs find out about the death.

In that case, the penalty is not compelling to you. All the more reason to require a PC to do it. If it's compelling, you'll die less, that's the point.

But IC, nearly all of our characters have done great deeds that a good aligned cleric should feel honored to bring back to Faerun.

Firstly, there are also evil characters in the game, not all are heroic characters who earn accolades from the goodly folk of Faerun. Secondly, so many want to think themself the mega-hero. Remember this: in Faerun there are always mega-heroes that have done many greater (or more infamous) things than you have, or ever will. Pretty much every main character you read about in a forgotten realms novel, consider them better, stronger, and more famous, because if you ever face one down, they will be. Should an NPC cleric be honored? depending on the mob's level, he may be as experienced or moreso than you. Don't be presumptious, or humility follows, take it from experience.

I think there is a sweeping sentiment of players feeling they're being taken advantage of, instead of actual characters feeling so (and the simple solution to that is to stop aiding those who don't appreciate it).

This would mean letting OOC sentiment color one's IC decisions and actions.

In conclusion, as Lerytha mentioned above. I was in this game for a good long time before NPCs got raise dead. I died afew times between all my chars. My corpse never rotted. Even the worst occurance, where in a huge cataclysm 6 or 7 players died, and we ran out of gems when Kregor was the last to be raised, it resulted in an hours long RP where a dozen people were scouring the realms looking for a useable gem. The collaboration was priceless, the RP was rich, as Kregor contacted his fiancee from the realms of the dead, as she begged him to hold on and return to her, and he feared he may never truly get to marry his beloved. The high priest of Kregor's faith was in constand prayer to their Lord, and finally, by divine miracle, Kregor was restored.

This was not an OOC tragedy for me, I wasn't looking to get back to life so I could go finish my quest, or bash more mobs. The quest will be there next week, so would the mobs, if that's what you prefer to do. This was a solid RP opportunity. And several people's roleplay for that day was touched by it.

Death isn't supposed to be convenient, even for those who'd prefer to go running aroound the realms on their own, and avoid RP raisings.

[Dugald]

I don't disagree with anything you said. I just think a level of metagaming involving certain aspects of the game could benefit the game as a whole - especially involving PC deaths.

But I think you may be misunderstanding my first point you chose to highlight.

When I get dragged to a mob for a raise (or drag someone myself), I've very often witnessed a lengthy and desirable dialogue between the raised and the rescuer. While I understand that it's important for the PC priest to PC raised interaction, I don't think that RP between a PC raised and a PC dragger is any less worth while - and I personally consider them equal (though if it's to the point where no PC's ever get telled to raise, that is a problem - because it is important as well). I wasn't trying to suggest that both situations stimulated an equally poor, "fast food" dialogue.

[Boe]

I remember a time, years ago when to die in the middle of the night meant worry about your corpse. If I recall correctly that is the reason why mob healers were given the ability to raise the dead was because often times, in the middle of a Sunday night someone would die. Usually this someone would be from the other side of the world (not American obviously) and would be stuck with knowing a warrior and a mage...if that. What I am getting at is..if it isn't broken, don't fix it. If you don't like someone's RP after you raise them, then stop raising them. Put out an IC notice of their failure to be humbled by your forgiving kindness, after retrieving their corpse that was most certainly not a planned event.

Say for example a level 11 character dies, no one is going to shell out 22 platinum for them to be raised, let alone 110. What are the odds they even know someone who can raise or knows someone who can raise the dead.

*Shrug* It seems like we are trying to fix something that isn't broken.

-Kyle

[Dugald]

And on that same note, if you desperately want to be that rescuer that I think all clerics see the appeal in - make the RP as enjoyable as possible for the raised...instead of calling them an idiot and threats about how they never want to have to do this for them again.

Obviously it'd work best as a two way street, where the player of the cleric PC wants to initiate that RP with the deceased, and the deceased is looking forward to the RP after the raising.

[Dalvyn]

I am not sure I get what you mean, Dugald... do you mean that it's good that PC priests are not the only solution because you do not like it when the PC priest who raised you chastise you about not throwing away your life recklessly?

For example:

Situation 1 - Character A goes somewhere on his own. Character A dies. Priest B raises character A and says 'Don't do that again, don't go there on your own, seek help first.'

Situation 2 - Character A goes somewhere (same place or another) on his own. Character A dies. Character A thinks: "Oh, I'll just ask someone to get my corpse to a mob for a quick raise. I don't want to have to endure being chastised again."

I honestly fail to see it as a valid reason to use a mob priest. That's what I call the roleplay-free solution: let's avoid the lengthy morale/roleplay/speech and be able to get straight back to what I was doing before.


Don't take the following directly: I value you as a player and I appreciate your posting your opinion and point of view to make the discussion more interesting... but I cannot find a less blunt way to express what I mean.

Case A - If your character decides to do things on his own, fails to successfully do that (i.e. dies), get raised and chastised about doing things on his own (or anything else like: not being cautious enough, trying to attack powerful enemies, ...), then ignores the morale and keeps doing things on hiw own, then it's quite IC that he would be chastised again, that the PC priest would ask increasingly higher price/harder quest out of him for the next raises. And even mob priests would do so, it's a bit "cheating" (choosing the roleplay-free option) to use mobs just to avoid being chastised.

Case B - If the player does not want to be chastised (because that gets on his nerves or because he does not want to waste time with that kind of roleplay), then perhaps there's a problem with the perception of the game. It is akin to players who think that roleplaying is just a strupid way to lose one's time and who would rather get straight to the action: walk to gathering room, ask 'Can a wiz spell me up? Going to raid Feebov. Any tank wanna come?' the go kill mobs and train up. That's just a different kind of game and WoW might be a better game for those players (and better-looking too).

[Dugald]

I understand and I think it's a difficult balance to reach. But I don't think it'd be too difficult to send the message that the cleric is more than happy, or even bound by duty, to aid the fallen - instead of some of the ways I've heard clerics interact with the newly raised...essentially pushing them away from ever seeking out their aid ever again, out of fear alone.

If given the choice to be raised by a PC priest, or by an NPC, I'd always choose the PC priest. But if the only PC priest who is on, my character doesn't like or I'm on so late that only 3 other PC's are around (and I plan on staying on another 3 hours) - I'd much rather have someone drag me to a mob raise and RP the coming back to life experience with the dragger. I don't necessarily see the reaction of a priest to graciously sit back and let the newly risen be with his friends as being particularly out of place, as opposed to thumping whatever he wants to get across.

So instead of the RP being Priest to Pupil, it is Friend to newly risen Friend - which I don't hold as something without worth. I agree whole heartedly that a player shouldn't go to a MOB npc to avoid roleplay or to avoid a PC chastising for OOC reasons - but I think you're using the lowest common denominator argument as to why all mob priests should be avoided. I think plenty of people are raised by mobs and encounter great RP with the dragger, or group of rescuers.

There are tons of things PCs can create/cast/repair that shops do as well - while it should always been encouraged to seek out those PC routes to network and get more depth to the game, I don't think it'd be particularly productive to force it.

[Amalia]

I like NPC priests for the rare deaths that you really just want to gloss over because they make no sense-- the fewer people who have to know, the better, and if they're amenable to not mentioning it, even moreso. Drowning because you didn't realize you were in the water, getting eaten because your map showed road where there was actually wilderness that you knew better than to enter (as sometimes happens), your first death on a city square that alerts you to the fact that wandering monsters can in fact walk on question marks. (I hope none of this is IC information, I don't think it is)

I'd also like to note that I agree with Dugald on the point of rescuers: whether one is raised by a PC or an NPC, he still has someone to thank. If Tommy the Fighter drags Billy the Mage to be raised by an NPC and pays for it, Tommy has just as much opportunity to lecture, demand, soothe, comfort, teach, etc. as would any PC priest Tommy had brought Billy to. Now, I like the use of PC priests, but I don't think using NPCs necessitates any less roleplay-- only roleplay with different characters. If two players are going to make a killing-and-raising-sans-RP duo, they could just as easily have one play a priest and get around the rising cost of raising as they level.

On that note, sometimes characters may disagree on whether a death was good/acceptable/worthwhile or not. A young Tempurian fighting something with which he was evenly matched and having the battle eventually turn against him might still see it as a glorious event. In character, they might not, as such, want a Priest of Kelemvor to raise them, knowing full well said priest would think death too high a price for that battle, and get huffy at them for what they see as trying to glorify Tempus by fighting worthy foes. In that case, I think it'd be much more in character for that person to choose an NPC who would see why they'd fought and died to ask for help over a PC who wouldn't. This might go along very well with the alignment business of NPC priests.

Finally, I want to clarify something: what exactly is a Priest saying when he says, "I won't raise you."? Is it a declaration that the dead individual did something stupid and will have to find someone else to take pity on them? Or is it more than that, something akin to "You can rot in the Abyss for eternity for all I care."? I'd really like to figure this out before I raise anybody myself, because if it's not just flat-out damnation, there are raisings I know my character would refuse to perform.

[Andreas]

Finally, I want to clarify something: what exactly is a Priest saying when he says, "I won't raise you."? Is it a declaration that the dead individual did something stupid and will have to find someone else to take pity on them? Or is it more than that, something akin to "You can rot in the Abyss for eternity for all I care."? I'd really like to figure this out before I raise anybody myself, because if it's not just flat-out damnation, there are raisings I know my character would refuse to perform.

Let me speak from personal experience here. I'm not going to name any PCs, but here are a few situations that have happened to me.

Example 1

Tom is evil. Tom dies. Tom sees Andreas online. Tom sends a tell to Andreas, "Help me! Help me! Monsters killed me in the mountains!"

This makes almost NO sense to me at all. Andreas knows Tom is evil. Tom should know that Andreas simply can't help him.

Example 2

Dick is neutral but Andreas knows he hangs around with Cyricists, Loviatans, Talassans and other generally not nice people. Dick has been arrested for theft and banished from Waterdeep. Dick dies. Dick sees Andreas online. Dick sends a tell to Andreas, "Help me! Help me! Monsters killed me in the mountains!"

Again, I see no logical reason why Andreas would feel compelled to help anyone he knows to be a party to evil acts. It is completely against Andreas's faith and vows as a Paladin to do so.

Example 3

Harry is neutral but a known member of a faith that is an enemy of Helm's Church. Harry dies. Harry sends a tell to Andreas, "Help me! Help me! Monsters just killed me in the mountains!"

Once more, proper roleplay dictates that Andreas refuse to help.

PC Priests need to consider their faith and the faith of the person that is asking to be raised. Neither an Oghman nor a Maskarran would raise a Cyricist. A Cyricist might not even raise someone in their own faith! A Tempurian would probably raise anyone exept a worshipper of Garagos. In a polytheistic campaign where the gods have been known to walk among mortals, anything as monumental as asking a god for a new lease on life should only be undertaken with great care, consideration and reverence.