Reacting to Orcish RP

[Kregor]

Moderation ... again

This thread derailed from the original topic, which was about orcish background.

I would suggest that discussions about orc - non-orc roleplay be moved to a new thread devoted to that topic. Hopefully, a thread with only informative and constructive posts and no accusations, finger-pointing, or worse.

End of Moderation

Would you split off this discussion for us Dalvyn, if you have the ability, and move everything from Raona's first post to this one over to a second, appropriately named thread? Then we can keep the orc RP thread clean of the clutter and bad digressions.

Or if you are unable, someone on the web team who can?

[Tempus]

Exactly my thoughts, Kregor - I have split this topic to allow the original to remain focussed on its original purpose.

[Raona]

Thanks, Tempus!

How would the orcish community feel about an over-zealous Oghman type coming in to do a story on their Kultur, National-Geographic style? Only one way to really find out, I suppose...

I wonder if the orcs could be given sole [ready] access to some unusual spell component or another, some rare herb that grows only in their village, or in the crags in which they live, so that they have something to barter with the outside world? Perhaps they wouldn't be the only source of this component, but they would be the easiest source, provided one learned how to interact with them.

[Lerytha]

I thought something else would be interesting to mention here. It applies to all RP, not just orcish RP. But anyway.

Perhaps if we started reacting to PK situations in a less "linear" way, it might help with interactions? For example, if an high-level elf corners a lowbie orc in Shilmista, maybe the orc can take advantage of the trees and the brush? Or if an orc encounters a paladin, maybe they can RP out the chase of the paladin? The stalking of the paladin? That means treating wilderness rooms as large as they actually are (30 miles?).

This is not targetted at anyone. Its just that when we get into PK situations, we all get worried (myself included) about equipment, level drain, permadeath, how good the other PCs equipment is, etc, and less about our character and their character. That is a general PK note. How does that equate to orcs and orc RP? Well, it is the impression that an orc RP has to end in a PK. A mistaken one, definitely, but an impression nonetheless.

So, whilst it might be a separate issue, I think orc RP can only be aided, with a generic change in how we perceive PK. I know most people nowadays approach PK from a more RPed perspective - and they are the best PK situations.

---

Apart from that general point about a change in PK approach, there are several ways I could see that would increase orc RP.

-- Remove the boundary between the Underdark and the Surface. Orcs and drow have more cause to ally, than other races. Imagine the plots concocted between the two darkest races in existence. I understand the motivations behind this barrier have changed somewhat. Whereas once it was to keep Drizz'ts at bay, now it is to keep PK at bay, because really, what can drow do but PK? (A perceived truth) But surely drow can RP with orcs? - that's one of my suggestions, so far.

-- Continue hosting orc events - I haven't been online much recently, but I've seen the Events board talking about orc events, so that's already well on its way to being done!

-- "An Orc Day" - I had an idea a while back (I think I posted it), about the imms every so often running a specific race day, with a large-scale RP that would include everyone from that race in a plot and RP that lasted a day. So, maybe the orcs raid Shadowdale in a great clanraid? With imm mobiles designed to give orcs the numerical advantage they deserve, any good PCs will have their work cut out to help Shadowdale. And there doesn't have to be any PK - why? Because with imm supervision, good PCs can attack evil mobs, and orc PCs can attack good mobs. The idea of a "Day" RP extends to drow, elves, Zhents, Harpers, any organisation or faith. Maybe the orcs and drow unite to strike a blow into the sewers of Waterdeep...? There are possibilities for roleplay that let people see orcs as fun and exciting, not just walking PK machines.

And those are my three (relatively) simple steps that I think might improve orc RP. I say relatively, because the barrier between drow and surface has been discussed many times and I understand there are reasons it is closed (and good reasons) - plus, it would take a lot of work to write a quest to allow drow through again. The events is the easiest, and already being done. So yay for that. As for the third, that requires a lot of imm effort, but maybe with help and suggestions for roleplays, the imms would be able to do that much easier?

To conclude, I think working together is better. No "us" and "them" approach. We're all players, trying to have fun. We may not all play orcs, but we have more to unite us than divide us.

Over and out.

~Ol

[Ooma]

Orcs and drow have more cause to ally, than other races. Imagine the plots concocted between the two darkest races in existence. I understand the motivations behind this barrier have changed somewhat. Whereas once it was to keep Drizz'ts at bay, now it is to keep PK at bay, because really, what can drow do but PK? (A perceived truth) But surely drow can RP with orcs? - that's one of my suggestions, so far.

There is a common misconception that the drow hate elves and the orcs hate elves so they would logicaly band together. ( Indeed they once did)
However, Orcs and Drow would for all intents and purposes... be mortal enemies...
Lloth is one of Gruumsh's BIGGEST faith enemies as Arausnee allied with Gruumsh promising to help Gruumsh defeat the Seldarine... the plan failed and Gruumsh again was foiled, Araushnee was then transformed into what we know as Lloth... and a bitter resentment/hatred remains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruumsh


Ooma

[Dugald]

I agree with Ooma

As a general rule, inherently evil races don't get along unless they're forced too...from what I've read, this typically involves an immensely powerful evil entity that unites them (by conquest or threat of conquest).

The trick to getting evil races to get along, is providing the incentive to force one of the races into a more submissive role (lots of coin, promise of conquest, brow beating). This doesn't mean the submissive race automatically enjoys the role, only that the incentive is enough to at least keep them in line - the different methods obviously cause different problems depending on the culture of the evil race.

Just my two cents.

[Neriadin]

One other point to consider. The Drow attitude of superiority would probably have them using the orcs as "cannon fodder" or worse, slaves.

[Dugald]

That's kind of the kicker, orcs have all the advantage above ground. The drow would be at a /crippling/ disadvantage if they tried to put the orcs into submission by force.

But i agree with you, drow mentality would mean they'd need to be top dog...I don't think the orcs would have too big of a problem in a savage mercenary role.

[Dapher]

Here is my thought. If you look at the Underdark, oOrcs are slaves to Drow. The Drow do feel a dominace to all other races, and they would come to the surface thinking they were dominant.

Though in the Forgotten Realms books Thousand Orcs, The Lone Drow, and The Two Swords, the orcs did band with the giants, but that was because Gruumsh played a hand in that one. He was the one that brought the Orcs together as one army, and he was the reason that the Orcs were dominant in the role with the giants.

And if you look at it, the few Drow that were there, did think they were dominant, and did think that they could manipulate the Orcs, and Giants as fodder for there plan.

Just another referance

[Ooma]

Orcs and drow working together... This would not be IC for the orc . They are ICly faith enemies and there would be HUGE IC consequences for any orc found working with those who follow the faith of Lloth. To be honest though, orcs are fanatics when it comes to their devotion to Gruumsh and it would be *beat* into their heads from a young age that Lloth is an enemy of Gruumsh.

Could an orc chose this as an RP? I suppose they could... but... then Gruumsh will most likely just eat them

*cackle*

Ooma

[Dugald]

In -722 orcs and drow played off each other in attacking the elves of Yrlaphon (opportunity alliance)

During the ridiculously long cormanthor battles the drow of the Northwest forest and the main occupying orcish forces held off elves for freakin ever (alliance of need)

---------

Yes, technically any drow god is a faith enemy of Gruumsh...but that's because Gruumsh specifically hates all non-orcs (I know he hates lloth more). That doesn't stop the orcs taking a submissive role to giants or ogres when those two races decide to lead a hellish army. Because giants and ogres are much bigger, and much more scary than orcs (or any humanoid)...and generally more like orcs in culture, not something orcs would have a hard time swallowing. But still - non orc, faith enemy.

While the orcs hold Gruumsh edicts closer to their hearts than most other races cling to their own gods...Gruumsh doesn't control their actions, that's against Ao's edicts. And an evil race who is most swayed by acts of strength or fear of certain death, they can pretty quickly wake up to their religious authority figure having had an "accident" in the night if that shaman's effective bible thumping seems to be sending them to certain death.

And even looking past the "evil savage" culture, and more to the motivations of Gruumsh. Gruumsh is an opportunist, the first deity to kill another deity (one of Mulhorand). If an opportunity presented to remove another deity in his way, he'd do it, and if it took getting help from other gods he hated (darn near all of them)...I'm sure he'd at least consider it. When you're willing to go far enough to kill another god, nothing is out of the question.

Even taking into account the Araushnee/Lloth alliance with Gruumsh, anything that can be broken can be put back together....even if it is just with masking tape for a couple hours.

[Xryon]

I was just reading through some old posts, and I became curious.. Is this still how people regard RPing with orcs? Fear that it could become a PK situation?
I avoid PK, entirely. A little fighting? Definitely for it.. But I don't kill players. And I certainly won't keep anyone from backing out of a fight (so long as they don't mind be taunted, and called names )
But, really, how do people see orc RP these days?

[Selveem]

I was just reading through some old posts, and I became curious.. Is this still how people regard RPing with orcs? Fear that it could become a PK situation?
I avoid PK, entirely. A little fighting? Definitely for it.. But I don't kill players. And I certainly won't keep anyone from backing out of a fight (so long as they don't mind be taunted, and called names )
But, really, how do people see orc RP these days?

I have to admit, to be blunt, I don't see any RP situation with fear it could involve a PK situation.

People make threats, people taunt, people puff up their chests, and people hide behind the laws of the City.

I try to avoid the cities as much as possible (especially any Market-Squares) anymore because I as a player don't agree with it at all. If a PC makes a threat, it should be treated seriously. This is the medieval ages. People were murdered for less. Duels were unavoidable even in cities for the shame brought to the one refusing the challenge. It was no small thing.

I remember the days when even walking along the trade streets were not safe. I remember the days of Gwark playing Toll Troll and demanding payment before anyone got to leave (though newbies were obviously spared). I remember when you couldn't even hide behind the laws of Waterdeep if you made a threat. You could be dragged right out of the Square and beaten or possibly even killed!

I'm all for player versus player choices. I, too, do not like actually _killing_ a PC. I won't even do it unless they force the hand of my character (and even then, depending on the character, they'll refuse). Part of that stems from back in the day when if the MUD crashed your corpse was gone immediately and you just get to suffer because those quest items are no longer available to you unless you paid a very high premium for them. The other part is I severely hate the current death system where you wait hours, days, sometimes years to be resurrected or take a stat hit penalty.

As a whole, only four or so of my characters even fear Orcs because the few Orcs they've met have been.. well.. Lacking dominant ego that Orcs SHOULD have. Also, since the requirement of Kismet loss for Half Orcs, I have seen far less if any Orcs anymore. I am hoping this will change when the new fighter feats come in.

*Edited to include note: When I say "PK," I mean what it actually stands for: the killing of a player character. When I meet with an Orc, on friendly terms (as Selveem) or not (any of my other characters), I _expect_ PC versus PC violence. Even a duel is considered PCvPC violence to me.

I hate to admit it, but having a character that is heavily Orc influenced has been very rewarding to me. I've learned a LOT about the Orc culture just by playing with many of them.

Surprisingly, their view on Humans is a lot like Elves: You're either our race or you're another. "Tel'-whatever" vs "N'Tel-whatever." The looking-down-on other races is the same, IMO. Whether an Elf does it consciously or not. An Orc is just more blunt about it.

[Mele]

I guess when one player is openly telling other players he called a second orc to get him into the game for a could-be pk situation people might be afraid of PK situations with orcs.

[Xryon]

I have two players numbers: Neither is an orc. Though I do know what you're talking about; and I also said I did /not/ contact them for purposes of PK. Please try to get your facts straight before posting. Thank you

I actually have the whole conversation logged, and, pending the other player's permission, will be happy to send it to you if you'd like some clarification.

[Selveem]

If that is in fact what is occurring, it is very unethical and childish. I don't think that is fair for any party concerned. I hope, if that did happen, a complaint was sent in about the event.

That being said, though, I don't think OOC fingerpointing is really a good way to stimulate good conversation here.

Honestly speaking, I haven't read the other thread, but I'm a bit lost as to the goal of this particular thread. Is this thread's intention the same as the old Evils thread ("The place for Evils in FK")? To find out a way to make the RP between Orcs and non-Orcs more enjoyable?

If so, I miss the excitement I mentioned in my previous post about the possible danger involved when approaching Orcs. The old "Toll Trolls" that used to act as supplimentary to the bandits that currently occur along the trade roads. Something more 'interactive.'

I'll be honest when I say that the rules on FK don't exactly favor the classic Evil for the most part. Especially many Evil races. But, the players of those Evils (especially Drows and Orcs) show extraordinary ability to RP said characters while maintaining those boundaries as best as possible. I appreciate the amount of time dedicated to caution that they face and I personally feel the MUD is better for having them available to enhance the flavor of FK.

[Xryon]

The original reason for this posting was that i've noticed a lot of people just.. walking by my orc, no RP, even when it should be appropriate. I had wondered why, and coincidentally met someone who played one of the characters that kept walking by me IM'd me. They informed me that they had been afraid to RP with me, because they didn't know what kind of player I was, and were afraid I would just start attacking for no reason. I was curious as to whether these were general feelings, or if people had different reasons for avoiding RP

[Harroghty]

Xryon: I think that orcish braggadocio and truculence makes for good role-play. I think a lot of the "PK situations" are dubious in their origins (the ultra-evil character parading in Waterdeep to provoke one), but the "toll trolls" that Selveem's mentioned and roving orcs (or bands of them!) is a more believable scenario and could make for some good role-play.

Selveem: I believe PK is a situation where often your common-sense as a player enters the equation: even if your character would, by all rights, wade in with sword swinging you have to remember there are a myriad of real-world concerns (trust of the other player, your laundry about to finish, or the lunch date you have with your significant other) that intervene and supercede the game.

Xryon cont'd: All that being said I have enjoyed the role-play (even violent, PK role-play) that I have had on Harroghty with orcs. I think that if PvP is going to happen it should be something that happens as the development of believable role-play and that is something that's easy to come by with orcish PCs. Like Selveem said, it doesn't have to the death. That's an old role-play standby! Attacked by orcs. Good stuff, I think.

[Selveem]

I don't think that's an Orc problem, honestly.. Lots of people do that to many different characters that I've seen.

[Selveem]

Selveem: I believe PK is a situation where often your common-sense as a player enters the equation: even if your character would, by all rights, wade in with sword swinging you have to remember there are a myriad of real-world concerns (trust of the other player, your laundry about to finish, or the lunch date you have with your significant other) that intervene and supercede the game.

Courtesy should always reign in a game that we're all playing together. I certainly agree with this, but I was just defining what I was calling 'PK.' PK to me is not the act of fighting another player, but the actual act of killing said characters.