Dodge

[Harroghty]

I've worn both modern and medieval armor. Modern American body armor (Interceptor vest with SAPI armor plates, kevlar helmet) plus weapon, gear, assault pack and whatever else makes you pretty darn sluggish. Medieval armor, even something as light as lamellar (leather) makes "leaping around" pretty miserable.

So, in other words, to defend my Jet Li comment and bolster the "Banna": Jet Li wears pajamas, let's see how much he dodges when he's got steel restricting his range of movement, slowing his reactions and limiting his visibility. Kevlar and Nomex are bad enough -- steel, leather and quilted cloth are enough to make a heat casualty trying to walk around, much less jump.

[Argentia]

Well, to dodge something, you needn't necessarily jump all over the place. A dodge could be something as painfully simple as stepping to the side, ducking, or moving your head slightly. In martial arts this is called taisubaki, the ancient art of stepping out of the way. Granted, I have never worn a full suit of plate mail - and I wholeheartedly agree wearing heavy armor should come with penalties to dodging - but I just wanted to add that a fighter doesn't have to jump seven feet away in order to dodge something.

[Nysan]

Mmm, thread moving good old time.

Anyways, dodge and AC systems are seriously screwy as stated... so very true. Code can be such a pain in some areas. *shrug*

In a perfect world:

Dodge would be coded to be effected by armor. The old 'your armor effects your sucess' type echo deal. Leather/cloth good. Full plate with tower shield and big shiny sword, not so hoppy.

Max % at GM would be around 50% with a possibility to use certain feats to increase it depending on your class.

Dodge would be useable on more attacks than the current one per round but be harder to dodge all attacks, even at GM. In other words, the reduction of the old 75-80% to around 50% at GM, with checks at every attack not every round.

Such a perfect world would also have a propperly functioning AC system, but thats another thread. Still, these changes would allow dodge to be more balanced while allowing it to be used more than once a round.

But, who's perfect?

[Kilak]

In Third Edition D&D they dealt with this situation by having a cap on the bonus AC from Dex based on what armour you wore. So if you wore leather, your max bonus to AC from Dex would be around 7, while if you wore Full Plate you would gain no bonus (don't have the book infront of me, so the numbers might be slightly off)

We also have to remember, that if you lived and fought with those armours on every day, then you would get used to the weight and be able to function better than we could if we slipped on the armour. I have a chainmail hauberk with coif that I bought, and yes, it weighs less than the medieval counterpart, but chain does a fairly nice job of distributing it's weight over your shoulders. The part that got uncomfortable first was wearing the coif, as my neck isn't used to the 8-10 pounds of metal on it.

If you kept dodge like it was, it could then be modified by the level of armour. If you wear no or light armour you have full access to dodge, if you wear medium, your dodge is considered 2 levels lower, and if you wear heavy then you are 3 or 4 levels lower. So if you are grandmaster, and wear heavy armour, you can still dodge, but just at a lower level equivalent.

[Tretch]

Hmm... thinking over this again.

The entire point of my post.:

Before the code change, unless you were fighting more than 4 mobs at once...


A naked fighter with GM dodge and weapons was the strongest character.


Ask anyone with an incredibly strong fighter. Especially one vs. one, its absurd almost how crippling the difference is......


Needed to be changed.

[Alaudrien]

hmm I am comming into this discussion late and just noticed it. I have noticed when I took a break and came back that my rogue who dodged often enough he didn't get reamed out the butt in some fights. He is hmm a little under master level in dodge. I like what Algon says about uncanny and improved uncanny dodge. Not all classes got/get this skill in 3.5. I would like it if I could dodge more than once per round. As a thief I have seen some players who play a thief/bard/fighter who like to play swashbucklers. They did an admirable job like Rozor wearing not armour period until recently I noticed. Actually stood up in a fight and survived and even fought back well. or like A duelist prestige class. They cannot wear armour period. They get bonuses to there dodge and parrying abilities for this lack of armour. I think the only thing I have seen them able to use as armour is a buckler and bracers or a small dagger or some such to go along with there main weapon. The uncanny and improved uncanny dodge would do well to help put some strength back behind those fighters who rp the lighter fleeter of foot types, and the rogues who wish to play as swashbucklers or not wear armour. It does make rogues and I personally love them to be killed in a few hits to our heads legs and chest. While in books and table top rogues these days can stand up flaunt what they got and ream a warrior dead on at times. I have done this a few times taunt em feint out and got a surprise attack into his leg that hamstrung his butt. I am going on yet again but I feel those feats and a hefty quest for each of them to give them the chance to dodge more than once a round would be nice.

On a side note is parry the same can you only have the chance to do it once per round or is it a chance for each hit? Like riposte has a chance to redirect the attack back anytime you got a successful parry?

EDIT: What I was getting to I think I left it out is. All warriors walking around in platemail and such is kinda..making them generic looking and not having them decide how they play. If they wear it for not being hit so bads sake. ><

[Lukon]

I would like to throw in my support to the 'more than one dodge' camp, as it really does make more nimble fighter builds and rogues in general less than combat viable to have a single dodge. Maybe reflect max dodges by skill ranks? Something, at least, to balance out, but not necessarily match, the benefit of heavy armor.

I understand the kneejerk opposition to 'negating' successful attacks, but considering the sheer volume of attacks and the amount of attacks that mobs gets, it's not really THAT big of a deal, especially at lower levels. And at higher levels, a few shots is all it takes to go down, especially from multiple attackers.

[Kregor]

I would just as soon there be effort on revising the combat engine to really work, like the D20 model, rather than re-re-working dodge to go back to being as unbalancing as it was. Fact of the matter is, it was, people could GM their dodge and be virtually untouchable.

fact of the matter, if I take Rozor into the peaks now with his traditional no armour, I might get the clothes shredded, but I would even come close to dying, as it should be, because that's an area below his level...

If I take him into Hartsvale into the cold marches and get surrounded by a crowd of ogres... I just might die. If I walk among the giants, it's a guaranteed death sentence. That's also fitting, as Hartsvale is a higher level area, and was that was designed for grouping.

You also need to look at some of the other factors that now affect the apparent higher difficulty of some areas, not just the dodge. The aforementioned ogres are now armed, consistently, it's also been tweaked that barehand damage can actually hit someone, and do some damage. The overall challenge has been tweaked in many ways, fighting mobs in the long run is tougher, we are encouraged to party up to train in higher exp areas, and we get to actually earn our experience because of the challenge.

[Alaudrien]

I would think that the battle system to work as the D2o system would be nice. I also think dodging should be slightly different I do like how Lukon put it you can dodge more on the skill of your dodge but max it at 2 or 3 even when high lvl those monster do more. I also think gnomes and halflings versus things bigger should have more chances to dodge. Since if a gnome/halfling fights a giant they can only take one ..maybe two hits. But they are so small they can weave in and out with there small bodies that a giant couldn't do it much harm until it gets that one hit. I do think being able to dodge more than once heck twice max would be a bit better for some. ..mostly I think I was trying to make a point. I'd at least give gnomes more of a chance to dodge versus the bigger races that could be like...depending on say a small size versus a large aka giants and ogres I think they could have 1 extra dodge?

[Harroghty]

I would like to see the fighting system changed (whenever an overhaul for d20 is done) to reflect how, in a real sword fight (or melee), you wouldn't be hit so often. It would be "nasty, brutish and quick" with a few artful dodges, scrapes and a finish. The combat system now is like rock-em-sock-em robots mingled with modern sport fencing. Don't get me wrong, I think the new echoes are cool and I realize the nature of the role-playing beast but the purist in me had to weigh in. Cheers.

[Valdimyr]

Granted, a sword(melee) fight would be short lived, but there are some who like watching the rounds of battle go by. They love to see the echo's that they produce by using their sword with great skill and knowledge.

Also, another good reason why a melee fight lasts so long, is for magic users. This way they are able to get a few spells casted before the fight is over all because they got stabbed in the chest right at the beginning.

This is another part of a MUD where you have to sacrifice realism for better gameplay. As much as some people would like to see a melee fight resemble a realistic one, I'm afraid that you will never be able to sacrifice gameplay for the reasons I just listed above. And if for some reason you do, I would assure you there would have to be another way for a magic user to gain exp and advance through the games, because in the fighting world, they would have to rely on having a warrior friend the entire time. That would then in turn put them on a downside and unbalance the different classes throughout the game.

[Alaudrien]

One solution to that would be the battles would still be slow but it would have many options open not to just mages of what to cast but to fighters rogues clerics and so on. Like trip disarm sunder etc.. is just a natural thing you can do but with penalties unless you have a feat or some such to counter balance those negatives. Like dual wield is just a thing anyone can do but with some big bonuses depending on the size of the weapons and if you have a feat to aid in it ^^ I like it but even if they do decide on putting it in it would take alot of time. I mean ALOT just cant poof it up. I like the fighting engine now and like all they can be tuned up to purr like a kitten! hehe

[Shabanna]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this... sorry if it is not.

I have a question about the number of times a mob can dodge It seems...to me... that if ALL classes and PCs are limited to one dodge per round that... it would follow that ALL MOBs have this limitation as well?? I have noticed on every MOB I have pounded on of late... they seem to have this remarkabole quality to dodge like bunnies

IMHO... if PCs of all classes are limited to one dodge per round then..... so should the MOBs ?? I mean... I think... it is not very feasible for some low level / half starved beat-up slave to somehow be able to dodge 3 attacks in a single round while a well trained level 50 rogue could not do the same in a similar situation... is it ?? :/

Thats all I'm sayin'...

"The Banna"

Edit: I wanted to add... Lol that these are just examples and I am not specifically saying that THIS particular MOB was the one... but I have seen both lowish and med level MOBs dodge multiple times. I just did not want people saying *gasp* "WTF was your level 50 doing killing slaves?!?" etc . lol Thanks...

[Hrosskell]

I saw a post from Tretch that was made a while back, suggesting an increase per class. I really liked this idea because thieves currently have -very- little place in the game. There's like, one or two quests that actively involve traps, and when I -do- break into a place, I can't even hold my own long enough for me to run. I don't want to make the argument that thieves should be able to fight like fighters. They shouldn't. But they should have -some- staying power. A priest can tank in full plate and heal himself. A mage can negate most of your damage. A fighter can not only tank, but dodge too. What can a thief with half the HP (and the same con mod, I might add), do? Never get caught? No. Failure is just as much a part of an attempt as success.

To clear up a little, I'm all in favor of Fighter - 1 dodge, Ranger/Barb - 2 dodge, Thief - 3 (or 4) dodge.

[Leohand]

I actually have a fighter, but I don't find it all that enjoyable to play. It's alright, but I find Priests, Wizards and Rogue's a bit more fun. And yes, I am all in favor of rogues being able to dodge better and more often.

[Lukon]

A thought: Wouldn't it be more reasonable to base max # of dodges on the amount of armor you're wearing, thus giving unarmored fighters a chance to shine just as well as a nimble rogue or thief. And no, it wouldn't be unbalancing. There's a difference between a swashbuckling rogue and a master fencer. Ex: Inigo Montoya. He had no sneak or hide or sneak attack. But he was a fighter by every meaning of the word.

My recommendation:
No Armor/Clothing: 4 attempts
Light Armor: 3
Medium Armor: 2
Heavy Armor: 1 (And that can be a stretch...)

[Zach]

that is how it was before... but then we had quite a few warriors with GM at dodge who were going around naked/leathers leveling high areas and couldn't get hit because of their dodge

[Dalvyn]

Just a FYI. All discussions on the dodge skill are kind of moot currently, since they are based on a current system that is planned to be heavily modified.

Here's (approximately) how it works in D&D, and how it's supposed to work after the change on FK.

Magical effects notwithstanding, armour class depends on three things:

- armour your wear
- your Dexterity
- "Dodge"

Armour your wear

Each armour type corresponds to a modifier to your Armour Class (AC, which determines whether or not a blow hits - armour does not absorb damage in D&D, either it's a hit or not). Armour types are classified into three categories :

- light armour (leather, hide, studded leather): relatively low modifier to AC (from +1 to +3), does not hamper movement, loose limitation on Dexterity (see below)

- medium armor (chainmail): medium modifier to AC (from +3 to +5), does not hamper movement, medium limitation on Dexterity (see below)

- heavy armor (plate mail): high modifier to AC (from +6 to +8), restrict movement (you move more slowly), harsh limitation on Dexterity (see below)

Your Dexterity

Dexterity also modifies your Armour Class. The more nimble you are, the more you are apt at dodging incoming blows. The Dexterity modifier to your AC is limited by the type of armour you wear though. If you have heavy plate mail, you can't "jump" out of the way of an incoming blow as easily as if you had leather armour.

If you have no armour, your full Dexterity modifier applies to your Armour Class.

If you have light armour, your Dexterity modifier is capped at a maxium value of +5 to +8 (depending on the exact type of armour). A maximum-at-creation value of 18 to your Dexterity means a +4 modifier, FYI. So, in most cases, light armour does not really prevent you from applying your full Dexterity modifier (which is generally smaller than +5), except in the case of heavily Dex-based characters.

If you have medium armour, your Dexterity modifier is capped at +2 to +4. That means that Dexterity will contribute only partially to your Armour Class.

Finally, if you have heavy armour, your Dexterity modifier is capped at +0 or +1, which means that your Dexterity is basically ignored.

That means that you can have both extreme archetypes of:

- the slow, heavily-armoured fighter, with heavy armour, slow movement, and Dexterity not being taken into consideration.

- the quick and agile, light-armoured fighter, with leather or a simple vest, who constantly jumps around to avoid the blows.

Dodge

Dodge in D&D is a feat (that you can only take if you have a good enough Dexterity). Having it means that (simplifying slightly here) you can add a +1 bonus to your Armour Class against the enemy you are fighting. It means that you are harder to hit for that particular opponent, but not impossible.

It has nothing to do with the blasphemy that we currently have on FK, where dodge can make you basically immune to incoming blows, including - and that's worse - when you are wearing heavy armour.

Note that, like most things in D&D, this is an "on/off" ability. Either you have it, or you don't, but you don't have to "train" it or "improve" it.