Stats

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:28 pm

I can assure you that this stat point attribution is not part of any kind of character concept. The low Wisdom and low Charisma are not part of a roleplay.

Have a little faith in me!

Lukon · Post by **Lukon** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:33 pm

Sorry, then. I'm just looking out for what I call 'RPs of excellence'. The elven deep-forest fighter with a hard-earned hardy constitution. The wicked goblin ex-slave who has aims of ruling his people with an iron fist and a devious, devious mind.

The human without a sense of entitlement and ownership to all the land he sees.

You know, the rare, amazing few? Hehe. Thank you for allaying my concerns, Dalvyn.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:42 pm

I do not think you got what I meant.

I do not mind the high stats.

What I mind is the low stats that are not roleplayed.

If you have a low Strength (if you "sacrifice" your strength to be able to get a high Charisma for example), you have no choice but to take this low stat into consideration. You will constantly be laden down, you won't be able to carry much, you won't hit mobs as much.

A low wisdom or a low charisma, on the other hand, are currently "hidden" though. And what I do not find fair (thus the consequences that I mentioned above) is to set low (minimal) scores in those stats and NOT roleplay them. That is, for example, using minimal charisma, but roleplaying in a way to get many allies and hiring several pets and minions. Or having a low wisdom and roleplaying as a wise character.

I have nothing against characters who have high stats. On the other hand, I don't like characters who have a low stats but do not roleplay it because I consider it cheating.

Lukon · Post by **Lukon** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:01 pm

Oh, agreed, agreed.

A low stat is too fun to play to leave it be. I know that low wisdoms are ridiculously good times. "Hey, that dragon just winked at me! Nobody winks at me!"...is the beginning of hilarity.

So, yes. Make Dalvyn happy. Be uncharismatic and dumb.

As a side note...what are your thoughts in the IC ramifications of a low charisma. My personal example is an 'offensive' CHA PC. Doesn't his RP interfere deeply into getting into many guilds, like the faiths for priests, or the Ranger's guild? But code-wise, there's no such limit...is there an issue here, or does no OOC accomodation need to be made?

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:34 pm

Lukon wrote:So, yes. Make Dalvyn happy. Be uncharismatic and dumb?

It's not about making me happy. It's about playing fairly.

And instead of playing uncharismatic and dumb - which I have not seen anybody do correctly anyway -, I'd rather have people put some points into all stats instead of clearly min-maxing only the stats that give them coded benefits.

Nedylene · Post by **Nedylene** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:30 pm

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject:

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I have not met a hard core D&D player yet that the first things out of their mouth was the story in which their character was in. It has ALWAYS been about their stuff and stats. Always.

This I do not entirely agree with. I used to be a very hard core AD&D player between the ages of 16-19.I played alot of campaigns but during that time there was one continuous campaign where I played a drow priestess of Lloth. From her entry into the party of falling out of a spider's cacoon to her departure where she was thrust on a ship on the surface in a quest for Lloth her story was one I loved. Every single character in the party was developed by our DM with pros, cons, set backs and pushes foreward. It ALL depends on the DM.

But... this is not tabletop. This is a game. Min-maxing is something that is hard to avoid. One of the new changes which will be coming in makes me very very wary for this one fact.

Trading Glory for an extra stat point.

It makes me cringe.. it makes me wince and it makes me want to stamp up and down and go no no no. Before you had to carefully pick and choose your stats because you only had so many stat points. So you had to sacrifice this stat or that stat so you could raise this stat. I liked that you can earn a new feat point but the stat point just raises the red flags for me. I know alot of people will disagree with me.

Before I left I had even at one time applied to get a certain character's charisma lowered (before the new character creation system) because when she got spit out of the character creation I personally felt it was too high for her. And yes, it was more on an rp sence. She is meant to be annoying, waiflike, emanciated and short.. very very short. With a tattoo that makes her hands look diseased. Never made sence to me why merchants would haggle with her or that she would get bonuses to anything because of it. At the time they did lower it 2 points although I would be curious to know what her stats are FOR numbers.

And I think I lost the point of this post..

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:30 am

Mariela wrote:I have not met a hard core D&D player yet that the first things out of their mouth was the story in which their character was in. It has ALWAYS been about their stuff and stats. Always.

Pity... I grew up through middle school and high school, and then into college, with whole groups of D&D people who some sessions, we wouldn't even roll the dice. We were those "wierd" ones who actually talked the parts of our characters as we played around the table. There are people who actually ROLE play, rather than ROLL play D&D.

But I digress

Maybel · Post by **Maybel** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:27 am

Kregor wrote:We were those "wierd" ones who actually talked the parts of our characters as we played around the table.

I've never had the chance to privilege to play in a LARP... or even played table top.... The close that I have been... is playing FK

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:43 am

http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivatio ... et111.html

Reminds me of the days when traits/flaws where popular. Its amazing how people would gimp their characters just for a few extra points.

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:51 pm

Those days are over Rhytania?

I discovered after the first character who's flaws sucked that no matter how many points you get back for negatives, THEY ARE NEVER WORTH IT! For that matter, Mertis are never worth it either... they are just flaws in disguise!

Actually they were always fun regardless cause they did add a irrefutable story element to your character, which was what their purpose was. But.... the point mongerer's kill me.

My favorite people to stare at lately is a few people who do "Sheet shifting". So they make a character, and with the first batch of experiance they receive, they slide points around to gain more things cheaper on your sheet.

I'm from one of those schools that once you are done with Character Generation you are stuck wtih those points and you can only add and the storyteller can only subtract... the mathematicians are just boggling my brain....

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:36 am

Nedylene wrote:Trading Glory for an extra stat point.

It makes me cringe.. it makes me wince and it makes me want to stamp up and down and go no no no. Before you had to carefully pick and choose your stats because you only had so many stat points. So you had to sacrifice this stat or that stat so you could raise this stat. I liked that you can earn a new feat point but the stat point just raises the red flags for me. I know alot of people will disagree with me.

Bearing in mind though, that the current crop of PCs get one stat point per five levels, and as I recall, wasn't the original progression on FK like, one stat point every three, or two?

If that's the case, then any one character I've created since I started playing would have to redeem, on my best calculation, either 200 or 300 glory worth of stat points, at the going rate of 20 glory per point, just to have the same edge as the legacy characters. My longest played character doesn't even have that much total glory.

Not griping, because it doesn't matter to me, I'm here to roleplay. It's just to illustrate a point.

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:58 am

I am going to defend the Glory point converstion.

Why?

Cause I want to be able to do something with the bloody points! I'd kill for something to use my kismet on too!

Why?

Cause I don't play exotic races. Sorry folks, the most exotic I get is a sun elf. I don't know who to RP some of the more exotic things so I haven't gotten up to doing so. I hate the fact I have thousands of kismet just winking back at me..... they are watching me. I'd love to be able to buy.. er.. horseshoes with them. Convert them into coin.. something!

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:56 pm

Mariela wrote:I'd kill for something to use my kismet on too!

Hee hee! Well-earned be your kismet, Mari...but it is an OOC measure of your RP, and so really not something that should be turned into any sort of IC reward...even horseshoes. But you can use it to REWARD others for good RP, and to back up requests for renames of cherished items, OOC things like that.

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:00 pm

Now, do not get me wrong Raona. Do I think my character should benefit randomly from stuff. No. No pickaxes from the sky because I can role play.

However, it would be nice to be able to use it for something. For the most part, it is a measure of how much time and energy you devote to the game. The more kismet you have, the more likely you have gotten it from other people.. or heck, you just spend time with the game. For good or for ill, doesnt' matter. It's the fact you are here, and you are trying to make the game just as fun for the people around you as yourself.

Glory is great. I love it. However, we are able to convert it into stat points? How is that not along the same concideration? You shouldn't be double rewarded. Most quests give you a reward at the end of it, and you are getting glory you can use to enhance your stats?

Don't get me wrong, love being able to spend it on something.. and I'm under debate at this very moment! But you see my point.

In my mind, kismet is even MORE important than glory and should be treated as it is. Yet, there is no way to really use it other than to weigh if you can play this or that. Do I really want an object for it? No. However, as a weight in the grand scheme of things, the fact you get it from your peers...it'd be nice if it was as important to people as glory/quests.

And to make people care, obviously it needs to be used for something!

Oghma · Post by **Oghma** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:25 pm

Glory is scene from the perspective of ingame prestige earned through quests. The original purpose of kismet was to pay for things like special or rare races, allowance into certain areas quests and the usage of hometowns. Though, I am not completely sure how much this is still in effect. But, glory is something different entirely.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:59 pm

The concept of kismet is to restrict the usage of certain races to players who have had some experience on FK. It implies a certain knowledge of the game.

The concept of glory is different. It is given as rewards for completed quests and good, observable rp. These are currency for the statpoint conversion, renames, etc. Eventually, other purchase options will be added.

Hrosskell · Post by **Hrosskell** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:17 pm

Someone brought up stat math. This will probably make me come off as one of those evil min-maxers, but bear with me. I only started to understand stats after old code had went away, and it was 1 stat/5 levels, so I can only give you what Hross was coded under, and you'll see that even the "middle code" characters had an advantage. All the stats started at 13. One stat was at 15 (I believe, I've always been unsure about that) depending on class. You got 5 stats to add wherever you wanted. In new creation, all stats start at 10. You get 18 to add wherever you want. That's still the original eighteen by adding 3 to every stat naturally, and an extra seven from adding the five chosen and the class +2. Old, old code players got even more than that, and had no stat caps.

It is harder to allocate stats now. Is that a good thing? There is challenge in making a character, but is it challenge or overt difficulty? Is it wrong to be good at putting stats where they go to make a character "strong"? There is as much diversity as ever, but is that the player awareness that creates this or the stats they hashed out for their character? Is it too hard to be both aware and talented at the mathematical aspect of the game, and be a good roleplayer?

I like the challenge. I like the diversity. I don't understand the persecution of well-allocated characters, which may just be a perceived persecution. I ask purely for clarification. Also, don't get me wrong. Min-maxing is not something I support, or consider proper allocation of stats. Then again, I don't like ugly characters, so, maybe that's just my personal preferences speaking. But I don't think that anyone would advise me to make a fighter with a 12 strength and an 18 wisdom/charisma. The character would not logically choose the path of fighter and expect success if he were good at being a bard, you know? Just be a bard if you're good at being a bard.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:48 pm

You missed my point.

Of course, I am not advocating for all fighters to have a Strength of 14 and a Charisma of 18.

What I consider unfair though is this.

Player A wants to roleplay someone who manipulates others through natural charm and wits, and makes a character with a Charisma of 18 (natural charm and power of persuasion) and a Wisdom of 16 (knowing how to manipulate people, empathy). Since stat points are limited, that character can only have a Strength of 12 and a Constitution of 14. Player A constantly has to sit down and rest, because he gets quickly exhausted. He also can't hold his own in a solo combat due to his low strength, and constantly has to choose what item to keep and what item to abandon, because of the severe carrying restrictions imposed by his low strength.

Player B makes a character with Strength 18, Constitution 18, and drop the Wisdom and Charisma as low as can be, to 10. Player B has none of the problems I listed above for Player A: he can carry all he wants, he can beat down most mobs easily, he can run from Waterdeep to Zhentil Keep without having to rest. AND he never roleplays the low Wisdom or Charisma: he makes friends by roleplaying with others (who can't see his low Charisma anywhere in his roleplay); he has opinions about everything and uses his knowledge of the mud to always take the right decisions (even though his character wouldn't, because of his low Wisdom). THAT is what I disapprove.

And the player who just roleplays a low Charisma as a 'being ugly' from time to time, or who only roleplays the low Wisdom when taking an unwise decision does not matter much, is still cheating in my opinion.

Shabanna · Post by **Shabanna** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:01 pm

I would not agree with the earlier statement... that kismet is in any way more important than glory. To earn glory you have to DO something...to earn kismet all you really have to do is log.

You do not HAVE to RP with anyone or complete a task or even...move >.<. You just have to be logged on the game. Spending this stuff is always the last thing I think of

I prefer to shop ICLY with the coin I come across... lol *shpoholic characters unite*

That said...I am not one who watches my kismet or ...really cares a lot about it. I am not all about creating the newest coolest rare race or what have you but I have used it for things like Shabanna's preg RP and some other small expenditures... so indeed I would miss it if I had none. But, I mostly use it to reward other players since I personally do not need much of it for anything else. To me that is the real reward of kismet. I like when I get the chance to reward someone for an enjoyable,clever,interesting RP. However, to be honest I do not feel that high kismet holds that much water... as really all it indicates is a length of time spent logged.

It is a neat way to allow other players the chance to show gratitude for RP and such (and to me... that really is the best part.) Im not sure a new way to "spend it" is necessary or even a good plan. Since, in all honesty, a lot of kismet is really just a reward for exsisting. That is not to ignore the kismet earned through RP. But what people view as something rewardable is really subjective... and imho when I get a reward for RP I look at it as a way to pass it on to someone else. " yay! someone liked what I did.. now I have the chance to pass on that warm fuzzy feeling" And I tend to just give it away in the same day

or soon after.

and now I will stop my stream of consciousness rambling...

*you learn from your success and improve at blither* >.<

Happy weekend!
Banna

Neriadin · Post by **Neriadin** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:39 pm

First, I'd like to address what Leohand was talking about in the creation of low statistics. Playing a low-stat character can be both fun and quite challenging. I would prefer to start with all my stats at 3 and have more points to allocate in creation. That would allow a player to create the gruff and taciturn dwarf berzerker, the lithe elven ranger, or bumbling einstein wizard with stats to match. That being said, there'd also have to be caps on how many high/low stats one can have to reduce the impact of those who min/max.

Dalvyn's point about stat dumping is something I've seen for years. As a DM, I had the opportunity to enforce the roleplay of "dumped" stats. In game, however, that becomes more of a code problem. Dalvyn's idea of having those stats affect NPC reactions is a step in the right direction. The big problem, however, is enforcing the RP of those stats. There are not any "RP Cops" (aka DM's) to enforce such things. PC's have no clue what each other's stats REALLY are other than the player's RP. Dalvyn's point is that the min/max mindset does not RP those dumped stats and they enjoy an unfair advantage due to the way the game code uses the stats. If I were to use the example stats he presented on a PC, the result would be a military officer who is an excellent strategist, beats the crap out of anyone under him who doesn't agree with him, continues to argue his point after the general has told him to shut up, is a lousy tactician in the field because the "fog of war" concept is completely lost on him, and is the worst example of leadership from somewhere in the nine hells. Unfortunately, IRL there are way too many like him, but I digress. The point is that the character's RP doesn't match his stats and he still reaps the code advantages available. There are only two things that can be done about it. One is to make the other stats more valuable in game. The second is for the imm/staff to take more interest in that player (which I doubt they have time for) and call him on poor RP when they see it.

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pose: sitting crosslegged on the ground, contemplating the multiverse.
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