Competitiveness in FK: Chill out...

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Theillik

Competitiveness in FK: Chill out...

Post by Theillik » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:51 am

I hope very much that something good comes from this thread, and it is not taken as a player bashing shindig (I love that word)


I find that people are competitive with the game. It would be awesome if people competed for rp! But it's not...people compete for who has the strongest character. There is no denying that.

I find from my own experience and from seeing/hearing the experiences of countless others, that people are always trying to undermine other characters, causing them to fail or not to succeed. Why do this?

Would the game be more fun if we helped each other succeed, instead of trying to undermine their success? (I'm not referring to evils undermining goods.)

This is a difficult topic to explain, but I know the problem exists. There is a sense of..well, almost fear. Fear of losing equipment, of losing characters, of being "beaten". This is not Diablo, this is rp.

Examples?

A) Fighting people because you know that you are a higher level.
B) Running from a fight because you know that you are a lower level.
C) Causing trouble because you know that all your friends are online and the other person's isn't.
D) Trying to tear other faith members down, eager to report a misdeed in the faith, instead of trying to help.
E) Faith members not supporting each other.

These do not do the problem justice, but the problem exists: People are jealous or something of other characters succeeding.

Anyone have any opinions? Or is this too ambiguous?

{EDIT: Sorry, but that Cyan was way too hard to see ;) Kelemvor}
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Post by Brar » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:36 am

About the fighting problem, I remember the imms (don't remember which one) did a very big pkill lesson years ago. Explaining how to do fights between players without typing murder ever. Just rp the fight out.
There is no need to use skills or whatever code. Use common sense and fairness and then it's a lot funnier than just yping murder in any combat mode. Of course, this need people to be fair and accepting to lose.
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Post by Eltsac » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:19 am

A) Fighting people because you know that you are a higher level.
B) Running from a fight because you know that you are a lower level.
As Brar says, for the PC <> PC fights, the level doesn't count much to me, it's more about rp, and the fight comes because it's the consequence of a larger rp and there is no other rp means to deal with the situation. And it should never be a mean to show i'm stronger or take other's gear.
Now if i wander around with a rusty sword and see a man in full plate in front of me, i will flee icly ;)
C) Causing trouble because you know that all your friends are online and the other person's isn't.
That is to me some OOC information abuse that should be reported.
D) Trying to tear other faith members down, eager to report a misdeed in the faith, instead of trying to help.
E) Faith members not supporting each other.
i know i have been away for a while but i have never met such situation in game, rather the opposite...
Are there a lot of situations like this?
I think this problem could be handled ICly as such behavior is not acceptable for most faith, the involved character could be demoted and lose favor from his god.

Just an idea...

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Re: competitiveness

Post by Ceara » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:49 am

While RP fighting is all well and good, and I have not seen much of it on FK so I don't know how well it is handled here but many people suddenly think they are a god while rp fighting and do things that their character simply wouldn't be able to do. This is why I prefer code fighting. I have seen that happen time and again elsewhere.
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Post by Tortus » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:10 pm

A good way of preventing these god fantasies is to use killmode nofight or killmode spar for battles.

While allowing the involved to take turns, it also gives a certain idea of who's winning.
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Post by Lathlain » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:12 pm

Heavens... I'd better stop ordering my hopefuls to backstab each other for favour then!

I've personally never had anything against losing. Just as well really, 'cos I do it a lot! I've been known to challenge characters I know are level 40+ while being less than 25 myself, as it's totally in character to do so
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Post by Duranamir » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:16 pm

It maybe just the people that i have ended up in conflict with but i have never really had any problems with over competivness from other players. In fact in all cases i can remember even when the situation has ended up in combat it has been RP'd out in a good natured way and the combat has basically been by mutual consent.

In general i agree with Lathains points. I too have had characters who have challenged people that i know to be higher level because it was IC to do so (He lost of course but with honour).

I have also walked away from challenges where i know i could render the challenger down into a small greasy spot :evil: but it was not IC to act in that way.

In general i find the PK options quite well balanced and if used responsibly they can be used to make any IC conflict both fun and also quite frightening as you never truly know what the other PC is capable of of until they show you (often very painfully).

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Post by Kelemvor » Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:01 pm

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

On Pkills: For myself, I expect players to reach a clear accord OOCly prior to any pkill situation. I loathe the recriminations and complaints that follow badly played out Pkills.

I've said this many times to people in one on one discussions, in PMs and in posts... but if you roleplay consistently and considerately there will be no reason for anyone to complain later.

On competitiveness: For the most part, we have a quite young playerbase. The desire to compete and to be the best is perfectly natural. Perhaps culturally too, the make-up of the player base leans towards ambition and a desire to see feel and test everything now.

In general: So long as folks remember that this is a game and that they are likely to be judged quite heavily on how they behave I think we can all get along fine.

The next time you are tempted to do something spiteful or petty to another player just think how you'd feel if it were done to you.
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it tolls for thee.
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Post by Zach » Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:21 pm

Kelemvor wrote:The next time you are tempted to do something spiteful or petty to another player just think how you'd feel if it were done to you.
Bravo!
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Post by Coralie » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:08 pm

Theillik Posted,
D) Trying to tear other faith members down, eager to report a misdeed in the faith, instead of trying to help.
E) Faith members not supporting each other.
Not that I have seen this at all, actully I have yet to see such aside from some of the evil chars, which is in their nature. However in my opinon, if this is happening you should speak to the faith manager first, they should be able to handle it, their there to help. :wink: If there is not one, then try to solve the situation Icly the best way possible, as Eltsac said.

Kelemvor summed it up, all so nicely. :)
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Post by Mele » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:14 pm

IMO:

The success of your characters are what -you- make of it. Let's face it. The world is not sunshine and happiness. Not every single character is going to like your character. Ten dollars says those same people playing those character have an alternative character who gets along just fine with the character. Just like in real life you have to roll with the punches. What do you do if your house is robbed? Say it's not right or fair because that person was 10 years older than you? What do you do in high school, if a bully is randomly eating at you?

What really bothers me is people assume so often that people are doing things ICly to them for OOC reasons. I mean, heck, sometimes I feel that way to. But even if they are, the bottom line is, it happened IC. You deal with it IC. Handling it maturely and ICly is what is going to help your character advance in the FK world. Dealing with the what is thrown at you. If you always play your character true to how your character should be that is where your success will come from.

RP will not always go in favor of your characters. But you deal. We shouldn't have to behave like everyone is made of glass. "So n so may be upset if I RP my character is angry and wants to stab his face, so I better not do that." Doesn't that seem like sacrificing your character? It's a game. Items are items. If you're stressing on losing them then that is a deeper problem.

Maybe people are jealous of people succeeding. But even more so, people are jealous of what people already have. The grass is always greener. These things we should not be concerning ourselves with, we should he roleplaying our characters because that is why we come here.

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Post by Lathander » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:33 pm

The world is not sunshine and happiness.
What!?! I'm out of a job! :?
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Post by Zach » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:38 am

Lathander wrote:
The world is not sunshine and happiness.
What!?! I'm out of a job! :?
No... not that you are out of a job... just means you are not DOING your job... so... lets see some more work!
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Post by Gregal » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:23 pm

Personally I love to compete, and I would love to see people compete more often, not in who can get the strongest player by twinking, but who can rp out of the way. I know personally whenever I played Sephany, I know Miriel's player wouldn't have a problem either with me saying this, but we had many scenes where Sephany had the misluck of the draw and I could have died easily, but because I knew ICly I couldn't outrun a flying mage launching missiles at me...I knew I had what was coming to me. I loved those scenes though, they developed the character. And put plot between me and another Character. Which is why I do the things icly to create plot, and as well to roleplay out a character. Yes I know I may end up getting in a situation, but that is the glory of it...thinking of a way to get out of it ICly and reap the rewards!
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Post by Shabanna » Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:15 pm

Just want to take a moment to remind everyone in all this ...
that this is a LIMITED PKill MUD. It seems to me that we might be losing track of that in all this. Please remember...that there are players on this MUD who do not want to be attacked by other players. SO... I would say...maybe those of you who enjoy Pkilling ( for whatever that reason is) might want to keep that in mind when you choose your victims. :P

I know I have been *code* attacked on several of my characters... with little RP or provocation. But I have also been attacked with a smote... which is equally annoying when I do not wish to participate in a PKill.

Normally, I prefer not to enter into Pkill at all... though I have made exceptions where I felt it was a player I could trust to obey the Pkill rules and ... when there was a great deal of prior RP ( like... on-going/ Running ,mutliple occasion RP leading up to it.) It irks me when some P-kill happy player runs in does 3 lines of RP and smotes and attack so there is no *murder log* created >.< yet I am forced into a Pkill situation. IMHO....smoting an attack does not make it more acceptable or more correct to people who do not like PKill.

I think...It becomes quickly apparent when a PC likes to Pkill alot... and I think.... that ruins RP opportunity... cause some will avoid RP when they have to wonder everytime they play with you, if you are going to go postal on them and behave unpredictably. :roll:

Anyway...really, I just wanted to interject that PKilling is not really supposed to be the focus of this MUD.

okay that is my 2 cents. *runs and hides*

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Post by Zach » Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:26 pm

You are quite right bananna, but... one can avoide a PK situation, when two people who know how to RP correctly. (i am NOT saying some people do not know how to... it's just sometimes... two people's RP just clicks, and everything works perfectly with timing and everything... you get really into the RP sometimes and can just perdect what they are going to do.. like chess)...

I have been PKed 2 times... both by the same player... and both times... i laughed my but off because the RP was sooooooo good... BUT... that was 2 times out of 4 years of playing...

I have been smoted to be knocked unconscious a few times and once... dies, and was brought back to life... all without a single codded attack.... and come to think of it.. it is more exciting when it is RPed out...
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Post by Lathander » Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:15 pm

Folks, we have coded attacks for a reason on the mud. There should be smotes and rp during pkills to add reason, flavor etc. The code should not replace rp; HOWEVER, the code exists and it must be used in those instances. Rping a fight so that murder logs don't happen is not acceptable. If anyone feels forced into an rp pkill not supported by code feel free to ignore the imaginary damage. Go ahead, try smote-only attack on an aggro mob dragon, see what happens. :)
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Post by Zach » Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:32 pm

but presently, you can't drag someone who is stunned... so you would have to smote stunning them... but I get your point... the logs are there for reason...
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Post by Lerytha » Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:45 pm

One thing I would say is this: trust people.

Sephany's player mentioned our roleplay together, with myself as Miriel. Whilst the constant battle was probably annoying to her, I tried to conduct myself ICly. Sometimes I would get the upper hand, sometimes she would. But because I trusted her player not to always codekill, I could roleplay with her without fear. Now, I do not mean to say that I would not have hunted her down ICly had I been OOCly afraid of dying - not that. I am prepared for my character to die. But when you find a RP partner who knows how you prefer to do PK, then everything flows. We had a few moments, where we paused, and one of us would ask: "Erm... can you do that?" The other (either one of us) would say, "Oh, actually thinking on it, probably not."

There are a few times when I haven't said anything about what I see as OOC slips in PK rule, because the RP is still good. e.g, the rule about five rooms away. Sometimes, I know someone who has come to harm me has been more than five rooms away, but do not say anything because I would rather the RP - however... I play almost exclusively goods. I understand that the five-room-away thing is important to protect people from being mobbed, so I am not knocking anyone for checking about the five-room thing.

So, my main point here? Trust. If you trust the player to type in the correct killmode, and not doing the usual, "Oh, god, sorry, had killmode kill on accidentally." then you can RP with more flexibility. Personally, I hate code death, but if in the two seconds before combat, when you decide what mode to go in, they say "I think this should be code death" I am fine with it. As long as it is RPed properly, and makes sense. For example, if it was to be code death, I would make sure that it happened in spar, so my wizard could take into account the fact that she is flying, and the lowly fighter that could kill me within seconds on the ground, is not.

Is that power-gaming? I would say not. If I was a fighter, and a mage was flying (it has happened, in my sporadic flirtations away from wizard characters), then I understand that I get what is coming to me. I trust the other players to RP rightly, and to understand the IC situation. Occasionally, that trust is misplaced, and that has happened to me twice, in perhaps three years of playing. That has never in my case been followed by my making a complaint to the imms, but rather a brief otell saying, "What?!" and then after that initial anger at something that was completely ridiculous, reasoned with the person and yes, gone back to RP with them again.

(Unfair in this case being lack of RP before the death, or use of summoning spells without warning, or something I see as ICly possible, but OOCly pushing that limit to extremes - give someone a chance to RP, that's my motto. A wizard flying about a fighter, raining death can be roleplayed well from the fighter's perspective. A wizard summoning in monsters and then typing "order wyvern w" does not allow a fighter any form of roleplay, other than dying)

So, after this rather long and disjointed discussion on PK and RP, I should probably link it to competetiveness. I think most of the competetiveness outlined above comes from the ease in which we die during PK. I know that OOCly, it really irks me that some wizards, who know what to type and when, can go into really dangerous areas on their own, killing things with ease, whereas my wizard nearly dies from a low-level mob. But I keep that OOC - competetiveness, yes, but why should it bother my character? The same goes for when I see one of my ranger comrades with a new piece of nature-like armour, which would look REALLY good on my character, and I think: why don't -I- have that? But again, it stays OOC (this is me being VERY honest, by the way - again, showing TRUST... like my link, there? ;) )

I say competetiveness is fine, to a certain extent: it is a game, and games are so fun for the main reason of advancing your character, and watching them grow. The competition comes from seeing others grow, and then moving your character against a character of opposing views and fighting (crude simplification of RP, I'll admit). It's only when OOC competition that I outlined above turns nasty, and affects you IC. Let me give an example (which has no basis in fact):

Miriel is REALLY jealous of a certain ranger, because they are higher in her faith than her, and OOCly her player thinks that why isn't he that high? That's not fair, I've been on for three years! Count them and see, three entire years! So OOCly, the player starts making IC investigations into his character's faith brother/sister, and FINALLY uncovers something which is not nice about them, reporting them to their faith manager (with some OOC glee, whilst being ICly very, very sad), and watching them get demoted.

That is competetiveness. But very, very, very bad competetiveness. It stems from OOC jealousy, and has not basic in IC fact. Why would Miriel have suddenly become suspicious of random faith member? Any reason? No. It's unfair, and horrible.

However... if Miriel was to walk into a room, and happen to see a drow in conversation with one of her faith brothers, and then decided to watch that person, and then realised that that person was secretly worshipping Lloth, then whether or not they are higher than me in rank, whether or not there is some chance I could be jealous of them OOCly, by the gods I am telling my faith manager and having them demoted, and hopefully killed. In that case, IC actions are not led by competetiveness and so are in this case good.

To finish a long post for which I am eternally sorry - I doubt many will read it all ;) - competetiveness not neccessarily bad. Competetiveness is what makes us log on to FK, at the basic route. Letting that competetiveness influence your character in ways that character would not logically act (btw, as long as YOU know your character would act in that way, it doesn't matter what other people think - within reason) however, is imho, a bigbig nono.

Hope something in that makes sense, because I'm not sure I said what I meant to say when I first read this post. I kind of just... dribbled on and on.

~Ol

PS: I used the example of my character in this. Any example of her doing any specific things in character, such as faith brothers and drow, are not based on any RP, on any players, or on any events that have happened. They were created to put the issue of competetiveness into context. Examples of me -really- -really- wanting a ranger's new piece of equipment however are, regrettably, true. I hate to see better-dressed characters than me. ;) Examples of my being jealous of faith members who are higher rank than me are most definitely not true - they've earned it. :)
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Post by Brar » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:03 pm

Lathander wrote:Folks, we have coded attacks for a reason on the mud. There should be smotes and rp during pkills to add reason, flavor etc. The code should not replace rp; HOWEVER, the code exists and it must be used in those instances. Rping a fight so that murder logs don't happen is not acceptable. If anyone feels forced into an rp pkill not supported by code feel free to ignore the imaginary damage. Go ahead, try smote-only attack on an aggro mob dragon, see what happens. :)
There is something I don't understand, you mean we are forced to use the code commands?
I mean, this way it goes back to 'the player who can (as in have the real life possibility) play the most time wins' or 'the twinks always wins over the rper'.
I always thought that it was the kind of thing to try to avoid. Because ICly, depending on rp, a level 10 character who is high priest with a lot of hours playing rp instead of bashing mob would be far more powerful than the level 50 twink who began a week ago.

Of course, that example is extreme, but I think you got my point.
The few pkill I happened to participate in were always rp from start to bottom as at this time we did not had the killmode options. I only did it once with killmode nofight, and I did not like it so never tried to reiterate it since then as my character was overpowerful compared to the other when ICly it should have been the other way.

Just a thought,
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