The Great Divide

[Lukon]

With the slowdown to level training, and the difficulty to master skills without a truly grand time investment, I'm starting to wonder about something. This is an RP MUD, and roleplay is the key, but I'm starting to worry that with the recent changes of mechanics, while all good things, fail to take into account the sizable base of characters that have already benefited from either an easier system or just a massive amount of time. It reaches a point where conflict, one of the main drivers of RP, becomes a matter of "How do I mollify the more powerful veteran characters, because defeating them is deeply, deeply improbable?"

I guess, my concern is this. When it's getting harder and harder to advance as a skilled character, how do we bridge that divide between the multi-GMed elite and the newer players? It's not all negative, but in cases of conflict...it becomes pointless to bother challenging them, and it's less stressful to just avoid the older players if conflict or PKill is a possibility.

[Rawlys]

Very understandable what you're saying Lukon, even though this is a RP enforced/encouraged MUD, we do like to see character progression and advancement both socially and personally.

It's difficult at times to not use your OOC experience about another PC, knowing that you're going to get your butt handed to you if a fight was to break out.

Was it easier for earlier players to level and skill up vs. newer players? From what I undestand, yup. Did they have all the alternatives and options that are currently available to us now? From what I understand, nope.

I don't think there needs to be any sort of bridge created between the older elite and newer characters. For one, they've been here longer and frankly, think they deserve having the upper hand when it comes to a PC vs. PC battle. Secondly, If I was one of those characters, I would be fairly upset if I had something taken away from that I had spent a lot of time forming. And last but not least, the older characters didn't have all the options available to them like we do now (a negative for the older).

Just my point of view.

[Dugald]

i think the point allocation - level/skill based system idea that's been floating around would do wonders in bridging those "era gaps"

and by bridging, i mean, creating a new era

Right now, team ups are about the only way to come close.

My advice, til a new era (and even then) - is to avoid pkill situations as often as you can...not just taking that "retreat" option, but putting your PC's in situations where it hopefully doesn't get that far. But if you enjoy that PvP aspect...good luck

I'd wager pvp is the leading complaint (not reason) for relatively long time players quitting...I think it'd go a long way to have an on/off switch that enables or disables the ability to murder or be targeted to murder...and then if someone abuses that it can get locked one way or the other.

[Teyn]

EDIT: Even as I was typing, people have commented as well :p (/Edit)

Triggered by Dalvyn's mention of his view of skill points, I have spent around three hours reading previous threads on the matter of skills and was going to post about it myself :p

Discussion as to an alternative system seems to happen often, until the discussion dies down as people start going in circles, etc.


he first thing I would say though, is that the term 'skill' throughout this post, refers to skills, trades, weapons, spells, languages and any other incarnation I might have missed.

The best summary I can give is actually Lathander's account of Dalvyn's system:
"
1. Rp will be rewarded with experience points which will lead to leveling which will lead to gaining more skill points. The XP will be more consistently gained than before and those who choose to participate in observable rp will finally get somethng they've never had before. This is in keeping with our "rp enforced" label.
2. Hacking and slashing will be rewarded with experience points which will lead to leveling which will lead to gaining more skill points. The ONLY change is that those experience points will be gained more slowly in this category than before.
3. Mindlessly repetitive practicing of a skill will still contribute toward the betterment of that skill. The ONLY change is that the improvement will be slower.
4. Hacking/slashing, or mindlessly practicing a reptitive skill can be combined with Rp to increase the amount of xp and skill points gained.
5. Just as those who choose to slay giants during their online time and drink ale during their offline time, there are others who choose to be in alehouses online and say that they do their training offline. This means that everyone trains. You are all adventurers after all and training is a necessity. Some enjoy doing it themselves, others enjoy plotting with their allies and leaving the training off game. Some, like me, enjoy both.
"


I will, however, just to be unneccesarily wordy, put my own version up, not exactly to Dalvyn's specs, but my own observations of advancements:

1 - At level up, you are given x amount of skill points which you can divide between your available skills as you feel is appropriate for your character, and with possible varying costs, depending class, existing level of skill, etc.

2 - As well as (not excluding) mob killing, experience can also be gained as a gift from immortals, meaning characters can advance themselves through RP.

3 - Additional skill points can be an additional bonus for RP (or possibly through repitition of a skill/trade)


That would be the basic system.
The precursors to the two biggest objections are:

1 - This would NOT make mob killing redundant, it would be an additional means to the same ends.

2 - People sitting around chatting in the Market Square aren't training - No, but the time when the characters are offline is considered when they would be training.




I have probably missed things out or made mistakes and so I apologise in advance. Discussion on this is most welcome, and I would plead the staff; both Imms and coders to join in, with what is actually possible, what they would be happy to do, and their own oppinions on the matter.


Apologies for the long, fragmented and messiness. And if this is deemed to be 'off topic', I'm very sorry, and perhaps it could be moved to a different thread? Thanks,
Richard

[Dalvyn]

Although it's sweet music to my ears to hear/see people agreeing with this system, I am afraid that reviving this topic is a bit like beating a dead horse. I do not think that the discussion died down because people started going in circles, but rather because there is only so much you can discuss on it before you need to start going concrete and turning words into actions.

That being said, let's not derail from the original topic of this post, which was the relative power of older charcters vs newer characters. Yes, remaking all characters through a skill point system (e.g., by wiping older characters' skills and giving them an amount of skill points to distribute, that would depend on how old they are, how many hours they spent online, and the quality of their roleplay/contribution for example) might work, but I would suggest that you do not really count on it.

There might be other solutions to alleviate this problem though, perhaps.

[Solaghar]

My experience when it comes to training of skills is this. When I first started, skill training was relatively easy, though I rarely did it because I found (and still find) it dull. People also told me that training used to be much easier. At some point during my lifetime here, training was made more difficult bit by bit, as well as a significant reduction in the number of stat points people could get. I know older characters tend to have natural stats that are all 16+, with numerous 18s or higher. Then skill training was hardened once more to the point where I would go literally weeks without seeing a skill increase that came from use. That was the worst point. Then recently, the skill progression was improved to what seems to me the easiest it's been in my memory.

So while older characters do tend to have an advantage in many cases; skills, stat points, equipment, I tend to think that nowadays we have it relatively easy when it comes to actually training our skills. It's harder to gain levels, but the skill advances themselves seem to come MUCH easier. As someone who finds training skills on monsters the most boring aspect of this game, I'd love to see a skill points system come into play. I love to explore new areas and figure out everything there, map it out and delve every secret. But the idea of going to places like the Shadowlands or Hartsvale just to kill mobs for hours on end, blech.

[Maybel]

To say that I would like to see the point system imputed... would be an understatement...

There was a post by Dalvyn on april 1 of last year that made me soooooo happy and excited and overjoyed... until I read the post he made april 2...

I would love to see this system imputed and would do anything possible to help see it come to life... but it seams only good hopes at this point in time...

Over the years of playing... I remember leveling to be much easier, getting platinum (from mobs) to be much higher, leveling up skills and your stats to be much higher... but one thing is better... The RP... the RP aspect of it is SOOOOOOOO much better then it was... the IMM involvement in, the plot moving quests... PLAY INVOLVEMENT! With plays, adventures, books being written... it has over the years turned into an RP mud... as before for me... it was only hack and slash. Over the years I have been involved I have only been in a PK situation 3-4 times...

This MUD i has only gone UP in the level of RP and it shows... we are in the top 50!!! How exciting is that! AND our player base has increased so much more over the years

[Lathander]

Dalvyn's post above regarding the skill point system is accurate. My only addition here would be that I would not be in favor of any loss of skills/stat for longer-termed PCs.

[Japcil]

Dalvyn's post above regarding the skill point system is accurate. My only addition here would be that I would not be in favor of any loss of skills/stat for longer-termed PCs.

Where do we draw the line of "longer-termed" however? Do we make it voluntary for those "longer-termed" or just not at all?

[Lathander]

I would prefer that no one lose what they have already gained. The point system above could still apply to all from whenever it might be implemented, forward.

[Selveem]

I really see both sides of this. Is it possible for a new player to be more powerful than an older player? Well, being as this is an RP enforced MUD, I say absolutely. I have invested a ridiculous amount of time on Selveem over the course of my time here. Most of this time has been fruitless, repetitive killing to /attempt/ to make the skills list reflect Selveem's mastery of arms and technique. Also, I will readily admit Selveem can be bested easily due to current code. I have seen it multiple times when dueling other melee opponents. Does it bother me? Sure, a little. What the newer generation fails to grasp is that a level 50 fighter has a rather hard time training skills like dual wield, extra attacks, etc. A lowbie fighting a higher level MOB that won't decapitate him will gain said skills faster. Not to mention that heavy armor is more detrimental to a `skilled' fighter than "lighter" armor. Regardless of this, I refuse to remove my heavy armors to increase my power code-wise. Personally, I find pvp on FK boring and player character deaths more detrimental to RP than anything (code annoyances such as now having to worry OOC about the player's corpse being looted unjustly or another player trying to be helpful and inadvertantly doing something that causes the corpse to disappear - things like that). Can I create a new character that can demolish yours? I would put money on it. Would I? Why bother. I don't see the obsession with old school vs new generation.