Death in FK

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Kregor
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Post by Kregor » Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:24 pm

Amalia wrote:I like NPC priests for the rare deaths that you really just want to gloss over because they make no sense-- the fewer people who have to know, the better, and if they're amenable to not mentioning it, even moreso. Drowning because you didn't realize you were in the water, getting eaten because your map showed road where there was actually wilderness that you knew better than to enter (as sometimes happens), your first death on a city square that alerts you to the fact that wandering monsters can in fact walk on question marks. (I hope none of this is IC information, I don't think it is)
The general rule for death in this game has always been: If it happens, you roll with it IC. If you ask on question when you die, in almost all cases, even in the case of a typo, you would be told to deal with it ICly. There is no do-over, short of a code glitch is which an imm might directly intervene and decide to say "oops, scratch that!"

Not knowing there's a giant roaming on the "?" you're aiming for is not an accident, it's there on purpose, typically. Dying from lag, while typing hurriedly on the wilderness map and ending up in a forest tile would also be expected to be rolled with ICly. Running out of a fly spell in the middle of a body of water would also be expected to be treated ICly. And, accidentally ending up in a water tile, and drowning would also be treated ICly.

My first char died early in his career by ending up in a river tile due to lag. This was not treated as a "oops, I just lagged, so get me raised real quick and get it over with". The RP became: "while stopping to rest at a riverbank, I slipped and fell into the water, being nearly exhaused, I could not surface, and drowned. One of my friends rescued me and brought me to the High Priest of my soon to be faith, with friends gathered around me as they heard the news. When the priest brought me back to life, there was rejoicing and relief among my friends, and in gratitude, I pulled myself weakly to my knees, and dedicated my life to serving the Lord who returned me from death."

Death should never be treated like an oops. Like most occurances, if it happens in code, it happens ICly. That's been the common law rule on FK for ages. I recall an old veteran character about the "freak of wild magic" in which three of his bags were just ripped from his hands and vanished (read: game crashed while he was holding the bags, and they disappeared from his inventory when rebooted). You, as a general rule, shouldn't mix true reality with the alternate reality and say "Oops, didn't really happen." Just as cars become "dragons" in an SCA gathering, you can find ways to make the reality of an action, fit into the fantasy occurance.
Last edited by Kregor on Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Mask » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:32 pm

Personally, what I would like to see is less elitism with regard to judging other people's RP, and more actual RP. I suggest that if you find other people's RP with regards to death offensive that you demonstrate how you think it should be done, and take whatever joy, richness and depth that you find in such RP.

I think that the time spent discussing how badly some people role-play would be much better spent initiating 'positive' RP, starting new story-lines, etc, and getting those players involved in an enriching, in character, role-playing experience.

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Post by Kregor » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:35 pm

To clarify, I'm not trying to be an elitist, my last couple of posts were trying to offer examples of why and how what some consider an "inconsequential death" doesn't have to be. Meanwhile, those who would criticize a priest for their RP during a raising as being to "high and mighty" and drawing out the ordeal, are in fact knocking someone's RP.

The only thing I don't like being party to, is instances where people want to totally ditch the RP aspect of some parts of the game. If someone doesn't like the terms of a PC priest's resurrection, and goes and otells a buddy to come and take them to a NPC raiser. Or getting an osay that someone you help wishes they didn't have to have to endure your obsessive RP. Or someone who gets raised, grabs their stuff, and walks out; I've had plenty of instances where I don't even get an IC or OOC thank you.

With apologies if I speak too boldly, having an issue against things such as those, I do not think constitutes elitism. I don't think it's elitism to expect that people in an RP mud actually RP. I personally would never directly question the performance and execution of anyone's RP; it is a lack thereof that I ever take a personal issue with. Whether it be lack of RP around a death, or bullrushing a quest, or something as serious as a bad pkill.

This is also not to state or accuse that any specific person who has posted other views in this thread are guilty of the lack of RP I address, so please don't take it as a personal attack. Indeed, sadly, I probably just invest too many words because most of those who have no interest in RPing at all in these situations, doubtfully read the threads on the boards, let alone would have the determination to contribute to the discussion.
Last edited by Kregor on Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Dugald » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:58 pm

Do you also treat accidently walking through town without pants on IC? Do you treat all the NPC mobs refusing to talk to you IC? Do you smote to every NPC you would interract with if they were a PC and state your name every time you pass through the Waterdeep gates?

There are just somethings you have to metagame. You can't handle everything in character. Sure if someone points out that you were walking through town without pants, you blush and run to get pants - but it's not really kosher for those PC's to accuse you of flashing them (much later on) and giving your character a PC label of pervert...even though if he really was doing that, he would be.

There are just somethings that should be noticed IC, but quickly glossed over and forgotten even sooner. It's just PC courtesy, in my opinion. And if a PC did really dig down deep in a death of one of my PC's that was just a goofy OOC death (or continues to rip into him about not wearing pants in town 2 months ago) I'd avoid that PC for IC and OOC reasons. IC because my character is embarrassed of what the PC will say to everyone else, and OOC because Tyson (me) thinks that player is being rude and abusing the nature of the game.

Which gets to the death point. Some deaths are obviously viewed from a players perspective as more character building than others - falling off a pier, will likely not change your character much...those situations are where I'd dislike waiting much longer to have the opportunity to play because of waiting for a PC priest.
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Post by Kilak » Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:51 pm

I'll admit I had a wonderful RP after a death last night. However, the cause of said death is one that I really don't like. If this would be considered IC, then I'm sorry.

One of my characters last night was killed by a small dummy in the School of Wonder. Is there any way dummies can be set with stunmode? I would think that most schools or training centers wouldn't have deadly training for the new, raw talent (My character is only 10th lvl).

I roleplayed the death out very well with the people who rescued my body, and I was raised by a PC priest, which I have already worked to repay. I guess what I am getting at is yes, I had good RP from a silly (to me) death, but it could have been avoided by not having the dummies able to kill. I'm not exactly sure how I will end up RPing his further teachings at the school.
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Post by Dalvyn » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:05 pm

It would be easy enough to rename all "dummy" mob to "practice golems". It would explain why they fight back, and it would then be IC to get killed by them. :)

But back to the topic... "unIC" deaths. I am not sure what could be considered an unIC death, to be honest...

- death because of a code glitch... right. Those are clearly unIC and generally, you can get an imm to raise you for free and it's fine to pretend that nothing happened.

- death by walking into the water. Well, there's a config option (config +/- thing) that allows you to NOT enter water rooms if you want to avoid that. The only way to drown is to (a) turn it on and (b) enter a watery room and drown. In this case, the death is IC.

- ... I can't find any other unIC deaths (except code glitches). Could you give examples please?
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Post by Theillik » Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:42 pm

Just my opinion, but I think this thread is getting a little out of hand.

To be frank, who cares if a character dies? Does a little blib on your screen really matter that much? I understand that it may have taken a long time to earn money, to train, to earn magical weapon, etc, etc. I have a character that has over 600 hours. I would be a little annoyed if he died. But..so what? After the initial annoyance, I'd get over it and make a new one.

Let it go, is my suggestion. Make a new character. Try a new challenge.

I'd even go so far as to vote for permanent death, no chance of resurrection unless a deity deems your miniscule character worthy to live anew.
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Post by Zach » Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:43 pm

Dalvyn wrote:... I can't find any other unIC deaths (except code glitches). Could you give examples please?
If it happened due to code working the way it is supposed to... then it is IC... If some freek of code happened or the code is not supposed to work that way... then i would concider it an unIC event ...

not only pretaining to death... but loosing bags when they are IN your inv... sure we can make up some excuse most always blamed on magic... but it is not very IC for that to happen
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Post by Zach » Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:43 pm

Edit: due to the fact that I can not delete and i got an error stating:

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DEBUG MODE

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File : smtp.php
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Post by Acalanthis » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:39 pm

Theillik wrote: To be frank, who cares if a character dies?
You the player? Everyone your character has grown to know, built up relationships with? Even, to an extent, the enemies he has cultivated or followers he has attracted to unite under his banner through countless hours of roleplay?
Does a little blib on your screen really matter that much? I understand that it may have taken a long time to earn money, to train, to earn magical weapon, etc, etc. I have a character that has over 600 hours. I would be a little annoyed if he died. But..so what? After the initial annoyance, I'd get over it and make a new one.

Let it go, is my suggestion. Make a new character. Try a new challenge.
Yes, it does. Because those characters are greater than the sum of their parts. They don't represent 600 or whatever hours (and I know people with more than double that spent playing their beloved creations) grinding skills, earning magical weapons and accumulating plat. They represent friendships and enmities forged, storylines that may never see completion, lives other than their own that have been touched. Maybe you aren’t particularly attached to your character. I’d suggest you are, by far and away, in the minority.

For many people perma-death would be an absolute tragedy – perhaps enough to make them quit the game in frustration and, dare I say it, grief.
I'd even go so far as to vote for permanent death, no chance of resurrection unless a deity deems your miniscule character worthy to live anew.
While I concede that if FK was ‘the real world’ the gods would doubtless not notice every Tom, Dick and Harry to shuffle off his mortal coil, we have to remember that this is a game. Its purpose is to be fun.
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Post by Elwin » Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:01 pm

I would have to go against Thiellik on this one as well. Although I sort of understand what he is saying, I cannot agree with it. I believe he means that they aren't real people, just code in a game, so what does it matter if they die. Personally, my main character has somewhere around 1500-1600 hours on him, and I know a lot of people who have as much if not as much as double that. All that time put into a character, just to have it wiped away, would sort of not want me to play the game anymore. Why, you ask. The reason is because I put all that time into him. I spent countless real life months developing RP, yes training, making the character as close to real as possible. Why would I want to start another character when the same thing could happen when I get that one to around 1500 hours? I wouldn't personally, but that is just my opinion.
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Post by Theillik » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:10 pm

I was exaggerating to make a point, but I do understand and I do agree with what Elwin and Acalanthus (and others) are saying. We put time into these characters and our time matters to us. So, I apologize if I offended anyone with my last post.


This whole thread stems from rp that suggests a levity towards death. In my opinion, this kind of rp ruins mood. There is a lack of IC fear, IC struggle to overcome incredible odds, resulting in IC satisfaction of success and gain.

I don't think we can really solve this with codes. It's up to the player to rp these essentials to an interesting game.

Personally, I think the whole problem comes from the Kelemvorite faith. What's wrong with those people? They are supposed to help people understand death!!!....just kidding.

A real suggestion: maybe some training for characters on how to rp death? maybe forcing rp when it comes to death?
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Post by Amalia » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:21 pm

I honestly don't think RP can be forced. The best we can do, in my opinion, is just refuse to raise the characters of people who act like death is nothing to worry about. If nothing else, that will force them to worry more about dying as players.
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Post by Dugald » Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:13 pm

- ... I can't find any other unIC deaths (except code glitches). Could you give examples please?
It's not so much that it isn't technically IC - it's that it is un characteristic of the character's personality because of a lapse on the player's end. Like I said about having your clothes fall off while fighting - and ending up walking around for a week not realizing it. Yes technically that is all IC and your character is a goofball exhibitionist - but if the player wishes for that to not be a defining point of his character, then I think it should be something easily glossed over since it was clearly a player lapse.

Like walking off a pier, and forgetting to swim, it's technically IC - but clearly a player lapse. It isn't dieing during a daring adventure, or during a long trek across a dangerous terrain, or in an RP PK situation that can really define the direction and make up of the character...it's a stupid forehead slapping death that everyone has experienced. Those are the deaths I wouldn't really appreciate waiting an entire night to get raised.
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Post by Tavik » Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:22 am

I'd have to agree with Dugald here, and not just about death. I've done plenty of things that were MY (read: the player's) fault and not my character. Were we the players ACTUALLY our characters, these sort of things would never happen. People would rarely be so clumsy as to walk off a pier or run around naked ithout knowing it.

On one hand, yes these instances can be RP'd and probably should be. But on the other hand, these aren't really our character's fault and I don't think it should be RP'd to the same extent. I'm sure others have done this, but I get typing too fast and being as k is right next to l on the keyboard, I try to kill someone when I really only want to look at them. This is by NO means IC for my character to do, but it does happen and he suffers the consequences. I don't think, though, that I should have the stigma of assault attached to my character when it was MY mistake. Same goes for death. I don't think the RP should be AS intense as it would be in a truely IC death.

There's my thoughts.

P.S. To those that have the same problem with looking and killing, I set an alias to keep me from doing that (alias k thwap self).
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Post by Zach » Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:38 pm

in reg to Tavik. Before you had to type MURDER in order to start a PC deeath... kissing someone was dangerous... my ring fingers would get switched and type kill and not kiss...

Yes... some times our (players) minds start to wonder as the RL starts to distract us... but THAT is the price to pay. My kid messes with my game play by jumping on my back and using me as a jungle gym. Making me give something to someone and not being able to get it back...

How about when he jumped on me and demanded my attention right then... and i died because i (as the player) was not paying attention... should i get raised because of it? NOPE nore do i expect it... i *itch and complain about it and the near hour i had in rezing from a PC priest...

Am I going to be mad at my kid for doing it? Nope.... am i going to stop him from playing with me while I play the game... nope... That is just the way it is... and the roll of the die
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Post by Merriman » Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:35 am

Dugald wrote:Do you also treat accidently walking through town without pants on IC?
Yes. Yes I do.
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Post by Balek » Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:10 am

It's true, I've seen it.
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Post by Sune » Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am

Merriman wrote:
Dugald wrote:Do you also treat accidently walking through town without pants on IC?
Yes. Yes I do.

No, Merriman - he said 'accidently'
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Post by Dugald » Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:25 am

LOL!
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