Lloth Worship

[Solaghar]

I am going to post a lot of information on Lloth here from various Forgotten Realms sourcebooks relating to the Drow. The purpose in this is to clear up some misconceptions about Lloth which many people seem to hold. The first group of information comes from the Drow of the Underdark, which was the original Drow sourcebook from 2nd edition D&D and early in Forgotten Realms, where the Drow first became popular. It's about 15 years old. My next few posts will consist of more information on Lloth and her priesthood from my other sourcebooks.

Drow of the Underdark - The Underdark sourcebook

Lolth is a cruel, capricious goddess, thought by many to be insane. She delights in setting her worshippers at each other's throats so that the strongest, most devious and cruel will survive to serve her. Lolth roams the realms often, appearing in answer to the rituals of drow priestesses; and working whatever harm she can to the enemies of drow. She secretly wants to be worshipped by humans and elves of the surface realms and sometimes journeys among their communities, whispering of the power Lolth can bring.

Roleplaying Notes: Lolth is malicious in her dealings, and coldly vicious in a fight. She enjoys causing death, destruction and painful torture. Even more, Lolth enjoys corrupting elves and humans to her service. Lolth can appear kind, rendering aid to those she fancies - but she really only cares for herself; her favor and aid can never be relied on.

Aims, Credo and Ethos: All drow who do not worship Lolth are to be converted or destroyed. All weak and rebellious drow are to be weeded out. All who impugn the faith must perish. Males who act independently of Lolth's dictates (and those of her priestesses) are to be sacrificed to Lolth. Those "faithful" whose loyalty is weak must be eliminated.

Children are to be raised as loyal worshippers of Lolth - and let each family produce at least one priestess who will serve the Spider Queen better than her parents. Such are the commands of Lolth - but the priestess who follows them blindly is on a slippery path leading to swift death. Success in the service of Lolth lies with those who are attentive to the ever-changing, often contradictory will of Lolth.

Customs, Rules and Taboos: Lolth's capricious nature makes rules few, and uncertainty great. Of course, questioning Lolth's motives or wisdom is a sin. Aiding non-drow against drow is a great sin, as is ignoring the Spider Queen's commands in favor of love (Lolth often tests her priestesses, by ordering the sacrifice of a favored male consort). There are male priests of Lolth, but the Spider Queen rarely allows them to rise above 7th level of experience.

Drow who lose the favor of Lolth are always given a single chance - usually a dangerous or difficult mission, though Lolth may test certain individuals by setting no task at all, and observing what they do - to redeem themselves. Those who willfully fail are destroyed; Lolth commands other worshippers to do this (in turn, testing them). Those who fail through mischance or poor planning or execution are usually transformed into driders.

Lolth often plays favorites among her drow worshippers - but those who ride high one season are warned that Lolth can turn her dark face upon them without warning - and undoubtedly will, sometime soon.

[Solaghar]

Races of Faerun

Of the varous Elven subraces, none are more notorius than the drow. Descended from the original dark-skinned elven subrace called the Ssri-tel-quessir, the drow were cursed into their present appearance by the good elven deities for following the goddess Lolth down the path to evil and corruption.

Though divided by endless feuds and schisms, the drow are united in one terrible desire; they seethe with a hatred for the surface elves. By their way of reckoning, they proved themselves the superior race in the Fourth Crown War, and the fact that the Seldarine (and Corellon in particular) punished them for their success is a poison that churns in their hearts and minds eternally. They burn with hatred for the Seldarine and their coddled children, and want nothing more than to return to the surface and bring to the elves there suffering a thousand times greater than that which the drow have been forced to endure over the past ten thousand years.

History: Recently, the drow have begun to extend their influence to the surface in greater numbers than ever before, moving into abandoned elven cities and homes. They have begun training and conditioning to allow them to function in the brilliant surface world. Much to their surprise and delight, they have found that due to the Elven Retreat the presence of surface elves is much smaller and more poorly organized than they anticipated.



* I am super sleepy and need to take a nap for a while. But I have information from numerous other sourcebooks I'd like to bring to bear here as well as from various books written about the Drow. I want people to gain a far more detailed idea of what worshipping Lolth is about, especially what it means for those who do not follow the traditional route to do so, as a Drow priestess, to determine how those people might fit into the way things work while still being true to Lolth's desires and intentions for her priesthood.

[Dalvyn]

History: Recently, the drow have begun to extend their influence to the surface in greater numbers than ever before, moving into abandoned elven cities and homes. They have begun training and conditioning to allow them to function in the brilliant surface world. Much to their surprise and delight, they have found that due to the Elven Retreat the presence of surface elves is much smaller and more poorly organized than they anticipated.[/i]

All this is to be taken with a dire-bear-sized grain of salt.

On Forgotten Kingdoms, we do not match exactly the evolution and standards of the Forgotten Realms, just like any DM can choose to use only the parts that interest him and discard or change the other parts.

Obvious examples of this are:
- We have high priests and heroes who are not part of the official FR.
- Our cities and areas are often close to the maps provided in FR books, but do not match them 100% (think Waterdeep, Undermountain, Zhentil Keep, Daggerford, ...)
- We have several areas that do not belong at all to the official FR lore.
- Bane and Waukeen are not (yet) here. Azoun is still alive.
- We also have rules that are not used in the official FR. The most blatant example of it is the fact that we have no good, Drizzt-like drow, and that there is no way for drow to reach the surface.

The imms are not ignorant on the subject of drow. They make decisions based on playability and other factors as well as official FR doctrine and deviate where they deem it appropriate.

As far as drow are concerned, they are separated from the surface because the interactions that drow would ICly have with surface dwellers (village raids, slave catching, ...) are not the kind of interactions we currently want to focus on.

Now, general information is always welcome and helpful, and quoting passages from official books with that goal in mind is welcome. The quoted passages still refer only to what could be called "Official Forgotten Realms" and only to those though.

[Solaghar]

Well I completely understand that, my desire to flesh this out and remove any of these inconsistencies within the doctrine of Lolth and how players are expected to put it into place in the game is the only thing this is based on. If the game is going to deviate in big ways from the game it's nice that they're spelled out.

This brings me to some of the things that have been told to me regarding what I do as a priestess of Lolth which I do not truly agree with. While I understand that in the end that this is indeed your game and you guys obviously have the final say in any of the rules, I am tired of being told contradictory things from different admins due to one having one idea of how things are, another having another idea, and a third an entirely different idea.

No one that I have ever met and engaged in real RP with has ever told me that I play a poor Priestess of Lolth. I take a lot of pride when my character engages in roleplay which helps others to understand the way a Lolth-worshipper who isn't entirely traditional yet still tries to subscribe to Lolth's creed can act. Being evil on FK is not always easy. The whole good versus evil idea that seems to reign is fairly flawed, since evil people are just as likely to dislike one another as they are good people, if not more so because good people aren't trying to compete with them directly. But I have never been one to be friendly with everyone, and I've had my share of conflicts with good and evil characters.

When my priestess of Lolth was young and weak, she was much less confrontational, far more willing to play nice, and to work with others for things she didn't care about to secure her safety and any help she needed to do anything she wanted. Once she gained enough power that she felt fairly safe on her own and able to defend herself, a lot of that went away. There was no more flirting. There was no more sucking up to anyone who was bigger than her. As she has gained allies who will support her against her more immediate enemies, she has not changed, but merely shown more of her true colors, which happen to be much more evil.

While we may look at Lolth's behavior and deem it insane, there is a method to that madness if one looks closer. Especially after the Time of Troubles when Ao connected the power of a God to the number of their followers, it has become contingent upon Gods to seek out new followers and not to alienate or ignore their current followers in the ways that deities were seen to have done prior to the ToT. Lolth is no different in this way than Cyric, or Talos, or Lathander of Torm. In fact it is silly to look upon 'racial' deities as being different from 'regular deities' because the regular deities ARE racial deities, for the human race, and even then only over a particular area of Faerun.

Lolth has every interest in not only expanding her worship out of the Underdark after having been banished there, but to send out those who will actively build her worship there, especially amongst corrupt Elves who have turned away from the Seldarine, and others who she can use as pawns in her machinations. This does not mean the Drow are not still her favored race, but she would never turn away another follower who could increase her power and fight for her against her enemies.

So let me go over some of the things I've been variously told at varying times which seem to me to be contradictory to either the spirit of the game or things that I've alternately been told...

* You are too friendly with others for a Priestess of Lolth - This is a problem that could be applied to nearly any evil person in the game if one had any interest in doing so. By friendly I assume they mean that we don't get into fights and kill each other constantly, because that seems to be about the extent of most of our friendliness. Everytime a Cyricist works with a follower of another God they're betraying Cyric by acknowledging the possibility that those other Gods may have some power. Lolth occasionally allies herself with Loviatar and Malar in terms of the power of deities, which could easily be translated into 'the enemies of my enemies are my friends' type attitude.

FK is not FR, as has been said. It is a game, where one adventures with other people to have fun and interact and roleplay. If someone wanted to play a game where they could play their Priest of Cyric in the real sense of a Priest of Cyric, as a fairly crazed person completely at ease with murder and terrorizing people less powerful, they could play a game like Baldur's Gate and not have to worry about bothering others. But we don't want to play a game all by ourselves, so we have to limit ourselves in the actions that we take. I do not torture and murder every Elf that passes by me alone even though that would be a perfectly legitimate thing for a Priestess of Lolth to do. I do not sacrifice every weak-looking young person who calls me a wench and Lolth a demon whore, even though it would be perfectly reasonable for me to do so in the sens of being a Priestess of Lolth.

Those sorts of actions would not be fun for either party and would be detrimental to the game as a whole, and that's why you have rules designed against that. But if you're mandating that people be friendlier with each other than they would otherwise have to be, how can one logically argue that one isn't playing one's character properly by doing nothing more than associating with others? Every person who has played an evil character here has had to balance this dilemma to an extent, those with a chaotic nature have a harder time than those with a lawful or neutral who can justify it as not being safe or profitable, but it still exists.

* You should be spending much more time in the Underdark - This is in effect, an admonition to spend time in the Underdark idling, because that is what one does in the Underdark for the vast majority of the time. One is then told that this is merely the consequence of choosing such a character. I'm sorry but the 900 kismet cost wasn't enough? We then have to be punished for choosing a character we're interested in playing which is an option given by being forced to idle in the Underdark? I was given a specific ratio of about 10% of the time on the surface to 90% of the time in the Underdark. Am I (or any other player of a halfdrow) expected to legitimately keep track of how many hours I spend sitting in Skull Square twiddling my thumbs waiting for a chance to go up to the surface to interact with other players up there and do things that are the least bit interesting? I have far better things to do with my time than spend them attaining some imaginary ticket to the surface by idling in the Underdark. How actively do I have to idle down there? Is it alright to just sit down or shall I wander around at random through the shops in Skullport? To have someone say something like, "You should spend 90% of your time in the Underdark" and then leave it at that simply makes no sense to me. Why would people need to be punished for choosing characters that your game allows to be created to make them fit into an archetype which has never been established either in Forgotten Realms own canon (that of a halfdrow who are by no means a particularly subterranean race and are just as likely to live on the surface as the results of Drow raids). In fact I will now post the half-drow entry on Races of Faerun.

[Solaghar]

Half-Drow from Races of Faerun (with most of the stuff regarding Dambrathen half-drow cut out as it doesn't apply to us)

In most lands, half-drow are rare. Since so many drow are irredeemably evil, they only mate with humans by way of rape or slavery. The only exception are the half-drow of the land of Dambrath in the Shining South, who arise from the centuries-old drow subjugation of the human folk of that land.

Half-drow have dusky skin, silver or white hair, and a broad range of eye colors. They are often just as dark-hearted as their elven parents, but with a bitter resentment that comes from knowing that they are second-class members of drow society. In human society, half-drow are distrusted nearly as much as their full-blooded cousins. Despite this, good half-drow are much less rare than good drow. Whether this has to do with the influence of their human blood, or the desire to rebel against the drow who treat them so poorly, is difficult to tell.

Many half-drow become adventurers to escape the bigotry they face in just about every community outside Dambrath. Unlike the caste-driven society their drow forebears come from, half-drow show all the adaptability of other half-elves. Outside Dambrath, many half-drow are solitary souls, preferring to keep their own counsel than sully themselves with the opinions of others. Other times, they band together into a self-important group, often bullying those they feel they can intimidate.

As far as I am aware, this is the only truly detailed information on half-drow available in the Forgotten Realms canon, but the fact of the matter is that half-drow who aren't part of this realm of Dambrath which doesn't exist in FK are the product of strange births, accepted by neither human nor drow society and being forced, like half-elves of the more standard variety, into a non-traditional role to suit their life upo until they became adventurers. There is no standard half-drow anymore than there is a standard half-elf except that it's someone who has led a srange life and probably not found widespread acceptance, as well as the prejudice that comes from being one of drow blood.

[Solaghar]

Now, I know that Dalvyn for one dislikes the Underdark and Underdark races and finds that their roleplay and even their existance is nothing more than a detriment to the game which takes away from people who could be playing characters which might otherwise interact more easily with other surfacers. And I suspect this is what lies at the heart of the disconnect and double-standard which exists for Underdark-dwellers.

A sun elf most likely never leaves Evermeet. They do not adventure and they do not associate with those races they consider lesser beings. They feel that other races of elves are incorrect in their versions of worship of Corellon Larethian himself, who they feel set them apart as special from other elves and cares more for them than subraces such as moon elves or wild elves. But there is never any statement that I've heard that sun elf rangers are ridiculous, that people treat sun elves like nothing more than blonde-haired, purple-eyed moon elves, or are anything other than slightly more haughty versions of normal elves, if they're even played as that. Sun elves would almost never become rangers, nor truck with humans. They consider half-elves to be abominations who are bringing about the destruction of the elven race through impurity of elven blood. These aren't just my opinions on sun elves, this stuff comes from the sourcebooks. Why do I mention this? Because there is a complete double-standard in relation to the treatment that other races receive and those Underdark races receive.

There is no reason that the roleplay restrictions, the kismet requirements and the expectations from a sun elf should be any less stringent than those afforded to a drow, yet that is clearly the case. The drow are restricted in ways that no other races are due to the idea that if they were allowed more freedom then 'Something Bad' would happen, though that something bad is a canard since for the most part it was defined as 'A bunch of Drizzts running around the surface' which has never even been a possibility so long as I've been on this game since drow have never been allowed to have good alignments for at least the three years I have played one and probably a good bit longer.

Other reasons are then trotted out, that the expectations one has of the drow are so high that to allow people to meet with them often would lessen their impact and turn them into 'pointy eared evil humans' in much the same way that other races have their uniqueness lessed as their popularity increases and they're taken up by less-experienced roleplayers. But again this is a double standard. The same stringent roleplaying demands are not made of the sun elves who should have just as strict a measure placed upon them as drow. Nor is it made of any other race of which I'm aware, although it now seems to be applied to half-drow as equivalents of drow for some inexplicable reason, that these half-drow would love to spend their lives in the underdark where the drow reign supreme and they're assuredly second-class citizens rather than on the surface where it's far easier to carve a niche out for themselves.

I am not calling for drow to be let onto the surface or anything like that. I am merely asking why it is that this double-standard is held because it does not seem to be for a logically explicable reason. The drow and by extension the halfdrow simply seem to be held to a higher standard than others simply because that's how things are done, or to deliberately steer people away from playing these characters. I have no problem with the prohibitive kismet requirements on these races, I agree they should be rare and they should have extremely high standards of roleplay, but I also think that everyone should have very high standards of roleplay and that if your sun elf or mountain dwarf or pretty much anything besides a human or a half-elf is simply played as a human with an accent or a touch of arrogance then you're not doing it right.

The key to this is that these characters are made available. There is nothing in the help halfdrow file that says, "halfdrow should stay in the Underdark most of the time" nor is it in any way an obvious thing that one would expect for any logical reason. Why? Dwarves should stay in mithril hall 90% of the time then, as they're a particularly conservative race not particularly beholden to randomly wandering around the world. Sun elves similarly should stick to the cities of stone and magic where they obviously prefer to be. A Priest of Malar should never enter into a city and should constantly hunt druids. The disconnect for me comes from when you move from recognizin that certain races and character types are more likely to act in a certain way, and merely mandating that every character be a stereotype that fits a completely two-dimensional stereotype of that race which is not widely held to begin with and is not documented or mentioned when someone begins playing one of these races.

Every single character on this game is an adventurer. We are not the people who chose to stay at home and have the traditional careers. We are ALL somewhat different, that is what an adventurer is. If we weren't, we would be the NPC in the temple who people come to to get healed from rather than a wandering priest, or the warrior who guards a doorway to some castle rather than a roving adventurer. The reason that we choose races and classes and hometowns is because we understand and appreciate these aspects of our characters, that we want to work within the framework that they provide. But that is what they are, a framework, something to be worked within, but not the same as a series of binding, restrictive chains which allow one only the most minute movement away from pure stereotypes.

Evils suffer from this so much more than goods simply because much more is expected of us and much of it is contradictory by nature. Cyric is the God of murder, of random unnecessary chaos and death. But such a homocidal character would be ruinous for the game and obviously isn't allowed. So one must ensure that one's interpretation of Cyricist doctrine meshes with the way this game works. And that is what they tend to do. With Lloth worship, the opposite is true. no one gets mad at Cyricists for not being murderous enough. No one gets mad at Malarites for not constantly hunting down every Elf that they see. But Lolth worshippers, it's fine to tell them they need to be *more* antisocial, that they need to RP in groups *less* unless it's in groups of people who are exactly like them. RPing with groups of people exactly like you is extremely dull for the simple fact that there is no conflict, no disagreement, no question of what is perhaps right or wrong. The analogy to what the Underdark is like would be if every Paladin of Tyr had to spend 90% of their time in a temple of Tyr only roleplaying with other paladins of Tyr. Alright, great. You talk for a little while about how great justice is, that is nice. You like his wolf-hands, sure, me too. Do you know the story of how he lost his eye? Oh? Yeah, you heard that one before... oh... oh well. The difference is that the drow and now apparently the halfdrow are told that this is merely the consequence (read punishment) for choosing their unorthodox character, though I have to say that I have only ever heard this opinion and dislike of Underdark characters put forth by Dalvyn himself and I would be quite interested to hear the opinions of other administrators on the subject to get a different viewpoint of why people like me apparently are detrimental to the game.

I do not think I am detrimental to the game, nor the characters I play. I think that they help the game. I think that without well-played evil characters, there would be far less for good people to do in this game. There are many different kinds of evil. I try to be an obvious evil which actually brings people together to combat. I openly torture people (only with their permission, which is very fun RP for both parties). I try to be the face of evil that many do not want to be, quite clearly malevolent, capricious, intent upon causing chaos, willing to go to great lengths to cause psychological pain and trauma to those whose beliefs are contrary to her own. To turn friend against friend and brother against brother and all of that corny stuff. Because this is fun for me. And I hope that it's fun for good people to oppose in some way. I have noticed that there has been a gathering of people specifically opposed to open evil and I am glad that they have done so, and I hope they continue to do so.

This has turned into a lengthy diatribe that has gone off into numerous tangents, but I hope whoever took the time to read it isn't off-put by it, it's not meant in an antagonistic sense. I know that in the end it's not my game and that I have no say over what happens here, what the administrators policies are regarding certain people or races, or anything else. But I do have my thoughts and beliefs about certain matters and I have no hesitation to share them, because I'm not ashamed of them in any way.

What I see is in essence, a fair deal of a double-standard relating to drow and now apparently, half-drow regarding how they should be acting. I had come to accept the drow restrictions which was why I had switched in general, away from my drow character altogether even though if I had the chance to play him in a meaningful way I would jump at it. But the underdark is never going to be more than a fairly dull place to waste time where one sits around hoping for the occasional visitor to take pity upon us and RP, and I don't see too many people who are looking to waste their time in such a way. I spent more than 1100 hours doing it, longer than a great deal of other major drow characters put together. There is a very specific reason that people eventually stop playing their drow and never come back, and it's not because the roleplay in the underdark isn't good. Now i'm being told that my halfdrow needs to stay in the Underdark 90% of her time to fit in with Dalvyn's idea of what is reasonable for her based on what I would imagine is either a completely arbitrary belief that halfdrow = lives in the ground or just a personal dislike of such characters but not other evil characters. I would like this expounded upon if he is willing. I can't tell anyone what to do but I can hope that this whole group of posts would at least persuade someone to rethink a given matter based on evidence and arguments, like any other intelligent open-minded person raised in the western tradition of thought would be.

[Dalvyn]

* You are too friendly with others for a Priestess of Lolth

A priestess of Lolth, or any evil character, can for sure be friendly. They too need allies, or need to convince others to help them because "they are nice chaps", that is not the point, and it has never been the point. There's no such thing as "being too friendly" when there's a goal in mind.

For example, it's perfectly fine for a priestess of Beshaba or Shar or any other evil deity to be all friendly and charming, to be better able to learn of other people's weaknesses, to manipulate them and pit them against each other, to trick them, or use them, or whatever else. It's even fine for them to be friendly with no set goal in mind, just to make sure that they can later ask for a favour or service from those they have been friendly to, or just because they want some company.

What is not fine though is for a follower of Lolth to do nothing but be friendly and acquire allies on the surface. For what goal? For what grand scheme? As noted above, drow and thus all things Lolth-related are confined to the Underdark and some specific locales where they can meet up with surface dwellers, mainly for the reason that the only IC interaction between drow and surface dwellers would be to surface raids and similar situations that are not considered currently as being desirable on FK.

Now, if all things drow- and Lolth-related are confined to the Underdark, why would a priestess of Lolth devote all her time to making allies on the surface? That might make sense in official Forgotten Realms, where drow might want regular allies for recurrent raids, or for trades, or to attack elven encampments, and so on. But we do not have any of those on FK. So spending all one's time being friendly and making allies for nothing is what is inconsistent in the world of FK, not just being friendly with others.

To me, it's similar to a worshiper of Silvanus spending all his time in a city making friends with city-dwellers because that's where all the action is, or a worshiper of Sune spending all his time in a dungeon complex inhabited by golems or other creatures with no feelings.

* You should be spending much more time in the Underdark - This is in effect, an admonition to spend time in the Underdark idling, because that is what one does in the Underdark for the vast majority of the time.

Every choice implies restrictions.

If I make an evil character, I won't be able to do the good quest in the temple of Waterdeep and get the glory reward and a set of enchanted leggings.

If I make a water genasi, I shouldn't (even though the code would let me) help the worshipers of Kossuth (god of fire) in their temple, because they sure wouldn't trust a water genasi to help them against the followers of Istishia (goddess of water).

If I make a wemic, I shouldn't (even though the code would let me) go rescue Mistress Thann because I wouldn't fit in goblin-sized tunnels and I wouldn't be able to reach that trainer in his tree house because I can't climb ladders.

Similarly, if I make a follower of Lolth on FK, I shouldn't spend all my time on the surface, because all things drow- and Lolth-related are limited to the Underdark and Skullport mostly. Yes, that means mostly idling in the Underdark currently; and so does making a drow. I have always made it clear that I consider the drow option to not be viable, and I'm all ready to just remove it and even give back the kismet spent.

That's the logical limitation on FK for worshipers of Lolth. And yes, it's not fun to spend all one's time down there. Just like it's not fun to not be able to climb trees or ladders, or do some quests.

One is then told that this is merely the consequence of choosing such a character. I'm sorry but the 900 kismet cost wasn't enough?

You are mixing up things. The 900 kismet cost was for a half-drow, not for a follower of Lolth. A half-drow following another deity, which would have good reasons to be on the surface and make friends there and so on, would be perfectly fine. All this is more about the faith than the race.

Why would people need to be punished for choosing characters that your game allows to be created ...

I agree with you on that part: the game shouldn't allow it, because it's indeed more or less a waste of kismet. The drow and Lolth options should be removed.

... to make them fit into an archetype which has never been established either in Forgotten Realms own canon (that of a halfdrow who are by no means a particularly subterranean race and are just as likely to live on the surface as the results of Drow raids).

Once again, I have 0 problem with half-drow on the surface (well, as long as half-drow remain quite rare). The problem is with a worshiper of Lolth on the surface in FK.

And I'm open to all suggestions for solutions, except "Let's remove restrictions and just make drow and Lolth basically just another option, which would turn the drow into black-skinned evil elves with the same connotation as calling dwarves small, bearded humans."

[Ceara]

Well, I have read almost the entire drizzt series as well as daughter of the drow, the first book (finally found the other two but haven't gotten to reading them) and own a lot of the manuals so I read this thread interested in what details it might hold.
One thing about half-drow that has been left out is that Vhaeraun (not sure that's the correct spelling but too lazy to look it up) is the god and patron of half-drow. According to the manuals. According to novels most of his drow are on the surface and will take human mates to further a power base, though pure blooded drow mating is preffered half drow are acceptable and any half drow is better than a human.
Personally I would love to see him brought in the game, he is a cool deity, though I do not expect it will ever happen.

One thing I do agree on though and think is a good idea, that sun elves have a kismet requirement to play as well. I have an old elven character who played like a sun elf before I even knew what it was.
I recently tried to bring her back because I noticed that most (not all) elves act like pretty humans. Her history is she left evermeet as an outcast because she is more tolerant of other races, but when I tried to play her she was so offended by her own kind she left for evermeet again.

I think that all rp should be enforced, not just evil rp. As for the drow, I don't really want to see them removed, I have a drow and sometimes enjoy playing her. I also have a character who has made a tentative alliance with some drow and is planning evil things for the surface.

I'm sick and in pain so this post isn't likely to be as diplomatic or informative as I would like. This is in no way a pointing fingers or trying to get into an arguement. But elves can be as complex to play as a drow, their societies have many rules as well and history, if you don't know much about drow or elves Evermeet is a really good book to read to find out.

Anyway that is my thought and opinion, hope it helps somehow.

[Dalvyn]

My post above went through before I saw your long diatribe above, which reinforced my impression that you are mixing things up and did not understand what I mean.

To make it clear and short, I would have nothing but praise for this roleplay if the character was a half-drow (or any other race, but drow) priestess of Loviatar or Bane or any other "surface" deity. Hopefully, that will make my position clearer.

[Solaghar]

What is not fine though is for a follower of Lolth to do nothing but be friendly and acquire allies on the surface. For what goal? For what grand scheme? As noted above, drow and thus all things Lolth-related are confined to the Underdark and some specific locales where they can meet up with surface dwellers, mainly for the reason that the only IC interaction between drow and surface dwellers would be to surface raids and similar situations that are not considered currently as being desirable on FK.

But your claim that all things Lolth-related are confined to the Underdark is only because you are under the impression that the 'correct' roleplaying of Lolth and all of her followers relates only to the Underdark. Lolth wishes to revenge herself against the Seldarine, to be a constant thorn in the sides of the Elves, she wishes her followers to retake the surface for her and to spread word of her worship in all places while still maintaining the drow as her favored people. How can one legitimately claim that one can be a better thorn in the side of the Elves and cause problems to them from Skullport than a base on the surface where one can arrange allies against the Elves, cause problems for them and otherwise spread chaos amongst them? The drow were both cursed and evolved a sensitivity to light which causes them to be unable to deal with the surface in the daytime. But that does not mean that Lolth is content or happy with this state of affairs or that she does not wish to have operatives on the surface to spread her word and will.

You are making the mistake of attributing things to Lolth which aren't true and then acting on those assumptions. The key isn't to lessen the roleplaying viability of the drow and in effect neuter them, as you say, by making them dark-skinned human jerks. It's to make everyone adhere to a high standard of roleplay while still understanding that Gods are not limited beings who are content to allow their people to languish and to allow stagnation of the current state of affairs. Lolth is a chaotic deity who is consumed by the desire to revenge herself against those who drove her unwilling into the underdark. She no more wishes to confine her activity to the underdark than Corellon wishes to confine his activity to Evermeet or Moradin wishes to confine his to the few mountains and hills where dwarves live. Lolth in reality has even less reason to be happy with the status quo than these two deities.

You are stating that one must have a goal and a grand scheme to act upon to have some reason to be on the surface. My goal is the conversion of as many people as I can to worship of Lolth. I actively try to meet impressionable young people and teach them about Lolth, advocating the chaotic nature of her personality, the idea that the strongest should rule and that the Elven deities are hypocrites or worse. These are fairly commonly held beliefs amongst evils already, so I try to make them palatable to others as I express her ideas about religion.

What grand scheme do I have? I have several. I have expressed them in the past, the construction of a surface temple to Lolth, the establishment of a foothold upon the surface for Lolth-worshippers in Cormanthor forest, reinhabiting some of the Elven ruins from that place, seeking out their lost power. I would say that my long term goals are as reasonable as anyone else's and probably far more developed. By the same token I can ask what does the average Beshaban or Sharran or Tymoran have as their long term goal? You're assuming there is no legitimate long term goal that a Lolth follower could have on the surface in direct opposition to everything that Lolth teaches and desires for her followers to achieve, namely the reestablishment of her power upon the surface as supreme deity of the elves, the reconversion of the elves to her worship and the destruction of the Seldarine. These goals will not be accomplished in Skullport or Menzoberranzan or any other city in the underdark.

[Scylere]

I would like to add something to this discussion, as I have played a goblin for a long time now. I have encountered the tremendous amount of resistance and difficulty a goblin would have. To me, this mirrors the issue of halfdrow on the surface or even below the surface. I hope what I say can be beneficial to anyone who seeks to play a character that would be hated everywhere.

It took me a long time to find the places a goblin was not welcome and could be tolerated, being inconspicuous and befriending whoever would do the same of me. Oddly enough, he turned to a neutral path without going psycho evil or turning into a Drizztlike character. This was a very long process. Honestly, the things I have enjoyed most in FK have been the things that have taken a long time to develop. They are the most fulfilling and the most interesting.

For a hated/feared race, we have to be careful and patient with the rp. Even to spending time just idling in places away from cities. I did spend a long time idling in places where there weren't people or there weren't cities. To find spells was the most difficult. I had to watch where I went, as most temples, cities, public areas, etc, would simply throw me out or attack me. I also had to take the time to look into the next room, something we all should do more often when walking anywhere. Looking into the next room, sometimes helped me see a place that I obviously would not welcome.

When we play races such as goblins, hobgoblins, halfdrow, drow, sun elves, wemics, genasi, etc, we just have to be patient and let the character develop over time. For the longest time, IRL, I had to let my goblin have nothing but the basic spells, because no temple plausible to him would take him.

The suggestions Dalvyn made are very difficult to live up to. It means we have to take our time and just enjoy each moment of the game. Living up to these suggestions is also be courteous of other players and adding to the general enjoyment and richness of the world the imms are trying to create.

Those are my thoughts.

[Dalvyn]

But your claim that all things Lolth-related are confined to the Underdark is only because you are under the impression that the 'correct' roleplaying of Lolth and all of her followers relates only to the Underdark.

No, it is because the drow PCs are limited to the Underdark, for various reasons. And the worship of Lolth is intimately associated with the drow race. You can put her chaotic aspect, or her fight vs the Seldarine aspect to the front, but her core attribute is still the drow race.

The only drow found on the surface are drow mobs... and to say it plainly, the reason behind that is that it's fine if the only interaction you have with a mob is to kill it, while interactions between PCs shouldn't be restricted to pkilling.

Since drow PCs are not allowed to roam the surface freely, it is pretty safe to say that PC-driven drow-related and Lolth-related actions are limited to and only make sense in the Underdark, in the world of FK.

... understanding that Gods are not limited beings who are content to allow their people to languish and to allow stagnation of the current state of affairs. Lolth [...] no more wishes to confine her activity to the underdark than Corellon wishes to confine his activity to Evermeet ...

That's fine and sound ICly... and that's why there are drow MOBS on the surface. This "let's conquer the surface" roleplay is part of the roleplay of followers of Lolth, I agree with this. But, on FK, this is not an option opened to PCs, for various reasons which you might agree with or not.

You are stating that one must have a goal and a grand scheme to act upon ... My goal is the conversion of as many people as I can to worship of Lolth ... the construction of a surface temple to Lolth, the establishment of a foothold upon the surface for Lolth-worshippers in Cormanthor forest ... These goals will not be accomplished in Skullport or Menzoberranzan or any other city in the underdark.

Lolth as a deity is intimately associated with drow - I've already stated that above. Just like we don't have a horde of non-dwarves worshipers of Moradin, or non-elves worshipers of Corellon, or non-halfling worshippers of Yondalla, and so on, I can't see a horde of non-drow worshipers of Lolth on FK either. A surface temple to Lolth would thus be filled mosly with drow mobs, and never visited by drow PCs. Same with the foothold idea.

What I am trying to point out here and that you seem to refuse to see is that it follows from the fact that drow PCs are not allowed to the surface that Lolth-oriented roleplays on the surface do not make sense.

[Dalvyn]

And, by the way, when I was talking about solutions above, I meant, like changing deity as part of a roleplay for example.

[Nicolya]

I am not trying to do any flaming or insult anyone. I just have one question. I understand that Lolth is all about advancing the drow, but my question is would she view a half-drow as a weakling or abomination of her glorious race, or as a tool to use?
As I understood it, this was in part why Loviatar in Dambrath had such a large number of half-drows in her faith. I had thought that it was Vhaeraun's drow that lead them to interact with the Lovites in Dambrath, but its been awhile since I've read that information.

[Solaghar]

It still seems to be a logical conclusion that is based off of an initial double standard. Yes, while Lolth is very much so a Drow deity, she is banned from having activity on the surface because the Drow do not go on the surface. The reason the drow do not go on the surface is because there is a double standard as to their RP. One need only look at Cyricists to see this. Cyricists are murderers, thieves, assassins, they engage in slave trading and try to dominate all of their neighbors through Zhentil Keep. Their RP is 'detrimental' to the game in the same sense that the RP of the drow would be detrimental to the game, but no one seems to have a problem with this. The Cyricists find a way around it that allows them to interact with others without constantly murdering them yet still makes them a feared part of the world. While drow roleplay is in many ways identical in form to much of this, it is somehow strangely so much more damaging than having Cyricists, who are apparently so non-damaging that it's not even debated whether they cause a problem or not.

...drow and thus all things Lolth-related are confined to the Underdark and some specific locales where they can meet up with surface dwellers, mainly for the reason that the only IC interaction between drow and surface dwellers would be to surface raids and similar situations that are not considered currently as being desirable on FK.

To me to read something like this, one can not also help but think of the orcs. But again, there is no effort among the administration to remove orcs from the game. Tell me how there is any meaningful contact between orcs and elves or humans that isn't based on orcs trying to dominate these races, to attack their villages, slaughter them, take them slave, sack them and otherwise just be a horrible nuisance to everyone they meet with, including other orcs.

This is what makes me confused, it's the double standard. One can easily accept that Lolth-worship should be disallowed on the surface if one accepts that Lolth worshippers would be detrimental to interaction with other PCs as the majority of the RP they are capable of is violent or antagonistic. But the reasons given that make them detrimental are not even debated for others races/religions/political structures, and I do not understand why if we're so concerned about roleplay that is seen as damaging to FK, these groups are allowed to go about their business without question while one specific group is not.

[Solaghar]

I am not trying to do any flaming or insult anyone. I just have one question. I understand that Lolth is all about advancing the drow, but my question is would she view a half-drow as a weakling or abomination of her glorious race, or as a tool to use?
As I understood it, this was in part why Loviatar in Dambrath had such a large number of half-drows in her faith. I had thought that it was Vhaeraun's drow that lead them to interact with the Lovites in Dambrath, but its been awhile since I've read that information.

In my understanding, even the drow are nothing more than tools for Lolth to use. Lolth does not truly care about anything other than herself. The drow are merely the sharpest and most deadly of her tools to use against others, and the group most akin to her own philosophy, as she's been able to direct them in that way over 10,000 years.

As for the Loviatar bit, the humans of Dambrath were very heavily into Loviatar worship before the Drow invaded, and it's said that the Loviatarans helped the drow to take over. As most drow are not particularly accepting of half-drow and Loviatar worship was already strong, they transferred much of their allegiance to Loviatar once the drow abandoned the realm to their half-drow children.

[Dalvyn]

Because drow are universally recognized as enemies, by all surface dwellers, which is not the case of the other examples you cite.

As for orcs... they were introduced a long time ago. Orcs in themselves do not have that much of a specific racial roleplay. I guess they were put in as some "evil" races that would oppose the goods. I'm not fond of orcs either, but they are fine when they do not act only like bullies and brutes.

Drow now, they were introduced with the idea that people might like to roleplay the specificities of drow society. Houses, matron mothers, weapon masters, first sons, academy, the plotting and backstabbing and so on. They were introduced for those who wanted to roleplay drow society, NOT as a new race to be used as ennemies and killers and raiders and to appease pkill lovers.

[Penryn]

My thoughts upon this subject are rather diverse. I can see where both sides come to their conclusions and understand their reasonings. Here is what I consider upon the subject though, taken mainly in the mindset of a GM of almost 20 years tabletop.

1. Lloth would look downwards upon half-drow much akin to a child with a toy that is already half broken. They would see them as easier to sacrifice and less useful overall. They would be considered not pure in her mindset and sullied. I don’t forsee them ever rising to a place or position of power within the faithful, as they would be looked upon as nothing more then a slave by most pure drow and an easy target in their games.

2. I do not believe the events that take place in the future timeline of TSR’s forgotten realms with the drow taking over much of prior cormanthyr have taken place. After all the events of recent novels have not been added for the most part going back to the Evermeet novel itself. So really I don’t forget a large half-drow society, except perhaps those of the far south half-drow which aren’t a common occurance this far to the northern part of Faerun. As for other places for power? I have a hard time viewing the powers that control Zhentil Keep letting the half-drow raise a shrine and power basis within their city. Heck, I have a hard time seeing them allow any strength that could go against the worship or draw from the worship of the one true god from them. The same can go for Westgate as well the other currently primary spot for evils out of the underdark. Where could the strength of a Lloth faith grow upon the surface and how long before one of the other “evil” faiths would see it as a power threat to them? I think a slim time personally, but never know.

3. I can understand why a PC wouldn’t want to sit in the underdark and idle for a long time, trust me as a player of a sunrise elf, I often do the same as my own character. He keeps his distance and few, very few, truly know him more then a quick word or two. Yes, idling can suck but it is part of the character RP and what comes with the choice, mindset of the characters.

4. For Sunrise elves upon faerun, there is plenty of them that did not totally heed the all to the Green Isle. There are some within Silverymoon that are there since the fall of Myth Drannor, as Silverymoon was a colony of the city of bards. There are others from Evereska and a dozen other locations if you really wish I can pull up stats on that sometime in a PM for you. I do agree that they should require a kismet to rp. But, if it was up to me all full elves would require kismet cost to rp and a test too. It is not uncommon for a sunrise elf to be a ranger and some even follow Solonor, as for the insistence of a sunrise elf following the beliefs of Corellon different then other elves they do to some respect. But, overall the mandates of this faith in the game was established a long time ago. Anything more said on that subject would give away IC things which wouldn’t be proper.

5. Personally, I haven’t seen a problem with your rp when I have had the chance to witness it. Unfortunately, I do not often have that chance as my own path is much different then your character’s. I have even rewarded you kismet during it for good role play. One thing I could say though that his mud is more heavily RP first and Pkill last. Or at least that was my understanding of it in the past always. Heck, for four years my character hasn’t even gotten into pkill because some, like myself hate it. I bring this up merely because we always need to remember the world around us is filled with others here for rp, fun, enjoyment and it isn’t much fun to be in the abyss waiting for a rezz for hours upon hours

Solutions?

1. Obviously removing the half-drow is not an option, once in and many folks enjoy rping their characters. It wouldn’t be correct to just up and remove them. Now for limiting their number, that wouldn’t be a problem at all to see done as they are to be rare. Or limiting their faiths is up to others, I wouldn’t be against seeing the child of Corellon and Lloth, Vhaeraun to take over as the primary god for them. He could be a very good “evil” god that isn’t dead set on outright slaughter but more indirect schemes. Lloth, I think along with Eilistraee both shouldn’t be upon the surface world.

2. The construction, if the imms wish, for an area that they could have a pro half-drow, evil elves, etc place. Or a place like a shilmista area for where they are trying to claim of their own. So that they could find a place of worship. Perhaps putting a shrine to Vhaeraun into there as well. If we are going to progress the game to have the elven court fall into the drow hands (of course that opens up the argument for Myth drannor to end up in gold elf hands too).

3. Perhaps putting up more guidelines for the entire mud to review for rp and interaction with half-drow. It is funny to see them walking into waterdeep, or standing right outside of waterdeep or daggerford or another major human settlement. 3,4 or 10 of them there would be destroyed by a large army as soon as seen or hinted about being within 30 miles of such populace areas (specially if Cormyr gets built someday).

Some suggestions for it all and opinion there from what I have read and seen over the years. Of course nobody has to agree with me

[Gwain]

It migth be plausable to permanently send all half drow to the underdark to various available city locations and lower the kismet required to create them and cut them off from the surface, but allow them to rp in Skullport. This might seem harsh, but it would keep drow dominant pk rp and evil drow rp confined to a space ready to accept it.

In all things you have to accept restrictions on your rp if you rp a certain race, class or guild. Some have less restrictions and others more, but that does not mean you cannot do your best to adapt. You can always make a new character, you can always explore the options to have a character of another race, creed, or way. Just do your best, remember it is a game, run by dedicated admins that know the material, the code and respect the world that they have created and allowed us to create. Just because you feel that your rp is not respected as it should be does not mean you need to create a public forum on it. Just try your best or create something new.

[Duranamir]

Gwain I think you are wrong. IC why would the Half Drow want to live in the underdark ?. It is a horrible place to be a Half Drow you are not welcome in the Drow society and there is no where else to go. The essence in my opinion of most Half Drow is that they are outsiders not wanted any where. So the surface is the best place to be at least you can try and make a place for yourself even if most people hate you up there.

And if you can find any reference in any canon material that shows Half Drow being restricted to the underdark i would be amazed. They are even a playable race in the core forgotten realms rule book ! So i can see no justification what so ever for restricting Half Drow to the underdark.

If you think that limiting Half Drow to the underdark will limit PK i think you are much mistaken. PK is a player attitude such players will find another race and still PK. I for one do not play a Half Drow for the PK opportunities. I play him for the RP which does include the fact that his is an outsider discriminated against almost everywhere. In fact it sometimes annoys me when i am not discriminated against when i think i should be.

I will add my thoughts to the Drow post when I have had time to think.

Duranamir (a Drow and proud of it !).