Immortal Conduct

[Selveem]

I am a player who has played this MUD for longer than I can remember. Some times, off and on, others almost full time. One thing, though, remains a constant question that has never been answered and seems to vary from Imm player to other Imm player: Immortal Conduct.

Unfortunately, as a player we have no visible help files as to the proper conduct of one who has been entrusted with the administration of the game. Surely there are already set guidelines that all those responsible for the maintenance of the game, but unfortunately those are either unlinked to 'help God/help Immortal/etc.'

Now, surely there are certain etiquettes that are already in place, but oftentimes players can feel the brunt of what they believe is unfair conduct of an Immortal. And, yes, there are things such as a Complaints email to help deal with sensitive issues like this, but I think it would be preventative maintenance for those who are already Immortals and those to be such in the future to have specific guidelines to be followed.

It needn't be complex issues like 'When roleplaying this specific MOB, keep in mind that a normal adventurer may want to just kill it outright because it's a Demon' - that's subject to the actual character and how they would respond. I mean simple things like the use of slay command and the response time of the victim being raised - 5 mins after the RP is complete? That way the character is not sitting in the Realms of the Dead for over an hour before they even hear a tell from someone.

To me, and certainly to other players, the use of slay command is almost unfair. Of course, this is not table top, but in table top you do not have a DM who throws up his hands and just says 'Your character is dead!' without a decent explaination - unless he or she is a horrible DM.

Please understand that this post is not meant to point out any particular player, but to aid in the understanding between Immortals and mundanes.

[Japcil]

Imms have their own helpfiles that pretty much describe what you are talking about, maintained by Mask and Garl and the other admins. They are set to level 53 and up so only gods who they relate to can view them.

[Rhianon]

I think what he is saying is that players should have some sort of information on what IMM's can do to them, some sort of guideline so that when things happen out of the blue they understand why and how they can handle it without getting into to much trouble. As it stands now IMM's can pretty much do whatever and the mundane player has no recourse but to take it. Yes we have the complaints department, but if truth be told depending on who is doing the complaining depends on whether or not it gets taken care of. If I remember right in a post there was a statement made saying that they don't want to have an US versus THEM attitude happening on FK, but in reality that is exactly what we have. I have played FK for quite a while, and for the most part have enjoyed it, but there have been times when things happen and they really do make you stand back and go HUH?

[Shabanna]

Well, this is not exactly what Selveem posted about... but... I have noted that on a few occasions the slay comman was used as an ooc "joke" of sorts... Not a big deal when the imm quickly puts things right... but... the problem with this for the rest of us that are present... and not privvy to the joke.. is HOW do you RP this ICLY?


One minute you are RPing and having a good time and 2 seconds later the person you are RPing with is hit with the slay command and poof is dead...OOCly someone was having a bit of a lark but ICLY it throws off an RP. I am not pointiing fingers cause.. lol yuo cant point fingers at what you can not see... but perhaps it would be considerate if the imms who are just trying to have a bit of fun with someone (another admin or NC member etc) that has access to the chat channels that the rest of us do not, could note that it can be a bit odd for the people RPing to have the person ICLY go poof or die or what not. When you do not have access to the other channels you really are not able to discern right off that it is someone being goofy and having fun... and in all honesty it can be a little disruptive for OOc stuff to happen.

I am not complaining, just curious... as it seems like there is a bit more of this going on of late peole being Killed out of the blue.. or catapulted out of the square or... any number of odd situations that seem a bit far fetched to be anything but a bit of "Imm mischeif" XD

Im not someone who thinks that there is no place for fun... but I also think that sometimes people forget that not all of us are privvy to the channel that is able to enjoy the FUN part of the insta slay for fun lol we only are the innocent bystanders wh have to come up with IC reasoning and explanations for the happenings that are.. oft not ICly easy to explain.

Um if that makes sense???
for example: Banna would never mix up a big fountain of kool-aid ICLY cause it sounds like fun... it would force the others who are playing with me to say O.o HUNH? and while it might generate some silly RP... im not sure it is the kind that the Imms would want. I see slaying for fun and profit lol to be along those lines ...as a player who is .. just a plain-old nothing-special player XD

okay .. i have rambled enough
Nite nite
" The Banna"

[Selveem]

I understand what you are saying and appreciate your attempt, however this does not really pertain to what it is I am speaking of.

I understand there are levels of immortality and that there are different commands available to different levels of Imms set through the shell as hard code. I have been an Immortal on multiple MUDs and have co-Owned one at one point, as well. That is not what I am referring to.

As a player, we cannot view said files - I am aware of this and was skirting around that fact. Realisitically, I don't care about the file and I am certain none of the other players do either.

What I am speaking of is specific Immortal conduct - easy things such as the use of slay, switch, entering RP in a degenerative fashion, etc.

Quoting Lathander:

The reason this topic, and every other one to come in this particular forum, is being discussed is that we imms are trying very hard to eliminate any Us vs Them mentality. We want the FK community to play the game as a group of people playing by the same rules. By inlvolving both players and imms alike in the rules-making process, we can arrive at a collection of commonly accepted parameters of play. It would be quite easy for the imms to create the rules and lay down the law. I do not think that is a productive approach. We expect there will be FEWER transgressions, LESS offensive rp and MORE fun by everyone if everyone has at least a say in the creation of the system.

---End of Quote---

My intention, rather than send a nasty email to the complaints and take up MORE valuable Immortal time is to produce constructive guidelines so that both Immortal and Mortal alike can both feel comfortable playing a game. Yes, all of us realize and respect that this is a game, however these are also our own hours that we are putting forth into this game. Some of us may not build nor code, but we all provide valuable RP for others to continue to enjoy said game.

It is rather disappointing to see that I am not the only one that feels sometimes it feels that after being slain as a mortal it is alright to sit in limbo for a full hour because if you log off or switch characters, you will not even be raised (thus, likely, losing faith items/intended donations to the church/roleplay items/items your character even needs to continue to succeed in their class and may be irreplacable).

Instead of allowing the frustration of feeling jerked around get to me, I am attempting to incite debate that hopefully incurs change for the better.

[Shabanna]

well , though I do not know about the specific event being discussed

I have seen someone slain by an imm for fun. It was OOC with no RP and no reason for it to occur. No complaints were filed and most tried to laugh it off etc but... for those( like myself) who did not know what was happening because they did not see the jokes that were being made on the other channels it was a bit odd

I have seen it happen more than once and heard about a couple of other occasions... so.. it seems it is not as rare as one might think. I apologize if I am way off base about the reason for this post. but , I did want clarify what I was talking about. I am not talking about an imm intervention with RP... I am talking about random acts of goofy slayage or weird echoes like
"You have a craving for KFC" ( though that one was not seen by anyone and I admit I found it highly amusing ooc!!! ) or someone being Poofed from one side of the map to the other by an imm.... for fun or a player being slayed right in the middle of an RP... for no other reason but as a bit of fun for the imms.

that was what I meant. and again I am not fussing... or pointing fingers I am simply stating what I have seen and that in my opinion...the frequency might be a bit... more than it was at one time? Maybe it is good that we open a discussion about it?

banna
( Okay im so tired... really going off to get some sleep this time lol )

[Ceara]

I'm not certain Selveem is actually talking about a real event but rather using a hypothetical one as an example.

However, I do agree that there should be some form of help file covering immortal conduct which includes information on the complaint process and how to go about it.

Mortals get a code of coduct set of rules that anyone can look at any time. How then, since we do not know the rules imms are to abide by, do we know when to make a complaint? How also do we trust that if we do make a complaint when there are no rules set before us, that we won't just be told to suck it up and rp it out, even if a rule has been broken that we don't know of.

Personally I think that most of the imms do a great job, though I do agree that there should be a guideline for imms, that mortals have access to. It would first off perhaps cut down the amount of complaints because we know wether or not they actually are toeing the line or outright crossing it, and secondly a person if they do have a legitimate complaint can then better articulate it and give more relevant examples.

While we are on the subject of conduct, I have personally felt as though I had no way to complain in the past. When an immortal has done or said something I thought was unfair or unjustified and they refuse to tell me who they are saying they do not have to tell me.
This automatically makes me think they know they are in the wrong and don't want me to send in a complaint. I actually complained about this and was told to just send in the complaint anyway but how will other imms know who to direct any recourse to? It made me feel that it didn't matter wether I complained or not, nothing would be done.
I also find it very rude on a personal level to not reveal who they are.

[Selveem]

Ah, yes, Ceara - unknowingly you have found a subject that has bothered the hell out of me too: An Immortal doing something and then refusing to tell you who they are. Now, certainly the Imm feels they have a good reason. I, however, as a player, fail to see it. In the past when I co-Owned and on three of the four MUDs I was a builder at, there was no hiding behind wizi command when an RP occurred or stats had to be changed or there was an item to be removed/replaced and a player felt wronged. The player had every right to know who to make a complaint of. On FK, in the past, I have run into this problem several times - an Immortal participates in an RP that goes unfavorably for me (and, in my opinion truly should not have based on my stats/skills/etc.) but then refuses to allow me knowledge of who they are so that I even know who I am complaining about.

That, in my opinion is unfair. No one likes powers or authority lorded over them. It would be like me pushing around a newbie because I have disintegrate and could kill them in one round and hanging it over their head (even though I know I can't use it). Not that I would do something like this but I'm trying to get across how it feels. Everyone makes mistakes, Immortal and Mortal alike.

[Amalia]

I've never had an issue with any IMM myself, but I think the suggestion (at least as I percieve it) here is a good one-- I think it would make many players feel more at ease, and develop a better sense of community, if the rules for everyone were laid out publically rather than only the rules for mortals. Further, if the rules for IMMs were made public to the playerbase, it would be possible to contest a rule rather than to complain about an actual IMM if the issue is with the rule itself. It would still obviously have to be the case that the IMMs have the final say on whether a given rule stays or changes, but it would allow players to at least be aware of what kind of controls they can be expecting from the IMM staff, and what kind of treatment they can expect not to undergo, or at least have recourse if something against IMM rules does happen-- not to mention the fact that if a rule is brought up for review by the players, if it's not changed, the players who don't like it will at least learn why it's in place, and that's always easier to accept than "because we said so."

[Scylere]

Personally, I don't think it's a player's job or right to "police" the IMMs; they watch each other.

[Dalvyn]

I'm not answering the main point of this thread, but only the part about imms not revealing who they are.

This is unnecessary and would only serve to generate bad feelings. Why would you need to know what imm said this or that? Why would you need to know what imm punished you for what they saw as bad roleplay? The imms as a group "endorse" the actions of all imms, so who says what does not matter.

I do not mean that all the things imms do are all fine and appreciated by all the imms: some things warrant a complaint and are then treated "internally" amongst the imms. What I mean is that the imms do not solve problems by putting the blame on individual imms (well, except when there's a code-related problem or an area-related problem: in those cases, the blame is put on one imm only).

Assume that imm X has observed player Y for a long time and has seen bad roleplay repeatedly from that character. Let's say that imm X has sent divine messages to Y to incite him/her to improve on his/her roleplay and those messages were ignored. Let's say then that X decides to involve Y in a roleplay where the IC deity's displeasure actually has consequences. If you then have a problem with the events, you should send in a complaint about what happened. Who imm X is (or who the multiple imms behind the events are) does not and should not matter. If you want to blame someone, blame the imms as a group.

Giving out imms' names would lead to "good imms/bad imms" classifications that do not serve any constructive purpose. All imms have their highs and their lows, and none can be classified as perfect imms or sucky imms.

[Lathander]

I'll address a few of these. I appreciate the fact that Selveem is trying to not be specific; however, I think sometimes skirting the isssue can be troublesome.

1. The recent use of the slay command that caused someone to sit in the Realms of the Dead for an hour.
- That was me.
- It was part of an IC rp and not an OOC joke.
- There were MANY players present at the time and location.
- I did not throw up my hands and say "you're dead" with no explanation. There were echoes that lead to the rp and an object that continued after the player was slain. There wasn't much rp around that, unfortunately, but it was not without explanation.
- As for what the specific explanation might be, well that was SUPPOSED to be for players to rp and discover.
- The slayed PC made no attempt to contact any living PCs ICly.
- No living PCs made any attempt to contact the slayed PC until much later, and even then, it was made by a PC that wasn't even present at the event.
- An hour in the Fugue Plain is not an eternity. Some players, even myself as a mortal, have waited real days for life to be returned. Yes, even when slayed.
- Sometimes it should be the imm's responsibility to raise a PC. This wasn't one of them. There were several possible PLAYER ways for the PC to be brought back. Those options were not enacted.
- If as part of an imm-run rp a PC is slain and there are IC player-initiated options available, they should be explored first.
- On a PERSONAL level. When I hear complaining like this about not getting an imm to directly raise a PC within an hour I want to weigh it against complaints that PCs are excluded from imm-run rps. This rp was not to be centered only on the PC that was slain. There was going to be more to it.

2. On the point of knowing which imm said what to whom, I agree with Dalvyn. Though it is correcctly stated that players are not privy to the discussions, imms DO police themselves. When a complaint arrives about an imm, it is discussed among the imms on how to improve for the next time. Do ALL players police themselves as well? We continue to have banned players return, get rooted out and get banned again. Do they tell us who they are when they try to break the rules? Do those players who are aware of their presence come forth?

3. I've been one to occassionally do a "joke" slaying OOC. In those instances I do immediately return the slayed. I did not realize it caused such a large upheaval in personal rps. I won't do them anymore and apologize for any prior inconveniences.

[Lathander]

A note about imm philosophy, or more correctly, deity philosophy:

The imm/person running a particular deity is the arbiter of what that faith is within FK. Not FR, FK. A given player might consider him/herself an authority on Faith X because of materials they have read. It doesn't make that person correct. If an imm punishes or rewards a PC for actions regarding a Faith, then it should be taken that way IC. Complaints telling imms that they are wrong in their interpretation of a Faith's doctrine are welcome and we will always read and discuss them; however, we don't always keep to what one person or another thinks is correct. If a PC is punished/rewarded, that is a good IC sign of what the deity desires. If rewarded, keep doing those things. If punished, he/she should change their ways. Do not keep doing the types of things that got a PC ICly punished under the OOC argument that the player has source material to back up their actions.

The creator of FR, Ed Greenwood, addresses this concept of flexibility among DMs. The written source material relied upon by any player should be considered excellent guides to the lands of FK, but it is not right for anyone to waive them at imms (or other players) and say "SEE! This is how is must be done!"

Please note that I am not claiming that 'my' Realms vision is The One True Way. The moment the Realms became a shared world, it was both inevitable and intended that it reflect lots of different creative interests, doing their own thing and going in different directions.

and...

RAEs [Realms Altering Events] and RSEs [Realms Shattering Events]matter a lot less when the focus is on out-of-a-character's-eyes roleplaying...and so do things such as the birthdate of Karsus, or which god did what to whom, ages ago. It doesn't really matter, and your character has no way of really learning the truth and knowing it to be the truth. We all like to cling to absolute truths, yes, but that's an animal that more explorers claim to have seen than have actually brought one back to show the rest of us...

So please, let the imm/players play their characters too. If I as Lathander see something differently than the books show (e.g. Mask is the enemy] then I should be able to go with it, and so should any other imm.

[Vindur]

The imm/person running a particular deity is the arbiter of what that faith is within FK. Not FR, FK.

Since people could come to this mud interested in FR could the deities that know that their deities diverge from the books, write down these divergences somewhere?

If I were new to the mud but no from FR and someone told me that X deity is the enemy of Y deity, I would like to read about it, and although I RPed the learning of the faith IC I would like these divergences written down somewhere in order to make it fairer.

[Selveem]

Lathander, please understand I am not talking specifically about this event. I am talking about general actions and the effects they have not only on the player but also on the PCs as well.

While an Immortal may see an IC slaying from a giant clod of mud that decends on the market square (obliterating the entire Market Square), yet only killing the smallest possible creature in the square (who has a high amount of luck) as an RP opportunity, this is the kind of thing that leave players scratching their head wondering how in the world it makes sense.

I understand that Immortals want us to find our own way, but you also must consider exactly how IC it is for that character to contact the other PCs as well. In my case, I understand you expected me to explore such 'opportunities,' but by that same token there were 26 people online at that time - I knew one of them (aside from myself) and it would not be IC for me to contact that particular person. No other player had greeted me.

I keep logs of events so that I can re-read them at a later time during offline times to critique myself, actually. I have this particular log and yes, I did think about requesting aid, but at the same time I did not care to be punished for acting OOCly just to get raised when an Immortal knew I was dead and (to my knowledge) would see to it that I was helped.

In the past, I have been yelled at for raising PCs during Imm RPs because of the loss of exp that is incurred. Exp is a very difficult thing to obtain now that the code change has gone through and I didn't expect that an Immortal who slayed me had expected me to incur such a cost for something I had no control over.

This is a time when set, defined outlinings of Immortal Conduct would have aided me. Apparently some Imms don't mind PCs raised during RPs by players and yet others do. How are we supposed to know if we don't know which Imm is heading the RP or there is no standardized practice?

[Dalvyn]

The imm/person running a particular deity is the arbiter of what that faith is within FK. Not FR, FK.

Since people could come to this mud interested in FR could the deities that know that their deities diverge from the books, write down these divergences somewhere?

If I were new to the mud but no from FR and someone told me that X deity is the enemy of Y deity, I would like to read about it, and although I RPed the learning of the faith IC I would like these divergences written down somewhere in order to make it fairer.

Actually, what this means is that, if player X finds that imm Y plays deity Y in a wrong way (rewards/punishes at inappropriate moments), they are welcome to send in their point of view and explain why they thing it's wrong. That might generate a debate with the players and the imms and/or amongst the imms, but the final decision in this case is always up to the imm.

That's quite similar to how the DM would determine how the gods react to your character's actions in a table-top game. If you, as a player, think that the gods would not react like that, you can share you opinion with the DM and talk it out (you might make the DM change his mind or not) but, in the end, "the DM is always right".

That being said, I have only seen one instance of something like that, and that instance - in my opinion - comes from differences of interpretation about some parts of a deity's ethos. It was put to the debate amongst the imms, after a player said he disagreed, and the imms collectively decided which interpretation was to be used on FK.

So, basically, as far as the imms are concerned, there is no difference between official FR lore and FK, as far as the gods are concerned. We stick to the information written in the various source books. The only issue - the one that I mention above - is a question of interpretation and, from our point of view, we follow the official lore.

[Dalvyn]

In the past, I have been yelled at for raising PCs during Imm RPs because of the loss of exp that is incurred.

Actually, I was running that other roleplay. And I sent you an echo because you found the corpse, then immediately brought it to a healer mob, paid for the resurrection (I think - I don't have a very good memory unfortunately) then quickly told them to stay put and went on on your own to face whatever the roleplay was about.

My qualms were that you

a) used the cheap (rp-wise, not money-wise) mob solution,
b) did that without contacting anybody,
c) rushed through it in only a few seconds, not allowing me to do as much as an echo,
d) told the character to basically stay out of the roleplay, and
e) ran into the roleplay on your own.

I take the blame for not conveying those reasons more precisely though. My only excuse is that, while running a roleplay, we don't really have the time to sit down and chat about the finer details of what we consider good player behaviour.

[Lathander]

I'm not stating that any PC should be raised immediately after death during an rp. Most, if not all, imms frown on that. I am stating that arrangements for return could have be discussed. I understand that some PCs, as a course of their rp, do not greet others or do not invite others to greet them. That is perfectly acceptable, but does come with consequences - one of which might be that it is harder to get help when you die. I have at least one PC in this boat myself and it has been VERY hard when I die to get help. But I live with it as a consequence for my choice not to greet.

As for whether or not an imm helps out with a raising as part of an rp, that's up to the imm. Although, I really need to state that I don't know of any imm, myself included, who would let someone languish for too long in the Fugue. It then comes down to "how long is too long?" and that question is subjective. I don't think and hour is too long, especially when there are PCs about who can help. And as far as I know, help had arrived (or at least begun to arrive, via a player) when I logged off. Had nothing happened before I logged off, I would have helped directly. No imm rules need be stated for that. We do have rules, we all had to agree to them before being given the position.

Leaving player(s) scratching their heads as to why it happened is part of the rp. Hmmmm, what's this big ball of mud doing here? How did it get here? What dropped it? etc. It is SUPPOSED to leave you scratching your head. In all honesty - and I'm NOT saying this to irk anyone, just to express my opinion - situations like this where we can't roll with an rp and make something out of it rather than complain about it lessens my desire as an imm to instigate anything.

There were civilians killed in the mud blast, buildings shattered, etc. There was only one PC killed, yes. But that left many others to help the dead PC. It might make a difference that many of those PCs were evil and didn't want to help ICly. But I don't really know why no one wanted to assist.

[Selveem]

Actually, I was running that other roleplay. And I sent you an echo because you found the corpse, then immediately brought it to a healer mob, paid for the resurrection (I think - I don't have a very good memory unfortunately) then quickly told them to stay put and went on on your own to face whatever the roleplay was about.

My qualms were that you

a) used the cheap (rp-wise, not money-wise) mob solution,
b) did that without contacting anybody,
c) rushed through it in only a few seconds, not allowing me to do as much as an echo,
d) told the character to basically stay out of the roleplay, and
e) ran into the roleplay on your own.

I take the blame for not conveying those reasons more precisely though. My only excuse is that, while running a roleplay, we don't really have the time to sit down and chat about the finer details of what we consider good player behaviour.

Actually, that is quite subjective. The fact that you had little time to as much as echo is silly. That basher almost killed me. Also, I did not tell them to stay out of the RP. I requested they protect the temple of Oghma. I have no immortal characters nor the authority of an immortal. I do not begin to tell people how they should play their characters - they could just have easily not heeded my warning.

The roleplay I "ran into" was in the middle of me sparring with a Tempurian wishful. I was actually very much content with RPing the swings as the character was not even high enough level to 'murder' me on killmode stun. I actually prefer this. I actually ignored the first echo because I felt that Selveem was far enough away and engaged enough that he may not have heard it at first. However, "HELP I'M DYING AT THE HANDS OF *insert mob name here*" is pretty hard to ignore. That was when Selveem took the person he was dueling and entered the RP.

Can I help it that I survived the obviously overpowered mob that killed 2 PCs and 1 well-known shop keeper just nearby the square? Of course not. I acted as Selveem would have. I didn't ask to be compensated for the expensive cost of platinum I used to aid said PCs. I didn't even complain. My efforts were rewarded with this:

When people die during a roleplay, don't drag them off to a priest to get them insta-raised without giving people time to ROLEPLAY.

Also, raise dead means they lose experience, while an imm will most likely have planned to have them resurrected.

Finally, roleplays are generally not made so that ONE character can get all the glory and do everything on his own.

Does that really sound as if it is encouraging players to interact with other people and join in Imm-run RPs? I actually have been staying completely out of them since this event. I had no control over this particular event in the Market Square - Unless it's now acceptable to just log off in the middle of RP.

Lathander, I understand what you're saying. In truth, I know few Imms now, but you are one of the ones I have always held to very high standard because of the level-headedness I have seen from you so many times in the past. I have enjoyed many RPs with you which one of them will be published in a book in the form of Selveem's biography written by another character (if I am still allowed to continue playing here after all of this is settled).

Unfortunately, I completely disagree with you on this. It was 2:30am my time when this happened. I had logged Xaden on to just RP with a few people as I started to wind down for the night. Due to this sudden death, I was up well past 4am. It was past 3:30 my time before anyone even bothered to send me a tell and I was VERY lucky that she had. Needless to say, I was pretty pissed after what you apparently felt was a 'short' amount of time. I do not consider this short - especially considering the hour.

[Lathander]

Thank you for the kind words about my level-headedness. Two more points:

1.

(if I am still allowed to continue playing here after all of this is settled).

Open discussion, regardless of the fact that we most definitely do not agree on things regarding this issue, does not generally result in someone being banned.

2.

It was 2:30am my time when this happened. I had logged Xaden on to just RP with a few people as I started to wind down for the night. Due to this sudden death, I was up well past 4am.

Imms are people too. If timing is an issue, it is perfectly acceptable to use OOC means to let us know. This happens frequently in rps. A simple "Hey, it's 3:00 a.m. and I have to work in the morning, can you help me out?" works just fine.