On clerics and magic

[Vindur]

All "spells" that a priest knows has no "real" understanding of them, since he uses his god power to create the desired effect no matter if is a cure light spell or a storm of vengeance spell, we must remember also that a priest in theory has not to train spells since his spells are prayers granted by his god, if a priest has enough "power" to cast a a single second level spell he should be able to cast any other second level, since barely is any difference into asking for a bull strength spell or hold person spell, since in the eyes of his god these spells require the same power.

Each time that a priest cast a spell is borrowing some power from his god, a priest doesn't know how to create fire, he asks power to his god to create fire and he grants it to him.

Of course this doesn't translate very well in a system where spells have skills levels but we must no forget that a cleric is a divine spell caster which is a really BIG difference with a user of the weave.

So I would like to suggest if it were possible make easier for divine spellcasters (priests/druids/rangers/paladins) access to his prayers that they should know in theory, I suggest granting knowledge of all the prayers with the same skill level that grants as spell of his deities domain according with his deity favor.

Example: A priest of Lathander knows all the spells that are in the renewal domain and sun domain and he is ignored by his deity so he knows all the spells that had trained, all spells of the domains that grants Lathander and all level 1 cleric spells.

A priest of Cyric knows all the spells that are in the illusion and trickery domains and he is cherished by Cyric so he knows all the spells that had trained, all the spells of the domains of Cyric and all spells of level 8 and lower.

Of course if a deity sees that a follower of him, is using spells that he should not use, or using them in a way he shouldn't (aiding a faith enemy)
his favor will fall really low, a priest with favor less than ignored he shouldn't able to cast any spell no matter they are trained or granted by his deity.

There are 9 levels of deity favor and also 9 levels of cleric spells, each level would grant the prayers of his level and lower.[/u]

[Jaenoic]

I really like this idea and support it. But I think it should be taken a step farther, and when a priest gains the appropriate amount of levels and the next spell level is available to them, they should know all prayers that are learnable by them just like in D&D. We took the initiative to make arcane spell casting/memorizing more like P&P so I think we should keep with it and do the same for divine casting as well.

We can keep the current system of favor effecting prayers able to be cast, and that would limit priests from casting powerful spells too soon I guess.

[Kregor]

It was the case, not too long back, that spells were, in fact, based on deity favor, if your favor was too low, you couldn't cast a spell.

It was admin decision to cut out the favor requirement for many reasons, among them:

1) Most importantly, ones favor rating in the game is NOT in any way an accurate IC reflection of the deity's favor of a character. Favor in game code is earned by killing, burying, stealing, and hard code items that someone can camp/rinse/repeat to twink up and build. Some player could be an excellent RPer, lead faith drives and huge player run RPs, and act in every way in accordance to their faith that would earn them IC favor, and yet, if they don't spend their requisite time hack and slaying, or spam-casting heal spells in the case of goody priests, then they are supposedly, somehow, unfavored and unable to cast spells granted by their deity.

2) Supplication takes your favor back down to 0. If you are so loved by your deity, that he would grant you a relic, why would right after he suddenly say, "fine, you got your trinket, now go out and kill and bury/sacrifice before you can cast your spells again." Not to mention the OOC catch 22 of requiring a spellcaster to kill/bury/twink favor in order to cast spells, and not be able to cast said spells in order to do so.

3) Faith managers/Inner Circle were bound by this same restriction: The only other way to earn favor besides the coded ups for kill, etc, are by blessings from authority in the faith, or deity blessing. This leaves a small faith, or one with an inactive deity, in an even worse catch 22.

All these and other mitigating factors led to the favor requirement being stripped from the spells.

It has been proposed and discussed to tie spell casting to faith level, ie, spells higher than 5th level would be dependent on attaining a high enough level in the faith, beyond an initiate. That is still sort of open to discussion, still, I believe.

[Mariela]

I personally would die if it was changed back to faith level.

I think it keeps it fair to the clerics to keep it at a level system like the spells are. As it is, I have to spend forever looking for "prayers" which is part of the fun. If it was based upon my faith level,I would seriously be the most useless person in the world at times. Cause I could go for months and not be able to change my faith level...... heck I have a character who is still ignored by her deity. Yet, she is fairly decent at upholding her faith. I just haven't run into the keys to be able to boost her faith level. (Which means I have the excuse to be a screw up right! Right?)

My point is..... ARGH! I love it the way it is. If we can just iron out hte domain memorization problems, we should be good. It's a bit unwieldy of a system to use, but at least it's fair between the clerics and the spell chuckers.

But that's my two cents.

[Jaenoic]

To be honest, I'm the exact opposite as you, Mariella. I can't stand searching for prayers to train. It is by far my least favorite aspect of the magic system in the game. It's probably the reason why I have very few casters, none of which are priests, and the casters I do have I don't play much because I just can't stand spending my time walking through an area and typing train at every mob I find. >< This is why I'm very much inclined to agree with a system like this; it would make me want to play priests a lot more.

I can't say I really support the limiting of available prayers to faith level, but I guess I'm not really too against it either because I can see the justification and use in it. But I also am not really a big fan of limiting things. =P

[Amalia]

I think ideally a system like this would be wonderful-- but, like communism, in the real world it just won't work. As before noted, faith level isn't a very good indicator of how well someone is roleplaying their faith, so unless there were some way to make it more representative of that, a faith-level-based system would be tough-- not to mention wreaking all manner of havoc on priests of uncoded deities.

[Scylere]

What if the priest spell system was almost exactly like the PHB for D&D? You gain the spells according to your levels.

For example:
Level 01-10: level one spells
Level 11-15: level two spells
Level 16-20: level three spells
Level 21-25: level four spells
Level 26-30: level five spells
Level 31-35: level six spells
Level 36-40: level seven spells
Level 41-45: level eight spells
Level 46-50: level nine spells

To make it fair, the priest could gain the spells at amateur skill level and have to use them to get better.

That's one option.

[Hviti]

(strictly imo) priests don't actually understand how the prayer is working - it just does, but I guess they could make more fluid motions or the like...

[Scylere]

Gods like for their follows to do things for themselves - so a similar saying goes.

I think it's more that a god grants their priest power - the strength of this power dependent on level ("I think he's strong enough to handle this now.") - and it's up to the priest to develop it, explore its limits, etc. A priest who spends time using a god's power through spells learns more how to use those spells, control them, mould them, etc.

[Maybel]

At first I liked this idea. But did not want to post it, see what others had to say and I am glad I did... Because I have changed my mind.

It would grossly empower all of those classes (priest, druid, ranger, paladins) because they just sit around and not do anything but gain levels to learn an arsenal of new prayers. Once they reach level 6 prayers they BAM! automatically learn 20+ new prayers?! Granted... a goodly priest would never use bane.... buy why would he know the prayer? Code wise... nothing would stop you from praying it... and why would your God even allow you to use it?

What I have always though (from the time of the domain spells) is that you are granted the knowledge of your domain spells from your Deity because it's their portfolio and what not. You go out and learn new prayers and ask your lord that THIS priestess taught me this prayer that gives me strength. Can I pray the same to you in your name?

*wonders if he is making any sense, then shrugs and goes back to bed*

[Vindur]

It would grossly empower all of those classes (priest, druid, ranger, paladins) because they just sit around and not do anything but gain levels to learn an arsenal of new prayers. Once they reach level 6 prayers they BAM! automatically learn 20+ new prayers?! Granted... a goodly priest would never use bane.... buy why would he know the prayer? Code wise... nothing would stop you from praying it... and why would your God even allow you to use it?

That is why there are spell descriptors with each spell. Let's have a look at Unholy Blight for example.

Evocation [Evil]
Range: Close
Target: Offensive
Syntax: cast 'unholy blight'
Note: This spell can only be cast by an evil spellcaster.

Those spells with a specific descriptor (Lawful, Chaotic, Good, Evil) can't be cast by people of opposite alignment, and if they could it would be like followers of good and pure deities having followers of evil deities as their very best friends, codewise is possible, but it rarely should happen, just because you can you mustn't do it.

You go out and learn new prayers and ask your lord that THIS priestess taught me this prayer that gives me strength. Can I pray the same to you in your name?

Each faith has their own rites, I doubt very much that the way in which a priest of Helm will cast a blessing would the same than a priest of Sune or Lathander. If a priest of Lathander used the same rite than a follower of Moradin to access to a spell, I don't think that Lathander would be specially pleased.

[Maybel]

Yes... but spells like bane...

Code: Select all

Bane
====
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Area: Group
Target: noncombat
syntax: cast bane <target>

Bane fills your enemies with fear and doubt. Each affected creature takes a
penalty on attack rolls and a penalty on saving throws. The opposite of
Bless.

they have no side note. a lot of the prayers do not have that [evil] or the side note... I do not know if they are coded to be [evil] ONLY if they have that tag on the help file or not.


And as far as learning a prayer... How do you suggest learning a prayer from a priest of Chauntea and praying it to your Deity? (not really an argument... just want to know)

[Vindur]

Bane
====
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Area: Group

Bane is a spell that frightens people, not an evil spell. I'm sure that a priest of Torm will inspire fear in their evil enemies while acting good and isn't evil for doing so.

After looking the cleric spell list I haven't found any evil spells that aren't classified as such, there are spells of the school of necromancy that aren't classified as evil, but every priest should discover IC the views of his church on using spells of the school of necromancy that don't involve raising people from the dead.

And as far as learning a prayer... How do you suggest learning a prayer from a priest of Chauntea and praying it to your Deity? (not really an argument... just want to know)

Sincerally I think that it shouldn't be possible in first place, the idea of a priest learning prayers in itself it is a bit strange since a priest asks his god for X, and his god grants or doesn't grants it, FK makes the concept of prayers a more ritual aspect than a personal aspect between his deity and himself, that is why I'm suggesting changing it.

[Kregor]

It would grossly empower all of those classes (priest, druid, ranger, paladins) because they just sit around and not do anything but gain levels to learn an arsenal of new prayers. Once they reach level 6 prayers they BAM! automatically learn 20+ new prayers?! Granted... a goodly priest would never use bane.... buy why would he know the prayer? Code wise... nothing would stop you from praying it... and why would your God even allow you to use it?

To paraphrase a statement Dalvyn made in another thread at one point. D&D has never been about balancing this class vs. that class. Balancing the classes vs. the world and campaign setting around them, yes, but the thought of "X class is more powerful than Y class, because they automaticaly get their spells" is a moot one, because it's not about player vs. player or class vs. class, the game is about a diverse spectrum of classes that each have a set of strengths and weaknesses that have to function *together* in order to overcame a challenge or set of obstacles.

Secondly, of course a goodly priest would cast Bane. They would have no problem casting it upon their enemies, and there is nothing in the game system that would prevent it. Unless a spell in the help files has an alignment descriptor - indicated by [evil], [good], etc., it is castable by any priest regardless of alignment. Only a select few spells are so descripted, as they are fueled by the raw energy that drives that alignment.

Granted, there are limitations or variants on most spell casting classes in FK as compared to D&D that are simply remnant of the old code bases that it was built off of, some that may be changed as we further D20-ize the game, and some not: Bards should actually be able to simply *choose* which spells they learn at each level, rather than hunt and learn, but they can only learn a specific number of each level spell, and then they can learn no more of them, so choice is important, rather than hording. A wizard could actually have a chance NOT be able to leaarn a spell when they find it, and have to wait to either gain another level or another rank in spellcraft in order to try again, but could untimately learn any and ALL spells on their spell lists. And divine casters would get their spells automatically, because it they are deity granted, furthermore, as such, rangers, priests and paladins, which can conceivably cast spells faithless in FK, would not be able to cast their divine spells at all, as they have no deity to grant them.

[Scylere]

Some notes from the 3.5 PHB, if anyone's interested:

Domain spells are like a divine aura. The cleric is so much like their god, that what the god specializes in (domain) flows freely from the cleric. This is also a hint of how to roleplay a priest.

A cleric is considered a spellcaster. A cleric casts spells in the same way a wizard does. It is the source that is different. While a wizard studies his daily allotment of spells and harnesses arcane power, a priest prays/meditates for his daily allotment of spells and harnesses divine power. BOTH prepare their spells: either through study or prayer, and when it comes down to actually casting the spell, both do it the same. Both will need components (and/or focuses in the case of a priest), verbal, somantic, and material.

What is different is that the priest understands how to complete the spell by divine knowledge, therefore the PHB grants the cleric all the spells of a certain spell level when that level is achieved. Like others have mentioned, the cleric is only limited by spells that are connected to certain domains and/or alignments and/or wisdom.



After looking at this, I wonder if priests should be training spells or increasing in skill with spells. I think a system like I suggested above with priest gaining spells per level would reflect the divine spellcaster better.

Are spells tied to alignment and/or favor level?
Do followers lose favor or have hidden alignment lowered, if "bad" spells are cast?

[Leohand]

Should poison be evil or chaotic?


Poison
======
Necromancy
Range: Touch
Target: Offensive
Syntax: cast poison <target>

Calling upon the venomous powers of natural predators, you infect the subject
with a horrible poison by making a successful melee touch attack. The poison
deals temporary Constitution damage immediately as well as affect the victim's
mental state and regeneration rate.

(A) 3rd Level Druid Spells (B) 4th Level Cleric Spells

[Nedylene]

When speaking of evil spell or good spell.. when it comes to divinity good and evil comes in the form of how the caster uses it. Yes.. something like banishment or poison can do untold damage... But even the most divine of gods will have a force for fighting against their enemies. Has anyone ever read Mistress of the Night here? It is a lovely lovely book featuring the Shar and Selune churches and faiths. In it Selune features a special order called the 'New Moon Pact' and the "New Moon Heresy". The New Moon Pact was a special order of Selune which was exclusively Werewolves and were also known as Selune's Assassins. They moved at the darkest of night when Shar held power and fought against Selune's greatest enemies in methods which are not always 'good' in nature. The New Moon Heresy was an inquisition which destroyed the pact many years ago and marked all known members as heretics and many were scentenced to death or banishment. They thought that what they were doing was evil and was not what Selune has in mind. In the book the pact is reborn through the priestess Feena who speaks the vows and draws upon the power of old to bring back the force to destroy a sharite force that is threatening to overtake the temple. Feena did die... but she denied the shard to bring her to Selune. At her denial Selune granted her life with the directions to bring back the pact. So their 'act' can be defined as evil. But is it evil?

Another great example about good vs bad here is there is a priestess of Selune named Velsinore who is actually the reason the Sharrites knew when to strike and how. She wanted the current high moonmistress to leave so she could invite the Sharites into the temple and combine the faiths. There is a fight with her and Feena where she uses the blessings of Selune against Feena.. and a very nice theological discussion between them of Velsinore trying to use her ability to still use her prayers as confirmation that Selune approves of her plan. Some of the spells she used are devestating... One forced cuts to appear all over Feena's body and almost killed her much like flensing does. Inheritantly in this situation it was evil because it was used against one of her own faith. But is the spell evil? How can you define that?

Sorry for rambling just giving examples from a book.. good examples on why I really feel that things cannot be defined as good or evil. It all depends on how they are used.

[Tortus]

Calling upon the venomous powers of natural predators, you infect the subject with a horrible poison by making a successful melee touch attack.

Seems like a perfectly neutral spell to me. I would call a natural predator neither chaotic nor evil.


Anyway, how's about getting back on topic? I know I'd enjoy it if this discussion could bring a change to the way clerics gain spells.

Some of you pointed out that you enjoy travelling around and training spells; that's why there are wizards.

[Nedylene]

Back on subject I like it how it is honestly. I like that you have to make an effort to find the spells... It makes you feel accomplished when you do find that trainer and on a more technical term....

Clerics are my favorite class. The majority of my characters are clerics. Currently right now one large quest reward is the ability to learn a new spell. If you give clerics the ability to learn spells automatically without finding a trainer or giving any effort other then level/favour ... You are also deminishing part of the quest system for that class.

If it's not broke, don't fix it. It just screams twink at me, but then again.. For those who want to twink there really is no way to prevent it. You could put in as many safeguards as you wished and they would still find a way. Just my two cents ...

[Tortus]

I just thought of something, and lemme tell you what.


How about letting priests choose a number of prayers to gain at an apprentice skill level themselves? The precise amount could be determined by their wisdom score.

I think that's about how it works in Dungeons and Dragons too. Yay-oh!