Losing items in a pkill

Scylere · Post by **Scylere** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:26 am

I have seen that a lot of strife in pkills occurs because someone takes an item from a dead person, or people are afraid they will lose their favourite items or most expensive items.

And honestly, it isn't fun to lose items. The only way it could be fun, is if the other player sought to do a larger rp with the item, with the intent of the owner receiving the item back.

I wanted to suggest a change in the pkill rules. Could it be changed that the winners of pkills are not allowed to take items from dead people?

I think this would alleviate a lot of the fear and tension that occurs with pkills, as well as make the whole game more enjoyable.

Thoughts?

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:44 am

I am going to have to voice my opinion......... no. I have always been in support of the taking of one item. Under one condition. That a chance for a follow up rp is set so the loosing pc can work toward getting their stuff back. This elongates the rp and makes it longer then a one session rp.

Moradin · Post by **Moradin** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:23 am

If the taking is for RP purposes and not just spite or avarice, then I would encourage the two players to chat OOCly about the matter.

One other comment to make here, I've noted lately a number of instances of faith symbol taking. Previously this was not possible due to code, but I would strongly advise folk who do this to weigh up the OOC as well as IC consequences.

A prolonged RP between one or two opposing players is fine, a cycle of kill and counter-kill between faiths is not.

Lathlain · Post by **Lathlain** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:32 am

I'm not sure I agree. Is it a good idea to alleviate the fear and tension of a player kill? A lot of characters already respond to death and the prospect of it very lightly, and certainly not as terminally as I'd expect from a real person.

The fear of losing valued items is the only real current incentive for a character to not tempt death, and I'm firmly in favour of it.

Lukon · Post by **Lukon** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:41 am

I don't think that's a valid reason to keep/lose the item loss rules for pkills. Death has little fear in FK because there is no permanent death. Even resurrection is a minor inconvenience. I'd like to state, that while the Kelemvorites, I think, are wrong in their standard view of Kelemvor's take of raise dead spells, I think they've got the right idea for the game in general.

Death is nothing but a speed bump in character progression and RP, as it stands. No one is going to dissapear forever. And that fear of loss is what makes adventurers a little crazy in defying it. As long as having a cleric means you'll be 'all right', death will hold little grip on our choices, IC. Why would it?

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:14 am

Heh from the a discussion about making death more serious: Add in a random chance for perma death and I beat a lot people will stop walking the line with their characters.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:18 am

Taking possessions from someone you kill is a choice, not a requirement. It is also an option, not a right. The rule says you MAY take one item, for the purpose of furthering RP, not MUST take.

Those who know me, know I am not a big fan of pkill, period. The few times where I have won a pkill, I can't think of a single time that I actually took something from the PC. It doesn't make me any worse or better a person to take that item.

The few times I have LOST a pkill, I have often had an item taken by pkill "rules." In almost every situation, I have lost said item permanently, as the person who took it either a) No longer logs said character, or b) stopped playing the game entirely.

And in the great grand scheme that I've seen it, the act of taking an item doesn't foster "further RP", what is fosters is return PKill. In a limited PKill mud, my opinion is, we don't need acts that foster it purely for the sake of it. In rare occurances do I see said items come back to a person over a negotiated means, it more often is a peeing contest between the killer and the killed, to see who can win it next time.

Ninde · Post by **Ninde** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:04 pm

I am not saying I am with or against taken an item after a pkill, and Ninde doesn't beat anyone in a pkill at all. Anyway, in a few occurances, I have never taken an item, and this is only because it would be ICly nonsense for my character to take them so far. But a few items taken away from me, and actually I never chased that person, to get my item back. IMO, it causes nothing but another continuing Pkill situation.
Still, I don't see it wrong, unless, the item that is taken is fitting ICly.

Harroghty · Post by **Harroghty** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:32 pm

I recognize the desire to limit PKills on this MUD but I would like to say that while taking an item does encourage further PKills, if these are well played then it does, in turn, encourage further role-play. I can recall one instance where my character was stunned by another player and had an item of particular sentimental value taken. The act spurred a lot of back and forth RP... yes, to include a lot of bloodiness on both parts, but it kept the game interesting and fostered a decent story-line for us.
I personally think PKills are given a bad rap in a lot of ways. While I understand and abide by the desire to limit them on this game, I think some characters suffer under a kind of stigma for acting in character, if that makes sense. I can't really finger a character that I'd go so far as to call a murderer (or at least a frequent one) but there are several I know who do PKill from time to time in keeping with their breed of character, and do a good job of showing restraint I think. No one wants to lose the product of all their effort in the game to a random PKill, but when done well I think a little conflict enhances the game and shouldn't necessarily be frowned upon provided its within the guidelines of FK. Anyway, off my soapbox. Cheers.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:32 pm

Note, I did not use this thread as a case against pkill, rather a case against those who seem to think that they HAVE to take stuff from the corpses of those they pkilled. The rule allows it, doesn't mean you have to do it; doesn't mean its IC for you to always do so; doesn't mean you should take something that would be un-IC for your PC to take, rather picking something that is valuable or you know will antagonize the victim into hunting you down and trying to pkill you right back.

I will go as far as to say that I think the majority of the decisions to take an item from a pkill are nothing but baiting another pkill, no better than bullying, or camping in an un-IC area to hope someone sees you to come try and kill you, or anything else we do to farm pkills beyond what one would have in the normal course of RP or adventuring.

But then, some people like that stuff.. just don't drag people into the cycle that don't wanna, is all I'm asking for, if nothing else.

Scylere · Post by **Scylere** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:49 am

Here's a thought to add to this:

From my limited amount of play, I have noticed that the majority of pkills are started by a character who is stronger than the others (higher level, etc). Rarely do you ever see a low level character challenge a high level character.

They know they will lose, so they do not enter the pkill rp. Why, but to keep the few items they have attained? I think it's extremely fun to enter pkill rps when you know codewise you could lose.

One more thought:

Many items in FK cannot be replaced (ie quest rewerads). Isn't it more fun to have those items which help define your character? If there is an option to lose these items, we would be less inclined to enter a pkill. Yet, if a pkill is rped and not just left to the code, it can be the most exciting event in the game.

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:22 am

Pkills.

In the hands of RESPONSIBLE and CONSIDERATE players, in the spirit of a GOOD TIME and OUT OF CHARACTER HARMONY, can actually be quite fun.

However, there has to be some discussion before the event goes down to make that event fun for everyone.

Am I saying you have screech the entire role play to a halt? No. To use a real example, When you and your evil homies are chilling on a road, and you see a band of 5 goodies come up to you and start talking smack, PERHAPS someone in the group of ten should be responsible enough to talk to everyone and get verification that a PKill can go down and see who is all right with that, and who is not. Find out if anyone in the group is going to be upset by getting an object taken, ect.

It's not hard. I personally give people blanket requests if it looks like it's going to be PKilling even if it's not directed at me. (That is when I remember!) JUST IN CASE I end up accidently dying in the middle. (It's happend, don't laugh.)

Communication is KEY in Pkill situations. It keeps good vibes on each side of the fence and allows for more situations of it's like with those characters and players in the future. Which means MORE ROLE PLAYING!

Who doesn't want that?
Just remember that too much ooc discussion is just as detrimental as a PKill out of nowhere!

Gwain · Post by **Gwain** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:41 am

Hello,

I've had the pleasure of using some of the weakest player characters in game, because i have made my focus rp and only really ever train in the pressence of groups. This makes me weak, I accept that. What I will not accept is that pk cannot be generated by weaker pc's in the face of adversity. I have started pk rp's and lost items, though it might seem like a bad thing, I am reminded of the fact that I am here to play a game, and the items I lose are in fact, made of text. I can worry and lament oocly for their loss or I can work icly to cope and move on. If someone icly decides to lord over me that they have my things, well good for them, they've outed themselves and in the future I just may as well recruit others to smush them. Until then I am content that I am made by me and not what I wear. Gwain would be Gwain if he were naked, I would still rp as best as I could. Items are fleeting, do what you can, serve your rp. If you are going into battle with a notorious thief, hand your relics off to someone you trust, or just have hope they will be there if you fall. In stories brave men and women lose items that are powerful and meaningful, they suffer for it, then move on. Sometimes they will earn the chance to retrieve them (nothing is sweeter than revenge well earned) sometimes they do not. Do you best to be the best at what you do and if you suspect ooc motive behind theft of items or that certain pc's are looting things they should not (symbols should scar and burn the hand of faith enemies, imagine the essence of a god in a holy icon in the antithesis of a god imo) have faith and seek ic means to reaquire them or take the moral high road and move on. Have fun, never play angry or leave angry and don't let others make it their business to ruin a great experience for you or you for them. Remember it is just a game.

Scylere · Post by **Scylere** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:38 am

We could argue this for a long time and each give our personal views on what is the "moral high road", but the question is: in the game as a whole, is taking items after a pkill beneficial to the game or detrimental?

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:23 am

Mariela wrote:To use a real example, When you and your evil homies are chilling on a road, and you see a band of 5 goodies come up to you and start talking smack, PERHAPS someone in the group of ten should be responsible enough to talk to everyone and get verification that a PKill can go down and see who is all right with that, and who is not. Find out if anyone in the group is going to be upset by getting an object taken, ect.

In my opinion, though, if you are responsible enough to be in a group and start talking "smack" to a group that is obviously of the opposite alignment, then wouldnt it be obvious that there is the possibility of a pk there?

Taking items in pks:

If you are so worried about your items, then dont pk. Dont be in a situation that a pk might occur. If its not in your character's roleplay to back down, then the possibility of an item being taken is something you have accepted as the consequences of rping your character like that.

Is it detrimental to the game? No. It is a consequence to being in a pk situation. If there werent consequences, then there wouldnt be anything really to discourage your character from being in a pk. Taking an item gives you something to think about in the consequences of this player kill. I firmly disagree with taking an item and then going and selling it, if you arent going to set up a roleplay where they can get it back, at least keep it on you.

So my vote? No, it isnt detrimental. In a game where a ressurection takes a few minutes (usually), you need something there to make people think twice about engaging in a pk.

Of course, feedback is always welcome,
Thanks,

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:27 pm

From my limited amount of play, I have noticed that the majority of pkills are started by a character who is stronger than the others (higher level, etc). Rarely do you ever see a low level character challenge a high level character.

No, you just see low level characters push the high levels and expect not to have some consequence for their IC actions in return for the pushing because they're lower level.

Agreeing with Glim WHOLEHEARTEDLY here.

You want to poke the tiger in it's cage? You want to talk the bad talk? It's GOING to bite you. In other words, you get smart with an evil and 'talk smack' they're going to hurt you.

Frankly, I'm tired of goodlies 'talking smack' then leaving the room and roleplay. Don't start the fire if you can't take the heat, hoho.

Lukon · Post by **Lukon** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:38 pm

I feel the need to offer a counter-argument.

Being evil isn't tantamount to being someone who off an' kills people over words. Especially not immediately. There are MUCH better ways to get back at people, and while many people are those that "you do not screw with", being hunted down at the least slight to someone who is "eeeeh-vihl" just makes people want to avoid RP with evils to begin with. And, from my experience, evils are stronger than you. Almost always.

Note: I've had some very satisfying RP as a goody with evils. I've also had "You are here. I am here. Eat my powar!" levels of RP. More than one of "that guy" gets really old.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:52 pm

Glim wrote:If you are so worried about your items, then dont pk. Dont be in a situation that a pk might occur. If its not in your character's roleplay to back down, then the possibility of an item being taken is something you have accepted as the consequences of rping your character like that.

The problem enters in when the person PKed isn't given a real chance to back down. Sorry, but I've been both witness to, and the recipient of, PKills that consist of the attacker doing one single smote and hitting murder, with little or no warning. In some cases, done so consistently and free flowing among different PKills that it seems they have a pkill alias set to fire of the smote and then the murder.

I also have an issue with players who just dive into the murder with no discussion OOC of whether it will be to stun, kill, etc. As well as an issue with just launching into a stun or kill mode battle, when we even have helps that say:

Players are encouraged to use 'stun mode' and
'nofight mode' in any player kill and to use as many smotes and
taunts as possible. A playerkill that is found to have
insufficient roleplay will most likely lead to the character
getting a strike.

I'll gladly edit the help entry, if this isn't the case anymore; we need consistent rulings across the different media for the rules.

I firmly disagree with taking an item and then going and selling it, if you arent going to set up a roleplay where they can get it back, at least keep it on you.

Yeah, then decide you don't wanna play anymore, or decide you don't wanna play just the particular alt anymore, then fade away, with all the items you took off your pkills, and violate the "help loot" rule, which *requires* you to allow RP to get the taken item back. Setting up roleplay for the item's recovery isn't an option, it's a mandate.

Nicolya · Post by **Nicolya** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:17 pm

As a psuedo-newbie I had my first PK experience a couple of weeks ago and.. it was rather lackluster. I really dont mind dying for the story. There was some great roleplaying going on between both sides. Then it seemed instantly someone pulled out a spell that left us all paralyzed as they then proceeded to kill us off. No ooc talk of stun or setting up the combat. That sort of sucked, to be blunt.
Then to get your corpse back and find something was taken, and trying to find out who has the item, if they are going to log in again or even give me a chance to get it back also leaves me a little frustrated.
But i wont give up. I just wanted to share with you the experience I had with my first PK. I am not in favor of people taking more than one item if they are not going to stay around and role play with you. Set a ransome, or even make it where you can get to them.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:27 pm

Gwain would be Gwain if he were naked

PLEASE people, I was EATING when I read that.

Keep the comments coming. I have my personal opinion but would like for the discussion to run its course and have the imms discuss your comments amongst ourselves, then we can post something definitive. The rules may change, they may not, but rational, well-stated discussions are always welcome.