Final Showdown?

[Lukon]

One of the things that negatively impacts RP on FK and any game with Raise Dead, at least in my opinion, is the loss of the fear of death, as more than a character hindrance: lose some stuff, lose some XP, but you'll live, one way or another. I've come up with an RP-centric way to permanently die.

A duel to absolute death.

Basically, a command would have to be made to offer this duel, and then the participant would have to accept. Both would then have to accept the terms, this limiting 'accidents' and maybe allowing for a more formal duel system than OOC killmode and go. If they choose 'absolute death', the fallen person will permanently die, and go on to whatever fate the gods have for them.
All entirely voluntary. I have a character or two who would except this sort of duel?

Do you think it's a good idea?

As a side note, if these 'formal duels' could function to exchange glory points back and forth, maybe once an in-game year, that would also be a great idea.

[Gwain]

I really don't support this, sure there are some who treat death as a minor inconvience, but I do not think it impacts on the game negatively. You have the choice of rping your death properly or not and suffering with rp and such. You can stay dead as long as you want, or live relatively easy. Any permanent death should be applied for and come after a huge amount of rp. I see the chance for abuse in this, with items given away in death and such, or people changing their minds after they die but not being able to return. I would say that for permadeath it should be treated on a case by case basis involving payment through kismet and not completely automated.

[Mitchell]

This idea was discussed extensively, here:

http://www.forgottenkingdoms.com/board/ ... permadeath

I remember reading about it here and there elsewhere, but this thread had most of the discussion. I think there was some talk particularly of new pkill rules down in Menzo to facilitate inter-house intrigue and conflict, but it never got off of the ground.

[Lukon]

I've read the previous thread, and it covered the concept of 'oh, well, I died' in a broader sense. I'm just recommending a tool for a variety of PvP interactions, as well as a better way to document what was an RPed PvP and what was 'I'm bigger, we're fighting'.

I like Gwain's comments on making perma-death a bit more complicated than a few commands, though. I just want it to be a real danger, somehow. If perma-death is too strong, how about total to near-total level loss. Same skills, etc, but you're now level 10 again, or even less?

[Japcil]

I'd lean more to a stat loss then level.

Say a 20% chance when you die, you lose two or three random stats that the code chooses.

If you simply go down in levels then you can regain stat points. Thus allowing people to die in order to max out all their stats.

[Mitchell]

If you simply go down in levels then you can regain stat points. Thus allowing people to die in order to max out all their stats.

Actually, when you go down in level, your stat and feat points decrease at the same levels you gained them - i.e. if you drop from level 40 to level 39, you will lose the stat and feat points you gained when you went up to 40, even if you've already spent those points. It even appears in your score as negative points.

[Rennick]

I must say I agree with Gwain. I think that the penalty to those who RP death poorly...is the loss of RP. People are RP correctly see this, and can tell the difference between good RP and bad RP. I hope my thoughts are coming out clearly...but it seems the current situation is right, and we should not disturb it because others wish to limit themselves with less or poor RP.

[Ceara]

I don't think the death system should be changed at all. I also see too much chance for abuse. I was once challenged to a permanent death situation because someone wanted to get rid of my character for ooc reasons and was using a buddy to do it. In the end I somehow won which was amazing thank god for blade barrier, but was certainly the underdog. The person who said they were going to permadeath didn't. So I really don't like that idea. Also the loss of stats, it's bad enough to lose con if you have to reincarnate. I would agree with level loss but not stat loss. Also you already do lose levels in some cases.
I think that if you see someone taking death far too lightly IE saying I don't care if I die my god or so and so will just bring me back, that they should be called on it. Also if they claim their god will bring them back perhaps that god should get involved? Or let them know in a polite and helpful way, that it shouldn't be taken so lightly and why etc... or refer them to NC or Imms for help.

[Scylere]

I like the rp that comes with the pkill and death system we have now.

[Lukon]

I'll respectfully retract the perma-death aspect, but what about the rest? Maybe a system to wager a small amount of unspent glory on a fight? This could be limited by time, location, or other downsides, to keep 'potential twinkery' at bay. But a system like this could make a well-RPed PvP combat have a bit more to gain or lose.

I for one would love to have wizard's duels, grudge matches, etc, with glory on the line.

[Aldren]

Why would it have glory on the line? Glory is renown and how well known you are. Having a grudge match with a brawler that you've a rivalry with shouldn't make you more well known to the common folk of the realms.

[Nicolya]

If you mean glory as in glory points, I disagree.
If you mean glory in the way of something like bragging rights, then I can see that.

There is a system in place from what I understand already to allow for duels, fights to the death, and the like. I personally dont see a need for the coders to make a new system, when I am sure there are many other things on their plate that have a bigger impact on the mud.

By all means though, challenge your fellow mages to duels. Set your limits, and agree to the rules. Or grab a rapier and challenge the next person who insults you.

[Harroghty]

In response to Aldren's question: you can, historically speaking, ask George Silver or St.Pierre. In modern terms, ask a fighter in the UFC or a professional boxer. I'm not sure where I stand on Lukon's idea, I tend to agree with the previous post about it not being the number one thing to focus on right now, but I definitely see how such a fight could generate glory for a player. Victory spells reknown if the fight is talked about, and certainly a duel (which implies an arrangement, and therefore the chance to be observed) would be talked about.

[Daediana]

What if instead we didn't do a permante death sort of thing, but gave an opportunity to the priests or priestesses that raise dead when a roleplay is going on, that if we raise them and they don't rp it well enough (which I have seen this previously done task wise) that they have a task to perform, or something that will teach them that death is something important, and valued, and make it so that the Raise Dead effect after you are raised doesnt wear off until the Priest/Priestess uncasts it... when they complete their task... I think this will make death a little more important or something like that... Does this make any sense? Anyone agree?

[Raona]

I'm not sure how the coding would have to go, but this seems a good way to make people follow up on a raising RP. Unfortunately, I fear with the "target audience" it may merely make them all the more likely to turn to an NPC priest rather than a PC, which already takes more effort.

I guess another possibility would be some consequence of being raised frequently, by whatever route, possibly including a longer period of time being affected by "raise dead," though. Again, that comes to coding, but perhaps not so hard. A "death" count could be started, with one death being subtracted from the total every, say, RL month. When raised, the duration of "raise dead" could be multiplied by the number in the "death" count, perhaps.

[Lerytha]

Most priests give people who are raised from the dead a task to perform anyway. Its a great chance for RP, ICly realistic and... it probably also gives priests the chance to deny someone the chance to be raised from the dead if they never complete the task given.

I don't think we need more coded reductions on raise dead.

Nor do I think we need a drastic overhaul to the PKILLING/death things.

I did quite like the idea of "betting" glory on the outcome of a duel. It makes IC sense. Remember that glory is reknown and fame. So, Elminster of Shadowdale, glory 101 challenges Manshoon, glory 99 to a duel. In the course of the battle, Elminster wins and Manshoon suffers a knock to his reputation. Depending on how much was at stake in the duel (ie, how much glory the PC "betted"), he loses much more face.

Examples of in-game?

Well, what about a Talassan mage who tries to burn down Ardeep forest. A Chauntean mage turns up, and in that momentary OOC moment before PKILL they agree to "bet" a certain amount of glory on the outcome. The Talassan wins, unfortunately, and the word spreads (ie, he gains glory) that he has managed to defeat a Chauntean in its own territory. Of course for the Chauntean, the rumours abound that perhaps she is weaker than people had thought...

It adds a much greater dimension to PK which I would love to see. How feasible it is however, I don't know.

~Ol

[Taeron]

I have a question, if glory is reknown, how do characters know how much glory another character has? I mean someone that maybe plays at a diffrent time than another may have more glory than someone that plays at a more "populated" time. Is there anyway we can make it so we can know peoples glory?

[Layna]

I have a few slight concerns here - the first being a teeny nagging feeling that if people can gain glory via PKing people... will that lead to an increase in the amount of PKs happening?

The second point being that it is my understanding that, because they have fewer quests, evils will tend to have less glory than goods, which is in part related to my third worry:

If we start treating glory points as IC knowledge it might lead to problems with the way characters view one another. Plenty of people get lots of RP glory, but perhaps lack it in a code sense because they've not run around doing all the quests.

I don't like the idea of absolute death, and I see very few people getting on board with that idea - even though I agree that death is treated too lightly (which is a discussion that's taken place many times and looks unlikely to be resolved). If PC priests have the ability to penalise the characters they raise, then those who are treating it lightly will just go to NPC ones. In fact they probably do already. So how about making NPC raises 'worse' than PC ones? For example - having the 'raise dead' effect last longer and hit harder?

[Lerytha]

In a sense, I feel that glory corresponds to the fame of a character amongst the "plebs", the everyday, happy-go-lucky normal people who do normal things. They think of "Sir Fightalot, who slew six dragons and helped in this quest and that quest", and Sir Fightalot's glory represents the spreading of those tales.

It is the reason we gain glory for completing quests. You can imagine the hunched men over pints in the local tavern going, "oh, did ye here about that there elven paladin... aye, he went and saved Lady Cassandra Thann from them there blasted evil goblins, innit?"

That's what glory is.

As to whether PCs should see glory? No. Because, the PCs represent adventurers, and adventurers have their separate way of judging things. In a sense, the reknowned people amongst the "adventurer" society, are those we see when we type the "who" list.

Glory for NPCs
Who List for PCs

~Ol