Some of the recent roleplay in Waterdeep has led me to want to write concerning the mentality of players with regards to law in Faerun. It's troubling to see people imposing a very modern, litigious sense of law and justice onto Faerun and the game. The probelm is not limited to this subject; Kregor recently touched on the idea of not imposing modern ideas on the game in a post about racial interaction in Faerun.
I'd venture to suggest that the majority of FK players come from Western countries with highly litigious societies where frivolous lawsuits and highly intrusive laws are the norm. I'm not trying to make this into a debate on modern law but I'm saying that we as players need to be careful not to bring that kind of mentality into the game.
The specific example I'm talking about was essentially this: unwanted touching and a slap to the face was discussed as assault and labeled a matter for the watch. In any medieval society, Faerun and probably most places outside of Greenwich, CT and Beverly Hills, CA (USA) a lawman would laugh at you.
Everyone is, of course, free to their own opinions and can roleplay their character however they wish but even lawful places like Waterdeep or Cormyr do not run on our modern legal models.
Law on Faerun
Law on Faerun
"A man may die yet still endure if his work enters the greater work, for time is carried upon a current of forgotten deeds, and events of great moment are but the culmination of a single carefully placed thought." - Chime of Eons
Re: Law on Faerun
I'd rather have the event reported to the guards then having the other person take their sword out and slash away in response.Harroghty wrote:
The specific example I'm talking about was essentially this: unwanted touching and a slap to the face was discussed as assault and labeled a matter for the watch. In any medieval society, Faerun and probably most places outside of Greenwich, CT and Beverly Hills, CA (USA) a lawman would laugh at you.
IN most situations the law relies on where the action occurs, when the action occurs, why the action occurs and who saw the action occuring. Consider that a set of laws has begun to be implemented in Waterdeep, these are not the laws for the whole of Faerun, but are the laws for Waterdeep. Though they are to be enforced by police, laws and procedures are also judged by those that enforce the laws. I think it might go too far to say that it affects the whole of Faerun, laws very from land to land, Waterdeep might have a set of laws tailored to it's current situation, Zhentil Keep might as well as would Westgate. Not everyone thinks the same about the actions of others, while they might demand satisfaction in combat or the courts some might shrug it off and not bother reporting it ot the watch. If it happens, my advice is to do your best to rp with it, or if you feel it is unseemly or inappropriate to the timeline you could icly seek out members of the watch or city officials and alert them that people are wasting the watch's time, or one could go further and ignore the problem if it is minute as long as they rp it. For example, Farmer A slaps Farmer B in the market, three things that could occur:
They go to the field
They laugh and make up
Someone gets worried a ruckus is coming and tries to signal the watch
and various other scenarios.
Take things with a grain of salt and try to go with them icly, if they do not make sense, you can claim that in a way you think best icly. Do your best and follow the laws as fits with your doghma, ethos, rp, alignment and everything should go well
They go to the field
They laugh and make up
Someone gets worried a ruckus is coming and tries to signal the watch
and various other scenarios.
Take things with a grain of salt and try to go with them icly, if they do not make sense, you can claim that in a way you think best icly. Do your best and follow the laws as fits with your doghma, ethos, rp, alignment and everything should go well
May you find the knowledge you seek. If you find something else, it is still knowledge, and as such, still a gain.
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Raona
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Pragmatism - IC and OOC
Harroghty, thank you for bringing this up. (...and Oghma and Exer, thanks for your comments - you took the words...well, most of them...right out of my mouth.)
I feel this is (another) case where you can't realistically disconnect the OOC and IC aspects of the game completely. In addition to local variations in matters of law, and the latitude players have to decide whether having their character's gender changed (or being made to wet themselves, or what have you) trigger an escalation, a chuckle, or a complaint to the Watch (as both Exer and Oghma brought up), there's an OOC spectre of perceived favoritism that we are struggling with as Lawriters. To the extent possible, we are trying to make the laws clear, with sharp boundaries, so that people do not unknowingly walk over them. Granted, law enforcement will still have to make many judgement calls. But by not leaving it to Watch discression to decide what constitutes assault, we make it possible for players to decide if they want to initiate a (potential) RP involving law enforcement. If the law is clear and simple, and a PC breaks it, crossing over the line of mere words to action, they are guilty of assault. The punishment remains a matter of discression. The first such offence will likely be dealt with generously, if it involves something like a slap. But a pattern of slapping people (and pulling the Watch away from the important job of guarding the city to deal with it) most likely will lead to progressively more serious consequences. I don't think this out of character for the time. In practice, Watch members would likely have to come to think of person X as a trouble-maker before they came down on them for slapping someone. Though that would indubitably depend on who they slapped, as well. Unfortunately, at least for the sake of realism, such realism runs the risk of being seen as playing OOC favorites. Sure, a real IC Watchman might ignore a slap to a stranger, but come down harshly on a slap to a friend. But given the readily-abused power vested in Watch members, and the fact there is an OOC reality out there, I feel it needs to be tempered somewhat with clear rules for the Watch to enforce. If someone hits another person, they are guilty of assault and will be arrested and sentenced. Period. End of story. The sentence will depend on the nature of the crime, and past issues with the law. The duty of the Watchman is clear, and thus they do not present the image of favoritism, arresting some and ignoring others.
ICly, I don't think it beyond the pale that in the interests of commerce, the Lords of Waterdeep wish to avoid all forms of physical confrontation within the city walls, and choose to punish all who engage in it, even if they "didn't start it." A more arbitrary system of Justice might be more typical of the time, but this I think is within the realm of plausibility and it reduces the hazards of [perceived] OOC unfairness.
I feel this is (another) case where you can't realistically disconnect the OOC and IC aspects of the game completely. In addition to local variations in matters of law, and the latitude players have to decide whether having their character's gender changed (or being made to wet themselves, or what have you) trigger an escalation, a chuckle, or a complaint to the Watch (as both Exer and Oghma brought up), there's an OOC spectre of perceived favoritism that we are struggling with as Lawriters. To the extent possible, we are trying to make the laws clear, with sharp boundaries, so that people do not unknowingly walk over them. Granted, law enforcement will still have to make many judgement calls. But by not leaving it to Watch discression to decide what constitutes assault, we make it possible for players to decide if they want to initiate a (potential) RP involving law enforcement. If the law is clear and simple, and a PC breaks it, crossing over the line of mere words to action, they are guilty of assault. The punishment remains a matter of discression. The first such offence will likely be dealt with generously, if it involves something like a slap. But a pattern of slapping people (and pulling the Watch away from the important job of guarding the city to deal with it) most likely will lead to progressively more serious consequences. I don't think this out of character for the time. In practice, Watch members would likely have to come to think of person X as a trouble-maker before they came down on them for slapping someone. Though that would indubitably depend on who they slapped, as well. Unfortunately, at least for the sake of realism, such realism runs the risk of being seen as playing OOC favorites. Sure, a real IC Watchman might ignore a slap to a stranger, but come down harshly on a slap to a friend. But given the readily-abused power vested in Watch members, and the fact there is an OOC reality out there, I feel it needs to be tempered somewhat with clear rules for the Watch to enforce. If someone hits another person, they are guilty of assault and will be arrested and sentenced. Period. End of story. The sentence will depend on the nature of the crime, and past issues with the law. The duty of the Watchman is clear, and thus they do not present the image of favoritism, arresting some and ignoring others.
ICly, I don't think it beyond the pale that in the interests of commerce, the Lords of Waterdeep wish to avoid all forms of physical confrontation within the city walls, and choose to punish all who engage in it, even if they "didn't start it." A more arbitrary system of Justice might be more typical of the time, but this I think is within the realm of plausibility and it reduces the hazards of [perceived] OOC unfairness.
There is also this to think about.
Yes. Most medevil people would ignore two farmers having a round about fight. Until they started to carry that fight into another person, and then another, and then another, ect ect ect.
There is also that idea that if someone is being beaten down to be forced into slavery, especially in Waterdeep proper, that might be looked down upon.
Or if someone honestly thought their life was in danger. I have always seen the watch jump when people have been attacked to death. Just because a PC is not a mindless NPC doesn't mean that a simple slap cannot be interpreted as a step to the path of being murdered.
The thing is also this, Laws are not the only thing that people have a modern interpretation of. If you want to be honest, men and women are not equal until the 1900's and even then.. it's tangental at best until the 1960ish. When was the last time you saw someone play beyond basic chivarly between the sexes? We should give latitdue to one another as adventurers but at the end of the day...
I would like to point out that I am just pinching the devil's advocate, especially on the woman thing. Don't throw fruit!
Yes. Most medevil people would ignore two farmers having a round about fight. Until they started to carry that fight into another person, and then another, and then another, ect ect ect.
There is also that idea that if someone is being beaten down to be forced into slavery, especially in Waterdeep proper, that might be looked down upon.
Or if someone honestly thought their life was in danger. I have always seen the watch jump when people have been attacked to death. Just because a PC is not a mindless NPC doesn't mean that a simple slap cannot be interpreted as a step to the path of being murdered.
The thing is also this, Laws are not the only thing that people have a modern interpretation of. If you want to be honest, men and women are not equal until the 1900's and even then.. it's tangental at best until the 1960ish. When was the last time you saw someone play beyond basic chivarly between the sexes? We should give latitdue to one another as adventurers but at the end of the day...
I would like to point out that I am just pinching the devil's advocate, especially on the woman thing. Don't throw fruit!
Confusion heard his voice, and wild uproar Stood ruled, stood vast infinitude confined;
Till at his second bidding darkness fled, Light shone, and order from disorder sprung.
--John Milton
Till at his second bidding darkness fled, Light shone, and order from disorder sprung.
--John Milton
To speak to the question of the sexes though... female adventurers abound in FR sources and, in the majority of the books I've read, are treated relatively equitably. Furthermore, I'm not out to run anyone up the gallows over this.. I just wanted to throw it out there as food for thought for all of us - myself included. I'm not suggesting that we change anything about the legal system as it's coded, only that we as players think about how we react to things in game.
"A man may die yet still endure if his work enters the greater work, for time is carried upon a current of forgotten deeds, and events of great moment are but the culmination of a single carefully placed thought." - Chime of Eons
I can answer that for elves. In one of the handbooks, it was writing thatmales and females are equal before all society. If someone can find the book to give the exact source I would be so welcome.Mariela wrote: The thing is also this, Laws are not the only thing that people have a modern interpretation of. If you want to be honest, men and women are not equal until the 1900's and even then.. it's tangental at best until the 1960ish. When was the last time you saw someone play beyond basic chivarly between the sexes? We should give latitdue to one another as adventurers but at the end of the day...
On the other hand, just thinking, places like Zazesspur, Calimshan in south, or Sembians in east might see women less creatures than men. I am not sure about it, just guessing. I would also assume that kind of a relation might exist in orc or goblin clans etc.
I know orcs see women as useful for only one thing. HOWEVER, there are female orc fighters. These, according to orc info, have to fight doubly hard to be recognised or even respected in any orc clan. So there is a major gender inequality in orcdom.
If you have knowledge, let others light their candles with it.
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
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Zach
As far as A slapping B... B would have to press charges against A... if B didn't want to press charges against A then A would get away with it.
If B pressed charges, then A would get a punishment... If it was found that A was slapping many people and running. Then was caught and B wanted to press charges... A would get maximum punishment...
At least this is what the Lawmakers are trying to accomplish...
If you have your comments... (comments only please) the we have OPEN lawmakers meetings and would like to have more involvement with the citizens of waterdeep...
If B pressed charges, then A would get a punishment... If it was found that A was slapping many people and running. Then was caught and B wanted to press charges... A would get maximum punishment...
At least this is what the Lawmakers are trying to accomplish...
If you have your comments... (comments only please) the we have OPEN lawmakers meetings and would like to have more involvement with the citizens of waterdeep...