Hiding while wearing glowing items?

Aliatris · Post by **Aliatris** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:48 pm

Should be possible remain hidden and wearing something that glows or produce light?

Grom · Post by **Grom** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:21 pm

Err. Do you mean should it be possible to remain hidden while wearing glowing items? I think so..its a detriment for those who can sneak and hide to do so..and not be able to take any action. The games strives for realistic but this is a game..and some things have to be ..ignored to do it. In my opinion yes. At least until someone comes up with an antilight spell which works like lights..but allows for those who can..sneak hide to see decently. >< I wish we had darkvision in game. Certain races get it and it would help certain rp factors to be able to look around without a light.

Shabanna · Post by **Shabanna** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:28 pm

I have actually thought of this. I have come to assume that the skill takes into account that the rogue knows what they have to do to conceal themselves and their items and use the shadow or a crowd or landscape to their advantage. There is always a chance for you to fail... hide... based on your ability to conceal yourself and your things...including glowy stuff. That would be my take on it. I always assume that my rogue can shadows to their advantage to blend in...and they are clever enough to know the things that are going to give them away the more skilled they get.

Just my thoughts... though.. lol they may be way off base

feel free to shred me. lol

Banna

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:53 pm

I always just figured that if one wearing glowing items was trying to hide, they just covered said item with cloth or something while they were hiding. Even the dumbest character would know that hiding in the shadows while holding a torch doesn't work. Makes perfect sense for it to be assumed that the character covers the item while hiding.

On another note, I don't really see the point in coding a penalty to hiding when wearing glowing items as people will just take the items off and put them away resulting in the same affect I mentioned above. It pretty much just makes the time and effort put into making such an adjuctment useless.

Tretch · Post by **Tretch** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:38 pm

This is all fine and good but even if a "skilled" rogue is covering his glowing items and still being able to hide...

How does it make sense for him to do other actions with great skill?

Backstab
Stealing
etc etc

Doing everything while still hiding his multitude of glowing objects and still staying concealed?

...good rogue

Tempus · Post by **Tempus** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:32 pm

Personally I think the code should add a large -ve modifier to your hide/sneak checks if you are currently wearing/holding a light source. My reasoning is that you get the benefit of the lightsource (i.e. being able to see in a darkened room) without the drawbacks (i.e. being visible).

People have stated that they assume rogues wearing a lightsource remove it when hiding - I am willing to bet quite a lot of money that those thieves do not roleplay being unable to see at the same time, if they are of a race which do not have some form of infravision.

Amalia · Post by **Amalia** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:51 pm

My rogue does walk around with glowing bracers, and for the sake of ease I don't take them off when sneaking, but she does have blindfighting precisely because I picture a rogue like her as the type of individual who ought to be able to know what's going on even in the dark.

She's also an elf, and so would have infravision if the game were so coded, though, so between that and the ambient moon/starlight one has even on a country road at night, she would still by rights be able to see halfway decently so far as I'm aware.

I do also have a human rogue, who doesn't wear any lightsource while sneaking, but I could see it being acceptable if the PC in question were feeling around and listening instead of actually looking, and the player RP'd it that way. There isn't really a coded way to "feel" around a room, and there's no middle ground between fully lit and pitch black, so I think that a light source could reasonably be used responsibly to simulate these things-- although I freely grant that some might not be as responsible with it as they ought.

Oghma · Post by **Oghma** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:06 pm

Possible to set up a code enforce loss or negative point to hiding sneaking, sneak attacks or backstab when wearing a lightsource? Something like a torch or lamp has a negative already that it needs to be held, limiting the amount of weapons or items you can hold while it is used. Other items with glowing flags though could be set to limit your hiding, sneaking or other activities significantly. Though I much prefer thieves and rogues just rping closing the grate on their lamps, or tucking away their light sources when working in the shadows. It may be also possible to utilize negative lights or other sources of seeing later on for thieving. However I am fine with trusting that people will rp accordingly to their situations appropriately.

Nedylene · Post by **Nedylene** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:46 pm

Sneaking and light sources come from reality to game mechanics. I live in the forest... my favorite thing in the world is to take a walk through the forest with my dog in the middle of the night. I walk all the way to the lake and never have a problem seeing my way. I never bring any light with me. I like it because I can see the stars and it doesn't scare the animals away and while I have come across a deer who scared me more then I scared her..... That is besides the point. The point is that in the middle of the night I could walk in the dark and see.

Bring this to game now... I have a ranger who walks in the woods always. It will be just before the sun sets gametime and suddenly the world is plunged in darkness. And I can't remember which pack I put my light in. I can't look in my packs, can't see around me, my bear can't follow me because my bear can't see me so... I sit. Sit until the light comes or someone comes across me. Game mechanics and real life are very very different. While in real life I would not have to bring a light out... in game I do because the mechanics force me to. To put a permenant handicap on sneaking/hiding with a light source may be more 'realistic' it is not game friendly.

Ceara · Post by **Ceara** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:56 pm

Well said Nedylene.
If I could see as well in the dark in game as I do rl or my char had the infravision she should have inherently I wouldn't have light sources at all.

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:41 am

Dont' move sneakers and peekers have a back up plan for consealing their lights?

Most of the time in movies, when the people are going to be roaming about and need the darkness to conseal them.. they just throw a cloth over the light source, leaving enough to trickle out. That is why most lanterns have a shutter on them that has cracks.. plus it lets the oxygen in to not allow the light to extinquish!

I always assumed that if you were sneaking, you put some sort of cloth over the light and was using the bare minium light from it, or your eyes adjusted in the darkness so you could see.... Now do not ask me to explain how yout hrow a cover over a torch.. a Gond follower I am not. Ask the artificer!

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:50 am

I don't think current code allows your player to see even if someone else in the room has a light source, but you don't. If that's the case, it would be near impossible for a rogue to sneak attack (or spy on) anyone at night unless that code was also changed. I agree with the motivation behind the suggestion, mind you - but in practice, you could certainly see the cleric waltzing in with a lamp in HIS hands while you were hiding in the shadows.

Tretch · Post by **Tretch** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:25 am

Nedylene wrote:Sneaking and light sources come from reality to game mechanics. I live in the forest... my favorite thing in the world is to take a walk through the forest with my dog in the middle of the night. I walk all the way to the lake and never have a problem seeing my way. I never bring any light with me. I like it because I can see the stars and it doesn't scare the animals away and while I have come across a deer who scared me more then I scared her..... That is besides the point. The point is that in the middle of the night I could walk in the dark and see.

Bring this to game now... I have a ranger who walks in the woods always. It will be just before the sun sets gametime and suddenly the world is plunged in darkness. And I can't remember which pack I put my light in. I can't look in my packs, can't see around me, my bear can't follow me because my bear can't see me so... I sit. Sit until the light comes or someone comes across me. Game mechanics and real life are very very different. While in real life I would not have to bring a light out... in game I do because the mechanics force me to. To put a permenant handicap on sneaking/hiding with a light source may be more 'realistic' it is not game friendly.

Good points here Nedy. My smartarsedness aside, game mechanics and fun factor should always win IMO.

I stand corrected. Trust the chars to RP effectively and I see no issues.

Shabanna · Post by **Shabanna** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:22 am

I would like to interject that most of you seem to be assuming that a rogue will be hiding in the dark??? lol When in fact.. as a rogue most of my work is done in crowds or in places with objects that I can hide behind. I wear glowing items ( i do not use torches as my particular rogue would never dirty her hands on a torche BLEH

lol )

Tempus speaks that he imagines no rogue RPs darkness and being unable to see... etc... But you have to take into account that a rogue spends time training and improving their skills of BLENDING with the environment, using shadows and trees and rocks and carts and crowds to our advantage. The better you are at the skill the more challenging the environment you can "blend" or HIDE in...

Please... it is not INVISIBILITY and not used in the dark all the time. I know we are talking about light sources... but who is to say that in total darkness you would not be skilled enough ( You know... when you make that hide check and are successful) to find a way to use the shadows to your advantage? I think it would really be crappy to have my glowing items cause a negative to my rogue who already had to spend coin and time and effort learning to HIDE in her surroundings. If I am standing in a busy market with my glowing jewelry...and i find a way to blend into the busy crowd or duck behind a cart in broad daylight... WHY or WHY would those glowing items count against me?

I think this sounds a bit like a witch hunt. lol " Get those horrid rogues who are hiding and blackmailing us!!! "
I say... as long as a rogue is using Hide and sneak appropriately (i.e. Not using them as invisibility... and assuming that you can do things like make a puppet dance on your hand while still hiding

Which would be using the skill as invisibility rather than HIDING) There is no problem. Low level rogues are really bad at hide and sneak... and will often be seen anyway... If you are a higher level rogue who has trained your skill and can accomplish the hide and sneak without being detected then I would assume the skill already takes into account that you DEAL with things like "Hmm i have to do this unnoticed so I have to do X to get away with it." I assume that when I plunked down my coin to train and I put in my time on the game being worn out after hiding 3 times or sneaking through 2 rooms... that All this was PART of the hide skill.

Also I want to add that if you Backstab... or fail at steal you instantly are VIS

If I am hidden and quiet and then backstab someone .. no matter what I do... I am no longer hidden

so no... you can not fight hidden. Just for those of you who do not realize that

If people are not hiding and RPing such, before they backstab... then they would be abusing the backstab code... not the hide code ( and that is a different thread I believe >.< lol )

I think it is a bit catty of some to say "Well the rogues are a big bunch of cheater pants people cause they can hide with a glowing amulet around their neck and not RP having their sight line cut" Um ... I believe.. that a ROGUE. is a person skilled at things like sneaking around in low light areas and using thier cunning and cleverness and ingenuity to get around the obstacles that clunky clanky fighters can NOT! It is the ADVANTAGE that we get along with all the negatives such as... if we are not completely naked we have a harder chance of succeeding at EVERY Skill

I think many of you are thinking too much of the Hide skill as invisiblility or only being viable in total darkness and you are not thinking that .. without light... there is NO shadow.

Shabanna

Ceara · Post by **Ceara** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:04 am

Well said Shabanna and I agree completely.

Nasrialle · Post by **Nasrialle** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:50 pm

That was a really nice post Shabanna with a fantastic point. When a rogue hides during the day who is to say he is hiding in shadows? He could duck behind a tree, hide in a tree, hide behind a larger person in a crowd, or even dress so plainly that he can stand out in the open but not really grab anybody's attention. The majority of posts have made the definition of hiding very cut and dry. A person ducking in to shadows to avoid being seen. That really seems so unrealistic though. If people really want to make hiding a more realistic aspect of the game I think they need to put themselves in a variety of places and think of how they would hide to expand the definition to include a variety of situations.

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:18 pm

A very well presented post. However, for the sake of debate, I'll play the devils advocate.

First off, I don't see how hiding during the day with glowing objects is an issue. It's like looking directly into a flashlight during the day: It makes you wonder if the batteries are dead, but at night you blind yourself and have to fumble around because now not even the flashlight helps you see. So, I don't think hiding during the day is in question.

Second, it is true the you need light to create shadows, but at night, there are no shadows. Furthermore, you can't hide in your own shadow. If you are the light source, then you effectively eliminate any shadows you would be hiding in. I can speak from experience (as I am sure our other Marines and military members of any sort can) that even the minutest amount of light at night becomes blatantly obvious. When you add enhanced low light vision (elfvision in game/NVGs for us) that tiny amount of light stands out like the red sweater in a B/W movie.

Third, I did a little research and found that at night a candle can be seen from somewhere around 40 miles away. This is just an estimate, but even if you cut that down to a fourth and say 10 miles, you can safely say it is visible and quite detectable. This would be exagerated by races with accute sight such as elves. Plus, that light will radiate and reflect off of nearby objects and the ground. This means that even though you may put a rock between you and the people you are hiding from, it is still possible for them to see the light and go investigate. Even if you move and they don't find you, they are still going to get suspicious.

Now, this all doesn't mean I'm in favor of a penalty for wearing glowing objects while hiding. I'm not. What I am opposed to is people RPing out the full benefit of light while also RPing remaing completely concealed. This is ESPECIALLY when the person/people you are hiding from don't have a light. First because that gives you an advantage over them that you shouldn't have (being able to see while they can't). And second because if they don't have a light, their eyes will have dialated further allowing them to be more sensitive to light.

But in keeping with what Shabanna pointed out, high level hiders should be smart enough to know how to keep themselves concealed. If you are wearing 12 glowing items, I would expect them to know to put something on over them to cover them up. Also, the rogue would only be hiding while someone is around, so they will know when they need to cover their light and when they can uncover it a bit to move. If I remember correctly, rogues require 200 kismet or something like that to create so I think we are safe in trusting rogues to RP having a difficult time seeing while hidden at night, or simply just not moving at all.

To sum it all up: I don't think rogues should be penalized. I don't think rogues should RP the full benefits of lighting while hiding at night. I think that players can be trusted to RP partial benefits of lighting without any detriment to what they are trying to accomplish.

Shabanna · Post by **Shabanna** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:06 pm

Well first...
the daylight was brought in because if you start roundly giving out penalties for hiding while wearing a light source it will not take into account that it is daytime. SO rogues will be punished in the daylight.

Second I can not recall a single time... that my rogue has hidden in total darkness using a torch... in a broad area like...say... hiding in the plains at midnight.

Most of the time I am in a cavern or a cave or a city... Where it is not in total darkness... there are torches on the wall and it is a low light area so it is coded as dark... because we have no "shades of dakrness"

Im not trying to get away with something... or make use of a benefit without a negative. I put in my time as a NOOB rogue with alll the disadvantages that go along with it. I paid for the training and I use my skills ICLy and I RP when I use my skills. always have ... always will...

If I am hiding, more often than not, if it is at night... I am in a city. To be honest most rogues spend their time around people hiding in plain sight....and I am not sure I ever recall being in a group where the rogue was in total darkness hidden, holding a torch. I am not saying it never happens... but I am not sure the occurances really warrant this kind of picking over?

people seem okay with the idea that someone can hide their entire person under a cloak so that a banned race could sneak past an observant and diligent guard. So why is it we are splitting hairs over a glowing amulet? or ring? I do not see that huge negatives will do anything to benefit the game in this case.

And.... though I SEE the point you make about a candle being seen for a great distance in the dark IRL... we *are* playing a game...

Allow me to digress...When was the last time IRL...you could:

~Cast a lightning bolt or throw an acid arrow in the comfort of your own home?
~Use a single hand to hold a huge heavy sword and slice ALL THE WAY through 4 people without even slowing down... killing 3 of them in turn and doing severe damage to the fourth?
~Be brought back from the dead Even ONCE... much less 7592 times

~Ride a horse for HUNDREDS of miles witout so much as stopping to visit the WC

~Kill a dragon.. much less FIND ONE!!!!! >.<
~Learn to speak Gnome in 5 easy lessons....
Hmm Im betting the answer is nevah!!!!

You see?!? This is a game... we do stuff all the time that involves a bit of suspension of disbelief. Could I personally hide while wearing a glowing amulet? hmmm I dunno.. I dont have an amulet of communication... and I can not MINDSPEAK ( boy that would save me a lot on my cell bill!) maybe if we think of my cell phone as the equivalent of a amulet? I will say yeah I could stuff a cell in my cleavage and noone would see a thing...glowing

( so could my character) XD

as far as fluggling about in the dark... trust me... I have 3 kids who ALL firmly believe in the tooth fairy... they sleep in the dark... and hide tiny little teeth under pillows... and amazingly in the morning there is cold hard cash where the tooth used to be

I know all about finding stuff in total darkness

cause I am a well trained tooth fairy !!!!

I think penalizing rogues for a skill they already have to pay to learn and then practice a lot...and already have a chance of failing based on the clothing they wear and what not... is just going a bit too far. I think there are other things in the game that could use more attention. If you see a rogue doing something you think is not good RP or impossible...feel free to ask on the question channel or speak to the player politely through otells if you feel strongly about it.

Maybe Im ranting? But I really see no reason to plaster more penalties on this SKILL... Rogues do not fight while hiding so they get no advantage there. Pretty much all they can do hidden is sneak around... and we are assuming... that they are trained to see a bit farther and be more crafty and dextrous. They can conceal a light enough to use it to their benefit... but not get caught. noone can RUN while sneaking so it is assumed already that you are moving at a slower pace if you are hidden and sneaking

what is it you want the rogues to do??? RP bumping into things while no one is watching?? O.o lol and if a rogue is sitting quietly, hidden it is an easy assumption that they are hidden in a place where their light is not going to be seen... period. Am I missing something??? a rogue hiding behind a tree in ardeep with a torch.. okay... thats a bad RP choice... but I have never personally seen it. If you have, then perhaps you need to say something to that rogue or ask them politely in otells how it is that they did that.

And so I will shut up now... cause I am taking up too much space

Banna