Numbers or words? Or both?

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:19 pm

Currently, most details about your character are described with words that cover relatively broad categories of values.

The most well-known example is perhaps the stats. Your character's strength is described by words like Weak, Titanic, Herculean, ...; your character's charisma is described by words like Tactless, Blinding, Friendly, ...

Similarly, your favour level is described as Praised, Loved, Ignored, ... and your skill levels are described as Expert, Adept, ...

Recently, the description for your "exp towards next level" was changed into approximate descriptions as well, instead of a precise percentage number.

Both systems (numbers and words) have advantages and disadvantages obviously. We could also consider present both the numbers and a wordly description (e.g. Constitution: 18 - Hardened; Elven: 15/25 - Adept).

What system would you like to see on FK?

Scylere · Post by **Scylere** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:30 pm

I like having words, because it feels like you've accomplished something when you switch from Titantic to Herculean (for instance). It also makes it fun to talk about with friends.

But I would like to have a help file - similar to "skills" - that depicts how many points you need to maximize your skill/stat/etc, which, I presume, would be different depending on your ability stats.

Those are my thoughts.

Amalia · Post by **Amalia** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:19 pm

I love the verbal description, and I'd certainly leave that as the default. Whether or not to include the ability to see one's "numbers" depends on how in-the-dark you want players to be about their characters' "gears," but I'd lean towards having an option for everyone to see their numbers-- because, quite frankly, I've found that anyone who cares to know the game mechanics of FK seems to have found a way to discern them.

I think I can best represent my argument as such: much as it's encouraged for RP to be a priority, some players are still going to put mechanics ahead of RP and spend their points in the most mechanically advantageous way based on how the game is coded. Those players who instead put RP first (and I do think there are many) should at least be given the best chance possible to maximize the effects of their numbers while still representing their character accurately. I've found myself learning about where the pragmatic player would put stat points at a pretty slow rate, and I think it would be preferable to just give everyone the knowledge and watch what we do with it, rather than make it available only to those interested enough in twinking (or made desperate enough by other people twinking!) to dig in and find out about the mechanics that are meant to be hidden.

I firmly believe that people who want to make non-cookie-cutter (point-wise) characters should go into it with eyes open, knowing what mechanical fatal flaws the character will have, and if they choose to do it anyway, kudos to them-- it's still likely to encourage more unique "builds" if the people who like making "unusual" characters can dig into the bones of what they're doing, and accept the challenges involved starting out rather than having a nasty surprise later on.

Ceara · Post by **Ceara** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:38 pm

Could there be an option to have one or the other? Like an option in the config? Personally I prefer the numbers, more so when someone says you need to have a certain number in this stat for this. I have no idea what number i'm at or how many more I need to put into it.
I'm also used to the number system

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:02 am

I like both systems and would support allowing people to see both.

First, I like the words because it gives people and IC method by which they can RP their stats. No one can really go around and tell people "That guy has been working out and now has 16 STR." They would say something more along the lines of: "That guys has been working out and he looks titanic now." It also gives the player a bit more sense of accomplishment when you raise a "word" (as was mentioned above).

As for the numbers, it has its uses as well. The main reason being the need for a base level of a certain stat to perform something. For example, a wizard wishing to cast a spell needs and INT of 10 + the spell level. So if he was looking into what stat he should spend his next point on, knowing that his INT is "smart" doesn't tell him that he doesn't have the 15 INT he needs to cast his newly gained level 5 spells (Those are just roughly estimated numbers and words and may or may not reflect how they correspond to one another in the game). A second reason is that it allows players to do their own stat checks for RPs. For example, Player X challenges Player Y to an arm wrestle. Player X has 15 STR and Player Y has 14 STR. With the current system, both see that they are "strong" (Random words and numbers again). This means they will not really know who should win even though Player Y has the higher STR. Letting players see the scores allows them to send a quick little otell to one another to run that check and then RP it out accordingly.

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:07 am

Truth be told, while I'd largely second what's been said to this point, I'd either advocate for more transparency (numbers available, at minimum) or less than we have currently - meaning that the descriptors would be less mechanical than they are now. SCORE could work like journeyman APPRAISE in that it's not really dead-on accurate. It might show you as friendly one day, charismatic the next, friendly again on Tuesday. Your stats might actually vary from day to day even, depending on which side of bed you rolled out of! To my mind that is both realistic and adds some teeth to my understood intent of the current non-numerical system, namely, getting people away from maxxing out stats and trying to game the game. As Amalia aptly alluded, in a city of theives, the honest man is poor - so if "everybody's doing it" the temptation to grind and game the mechanics only deepens. I'm all for making it hard, or making it transparent and thus equally accessible to all...and as regards the latter, some won't do it no matter how relatively easy it is, because it just doesn't interest them.

Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:47 am

Personally, I'd like to see numbers for stats. When I make a char, I have an idea in my head of how it's going to work and, knowing how char gen works, i keep those numbers in my head.

For the skills and languages, i like the vagueness of it.

If it had to be a choice of either numbers or words, i'd take words though.

But having numerical stats just seems right to me.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:00 am

Coming from a tabletop background, I personally like the numerical approach. When you generate a character, you fill out your character sheet with numbers, you see your armour class, you see your abilities, you see your number of experience points to the next level, etc. I know of no campaigns where a DM would roll the scores, write descriptive words on your sheet and hand it back.

Yet, seeing the numbers on your sheet doesn't affect the ability to RP your character. I fail to see a logic that hiding the numbers somehow encourages RP. And, quite frankly, I cannot stand the new treatment of experience. A percentage was vague enough already, now to have four little divisions of your progress, to where after you get to a certain point, it almost seems you actually go nowhere. It's really disheartening if you complete a quest, type worth, and it seems your experience hasn't changed, even if it has.

I would support one of two treatments, either a configure option to switch between numeric and verbal, or preferably, I would like a side by side treatment, like:

Code: Select all

STR 18 (titanic)
DEX 13 (limber)
CON 10 (average)
INT 10 (average)
WIS 16 (wise)
CHA 18 (charismatic)

AC 12 (lightly armored)
HP 25/40

EXP 80%exp/lvl

This would allow one to verbally, ICly, describe their rating in an ability, armor class, etc, to others.

With the number, we'd know exactly what we needed for a particular guild, or a feat, or etc. I think it makes as much a feeling of accomplishment, goal, etc to see a number increase as it does a word.

I'd go as far as to keep the exp to level as a percentage, but not some one quarter, one half, three quarters, etc. Point, experience and levels are OOC in any case, there's no way to turn it into something IC. So I'd just as soon see what I need, in hard numbers.

Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:56 am

So yeh, Kregor just said what I wanted to say, but he's far more eloquent tha n I obviously am.

I still think we should have "adept/master" whatever for the weapons and skills though...

Balek · Post by **Balek** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:36 am

I prefer numbers, especially for experience. One of the major benefits to having a numerical experience display was for training skills. It was easy to see that at my current level it costs 7% experience to train bless once. I could then go out and kill things until I knew I had enough experience to train bless a specific number of times.

Besides that, I already have a pretty good idea what most of my character's stats and skill levels are in a numerical format. I do think it's useful to have the verbal cues there as well, though. It gives you a guideline if you know that a certain number is supposed to be 'genius' while another one is supposed to mean 'brilliant' or 'average.'

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:40 am

Wow, I'm not sure if you typed this up before or after I had already asked on question.

Anyhow.. I play table top too. Most of the time, I DM for my roommate and a few other people. I'm a numbers person. I love numbers. Now, admittedly sometimes there ARE certain numbers I do leave out, but I do try to be fair and tell them that they did something 'with ease' or 'just barely miss' their opponent.

That being said, stats are never something I would even consider masking. The idea that one needs certain levels of wisdom, charisma, or intellect for casting spells alone is more than enough reason. But, also it gives a value to the exact stats.

I asked earlier today for my specific stats, but no one was on to answer and I had to leave for work. Later, after speaking to another character who plays here, I was shocked to find out that this information was something that was not given out..

We are required to play our characters by their stats. If I see that I have 'omniscient' wisdom or int, you damn well better expect me to play myself as being omniscient: Anything you know, I already know - I'm just humoring myself by letting you tell me. This is where numbers have more meaning to me than words.

For instance, I have been looking through my D&D books and realized I picture Selveem more as a 'weaponsmaster' prestige class. OMG! I don't have the dex one might have as a weaponmaster. That will be something I intend to work towards, but if I don't know my numbers or what numbers make the next 'word' then I cannot set myself up like I would see my character.

To not include numbers, I find it a little unfair to the player themself on things that affect their character. What real purpose does it serve?

Oghma · Post by **Oghma** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:21 am

I'd prefer both, or the option to turn one on or the other. I like words because they act as guidelines but I have no problem with numbers for people more inclined to that.

Rawlys · Post by **Rawlys** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:30 am

Not that I have anything super intelligent to say, but I was asked for my opinion on words vs. numbers when it comes to stats and skills.

Personally, I like numbers. It's not uncommon for me to spend, litterally, hours in character generation when I'm trying to decide what attributes I need to adjust and maximize in order to gain the most out of my skills. I don't believe myself to be a twinker but I do like my characters being efficient.

I do like the idea of melding both, numbers and words together to give the player a better understanding of the physics of their own character. With that being said, I would like to have a better understanding of the physics of FK. But that is just a personal opinion and doesn't really matter much in this discussion.

So, yes to numbers. Yes to combining numbers and words. No to being vague with only words, even if only to increase RP (agree with Kregor).

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:34 am

I like the meld!

I am not a DnD hardcorist.. heck, his is about where I play any of it really. The numbers would help me be able to try to get other elements of the game explained to me by other people. (And there is generally one or two questions I asked that involve.. what is your stat at? as the answer..)

And the descriptions would help me be able to define how my character should be played. (IE: Your charimas is tactnless baby.... be rude.

)

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:49 am

I like the idea to have a config option for one or the other. I honestly doubt that RP will be affected and I seriously dont think this is going to make everyone who uses numbers twinkalicious as even now with a bit of persistence you can figure out your numbers anyway. The config is good as it lets us who like numbers and dont need to be fed the fluff can set their options and those uncomfortable with numbers set theirs. If config isnt an optional then let it show both like Kregor is proposing.

Maybel · Post by **Maybel** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:19 pm

I would like to see a system with Kregors idea... even before he posted... I saw that in my head...

That way, we know if an item we get... increases our stat by a point or not... even though it might not change the written value of it... It would still change the numerical value...

Rhianon · Post by **Rhianon** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:50 pm

I think having both would be beneficial, that way those of us who know absolutely nothing about D&D would be able to understand a bit more what all those numbers really mean.

Larethiel · Post by **Larethiel** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:08 pm

I think it would be nice to know what number stands behind Titanic or Powerful or Lightning and, for example your AC, I always wondered about the actual numbers

But perhaps I'm just too used to see the score sheet numbers from table top.

The way you see how high you are in the favor of the gods is perfectly fine for me, as I think it gives a better "feeling" ICly and perhaps even OOCly if I see "Oh, my patron loves me". Having it like Favor: 50/250 or so wouldn't be that nice, I think.

Could a help file be the possible solution for those interested in the numbers behind their stats, or an addition to the already existing help files concerning stats?

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:47 pm

Well, being a late poster, most of what I am going to say merely echoes everyone else.

Im a D&D kinda guy, its why I actually got onto the mud in the first place. I enjoy putting work into a character, playing their stats to fit your character concept, messing with skills, playing with feats. Ill take a feat thats useless in combat if it fits into his concept (I was terrible at doing this in NWN). Also, as others have mentioned, people who wanted to know (yes, thats me, too), can already figure out their stats, skills, etc, from just long hours of playing and experience on the game. So why leave others in the dark unless they want it?

Are we going so far as to give the exact stats that spells and feats give? Thats a whole nother debate, id say or merely something id rather not get into.

So my vote would be to have the option of numbers, words, or both. A config option would be nice.

So, like I said, echoes everyone else, but thats my opinion and prerogative.

Feedback is always welcome,
Thanks,

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:21 pm

BUMP!!!

*ahems*