Immortal Conduct

[Yzelle]

So please, let the imm/players play their characters too. If I as Lathander see something differently than the books show (e.g. Mask is the enemy] then I should be able to go with it, and so should any other imm.

This is the casualty of having a campaign based on an official campaign setting, is that the actions of PCs in a game can also affect universal truths of the setting.

It makes perfect sense for Lathander to have an attitue of emnity with Mask, even if you just extrapolate the passage on Lathander in the official source material. He is an ultra-idealist who takes a stand against ALL evil, even a dark mischief sort of evil that Mask would represent. But on top of this... IC events in the FK world, would have likely set Mask's followers as one of the Dawn's nemesis. Catching up a little on the FK gossip would likely reveal the reasons as to why... other than that, I'll say nothing more about it.

[Raona]

Specifically related to the original topic of this post (and NOT to any specific situation):
Immprovement - if I can dare to coin a term - comes through well-intentioned Imms having, taking, or making the time to reflect. We can do our part by filing thoughtful comments/requests to the "complaints" address (maybe it needs a new name?) when we feel wronged (and it's really that feeling we should convey, not a conviction that an Imm did, in fact, mis-step; often our feelings reflect an incomplete understanding of a situation on our parts, often born of an over-estimation of what we do and don't know as players, on the part of the Imms!), and also letting them know when we think they did a particularly great job. I really don't think that a "published" set of rules would help improve things. There never was such a thing for the DM in my IRL DnD games - but there was a reasonable set of expectations. A DM could be good, or bad, and it wasn't in whether they followed a specific set of rules, written or unwritten - it was their DM work in the whole. When they did something I thought unfair, I'd go OOC and tell them - respectfully, and mindful of the fact that they were the DM, the ultimate arbiter. The good ones would consider my plea, and either adjust, or stick to their guns, but not hold my complaint against me. They trusted me to be raising an issue in good faith, and would respect me for doing so even when they thought it frivolous. I in turn respected their judgment, and in some cases (as the story unfolded) came to see that there was reason to what I earlier thought to be their madness. When these expectations were found wanting, I found it hopeless to try to reform the Imm...I picked up my dice and went elsewhere.

I feel our Imm (DM) team here is great. They do make mistakes (and as a Watch Member Raona has sometimes been put in the difficult situation of trying to put such things right), but they want to do a great job, and for the most part they do. They talk things over with each other, and in my experience generally do not abuse their power. I think they "police" each other, because they all love the game and want to make it/keep it great. New Imms have a learning curve just like new PCs, and even those with great experience make mistakes. Maybe it is just because I choose to trust in the Imm's intentions, or because if they've ever done me wrong, I haven't realized it - but that viewpoint is one I'd urge upon everyone as their default. Don't look for reasons to believe they are out to get you/don't like you, because without question, if that is what you are looking for, you will see it, imagined or real.

In the end, the fate of FK rests in part on the player base trusting, respecting, and appreciating the Imm team. It's a necessary, but not a sufficient, condition. If it falls apart, the game falls apart and the Imms have nothing to administer. I think we need to realize that we aren't going to change the Imm team "from below" by quoting rules to them. It's my understanding that all the Imms see the complaints emails. I trust that if a particular Imm mis-steps, the rest will point it out to them (or more likely, they will see it for themselves.) If the whole of the Imm team is "against you," though, I don't think you have a good choice save to adjust to be a better player in their eyes, or find a place where your style of RP/play is more appreciated. Put another way, if you find that you need to file many complaints, and that without exception you are told by the Imm team that they don't see the merit in your complaint - you are probably trying to play a different game than they are. That happens. With the huge MUD universe, there's likely one out there more your taste. You'll have much more hope looking for and finding that one than trying to tell the Imm team they need to change their priorities and perspectives, I think.

Specific to the case at hand (which I know of only in so far as I read about it here), I will add this: Selveem, please do not take what I write above to suggest anything to you in particular. I am speaking in the general case. I know that you are a thoughtful player more than capable of making a cogent argument. I'd encourage you to take up any remaining issues relating to specific cases in a private forum (PM, as you now know who to PM), rather than here. I believe you may place stats and skills in higher regard as arbiters than do the Imms here - your own experience as an Imm elsewhere probably complicates that. Keep in mind that you no doubt at some point told some players on your MUDs "Sorry, that's what the stats/skills say should happen" and found some of them frustrated at your dedication to placing numbers on character sheets in such high esteem when deciding outcomes. It's not the only reasonable DM approach, I think, in a fantasy setting.

Finally, going general again: I do think it would be good for players to have a clearer idea of when they should feel free to make OOC requests. I know that I have been up way past bed-time, or late for something, because I didn't know I could (or how to) request OOC consideration of an Imm or other players. I'm not sure I understand it well enough myself yet, but I'm willing to try to write a HELP on this issue if nobody beats me to the punch. Topics like "I need to leave the game for OOC reasons, but I'm stuck in an IC situation...what do I do?" and "Can I ASK for help motivated by IC desperation? (Without coming across as a whiney, sniveling player?)"

[Solaghar]

Raona makes a very telling post. I don't know what kind of campaigns she has played IRL but when I did tabletop campaigns, it was always with a group of good friends. If I though tthey were wrong (which they were as frequently as anyone else) we were always free to tell them. We'd pause, look up, argue our cases and then decide what seemed reasonable. I've never experienced someone becoming so bitter with a DM's decisions that they walked away from the game altogether, and that sounds kind of ridiculous to me, it's a game you're playing with friends. That is a very, very different situation than what exists here. Most of us don't start off on the game as friends with the admins, nor do we really get a chance to do so. Every admin has their own likes and dislikes. Every admin I'm sure is also motivated by favoritism even if it's the low-level favoritism of just chatting often with those players their own characters grew up with, the playful slaying of people they like in fun, the chumminess of those on the newbie council as opposed to normal players, the fact that they have access to an chat line which allows them to bond with the immortals while others are just nothing more than random faces does a lot, I think, to increase the idea that there are groups of players who are well-liked and those who are generally just ignored (I don't think anyone is specifically persecuted, though when random bad things happen to you it can feel like that).

To those of us with no access to these things, when immortals take action against us, it's just a sense of powerlessness. I've sent in complaints before to the complaints board and never gotten even a response. Maybe they didn't feel like one was necessary, maybe they took some action, who knows? I probably wouldn't send in another complaint though, even for a serious matter, because I don't get the feeling like anyone even read it. The same with building lately, I've been building an area for more than a RL year now, and I send emails to the person tasked by the immortals with preparing the area for me, months go by without a response. So I let the immortals know about this and again, no response. So as I try to help out the game by contributing actively, I get the feeling like no one really cares about that and it's a bit depressing.

The reason that people get frustrated and feel this way is that there is no interaction between the admins and the much larger group of players who aren't in the friendly zone. I don't consider us persecuted or looked down upon, but there's never any give and take and usually not so much as an OOC explanation for why things are done to us, why steps might not be taken, etc. If someone sends in a complaint, at least let people know it was received and what the outcome is, either positive or negative for them because it's obviously something that was upsetting them. When immortals decide to switch someone's race, it can have a major effect.

When I started playing here, I was convinced to come by a friend of mine who played a character, Darmeth Tul. I never experienced his RP because he was on the surface and I was only in the Underdark, but he was under the impression he made one mistake and got changed into a goblin. Whether this is true or not, it's the impression he had, that he made one wrong move after doing a great job at RP for a while, having an interesting character people liked, and he took one wrong step and got turned into a goblin, and after getting tired of roleplaying a goblin, he just stopped playing altogether. He was never told what he might do to rectify the situation, he just went from being someone who got frequent, positive admin interaction to being turned into a goblin and he felt, ignored and disliked by the admins. He stopped playing shortly after. Is it a persecution complex? Maybe to an extent, but in a medium like the internet, when we don't get to talk to one another, it's very easy to misconstrue what others do and say. There's no tone to our voices, and it's honestly very easy for the people who admin to make snap judgments based only on what they see in a moment's time.

I used to be on the question answering council, when it first started. One day I stopped seeing questions, no one ever told me why I was removed, though I generally presume it was because I didn't answer enough questions. No one ever asked me why I don't answer more, if that is the reason, and the reason was indeed because I generally refrained from answering questions whose answer was just "Well you need to email the admins" because in a situation like that, I would have preferred to let an admin deal with it altogether. On the questions I could answer, let's just say I felt like it was a race to pick those easy ones up and I guess my reflexes weren't as good as others. Maybe that wasn't the reason I was removed, but I honestly have no idea, no one even bothered to tell me. Honestly it did hurt me because I felt like I had done something wrong without even being told what I did, to have a privilige removed, even the privilige of helping others, is a punishment.

That is, I feel, somewhat indicative of the way that people can be treated here. I think for a large part that the admins feel they don't owe people any explanation at all for any action. We're all human beings and I'm sure there are those that some admins like and some admins dislike. We're just a bunch of random strangers who all found the same IP address and like the same sort of game... many of us have different styles of play. Some admins dislike people they see as power players who are interested only in skills and the like. I would say to them, take an honest look at your own oldest, most well-played characters, and show everyone a list of their skills, spells, trades.

Players who play the game now aren't any different than your own characters used to be. When you play D&D with your friends, you love the roleplay, you love the fun of being with your friends, but part of the fun of D&D is all of the options you have for specializing your character, all of the spells, equipment, and the like you'd love to get that give you new, amazing abilities. It wouldn't be D&D without that stuff, and I imagine most people here would not enjoy RPing on say, a roleplay-intensive MUSH where mobs don't even exist and all death is permadeath for your character. I think that admins are just as likely to get into their minds an idealized picture of how players either "used to be" or "should be" and that includes things like not caring about stats or skills or feats, just plain roleplay. I mention these things because it seems like they're the biggest problem many people have, and I do blame some of it on the gamecode itself. In D&D, once you learn a spell, there's no gradation to your ability in that spell. Someone who casts fireball for the first time is no worse at casting it than someone who casts it for the 10,000th time. How good you are with a sword depends on your feats and stats and level, not whether you've run through Shilmista 1000 times to get your blade levels up.

In the end what I'm trying to say is that players and admins are for the most part the same. The players on the newbie council, the question answerers, are just as likely to do most of the same things that players are supposed to not do now, the only difference is they did it when such things might not have been frowned upon so vehemently, or they're better at hiding it, or they're luckier. Players now can get yelled at or even have characters deleted for twinking their stats for instance, I've heard of the bugbear with an 18 int and 4 cha, which I agree, is stupid. But is it any stupider than in the old days, the same bugbear might have had enough stat points to have all 18s in his other stats and a mere 16 in charisma, just because there were so many stat points?

I honestly feel like admins do need to be more open with people. I think if they do something that will affect a character, they should give that character a reasoned explanation why it was done. I think that the stupidity of unwritten rules like, "Don't raise someone during an IMM RP" need to be rethought. Because the problem with unwritten assumptions is that people are always running across them for the first time. I too have been yelled at for that stupid reason, only the problem was I had reincarnated myself as Solaghar, my first ever death. I was killed by an immortal and this was in the Underdark, there were very few people around and I didn't even know at the time if people were inclined to raise those they had killed. I'd never died here before, didn't know what to do. After about an hour, I reincarnated and found there was RP still going on, and I got yelled at for "not knowing that I would be raised." It was frustrating, but I moved on, I hadn't even thought about it in years. When I came to the surface as Zarafae, I found a whole new set of assumptions in dealing with others I hadn't experienced before, despite having played here for a while, because you don't experience that stuff in the Underdark, I was in a sense a newbie all over again.

Now I know lots of unwritten rules. This game is actively geared towards good and neutral characters to an extent. Dalvyn has said that himself, that he doesn't feel our playerbase is sufficient to handle that. He doesn't like Drow RP, maybe because he doesn't like it or maybe because he has a very serious idea in his mind of how Drow should act and wants them to remain as very serious villains, not get watered down by mediocre players, and only leaves the Underdark as a separate world because there are some people who inexplicably seem to like it. Nowhere in the rules files does it say this, yet it is a reality of this game. When you look up this game on mudconnect.com, which we're all voting to get higher and higher in the ratings, right there on the front it advertises creating a character in Menzoberranzan. In advertisements, in character creation, we offer the Drow as something to draw in people from outside who like that kind of roleplay, yet the reality of the game is that it's frowned upon or seen as a waste of time. That is the contrast between the unwritten rules and what people might expect in the game, and it's just one example.

When it comes to what is expected of players here, there are the unwritten rules that people are expected to follow but you only learn often after doing something that violates them, and the written rules. I think better communication will help a ton, and I don't just mean better communication between the admins and the people they already communicate with. I think opening up a MUD-wide chat line which the admins actively communicate on would help people feel like we can *all* relate to one-another. It's already available for one tier of players. This would, in fact, be better I think than the ask system we have now. Why is it being kept track of in terms of who answers what questions like it's another scorecard? Just have a question chat channel where people who have questions can ask them and those who know can answer, even chiming in with one-another, because the answerers don't always know themselves. This is how it is on every other game I've ever played and it always worked well, so long as you understand you have to answer questions seriously and with all honesty or be removed from the channel.

It would be nice to see immortals interacting with people as our friends. The idea of the tabletop group and how things work there keeps coming up, but this game feels nothing like a tabletop game to me. Immortals feel to a lot of people on this game like something to be avoided because all we see out of them is anonymous judgment handed down from on high. I come here to play with my friends, and I've made a lot of new ones. I chat with them even when I'm not playing the game. Many of us are planning a traditional campaign right now over the internet, just because we think it would be fun. I don't expect the DM in this game to be someone who silently hands down punishments or rewards. Players are stupid! They need hints. If they do something wrong, don't just let them know what they did wrong, you probably need to let them know how to fix it. Everyone has different ideas in their minds of how obvious they're making things. What is transparent to one person might be completely opaque to another. Give people explanations. Talk to people openly. Talk to people *visibly*. I know you want to appear as a monolithic bloc that speaks as one, but if you're trying to prevent some admins from being seen as favorites, ask instead why those admins would be seen as favorites? Are they nicer? Are they more understanding? Are they more willing to offer an explanation for the things they do and communicate with the players? Are they acting in fact, more like a friend and a DM rather than some random person whose job it is merely to judge you? I've gone off on a bunch of tangents so I think I'll just end this now.

[Lathander]

Boy, that was a mouthful. It seems that we can divide your concerns into two categories: Questions you have and things you'd like to see changed. Rather than try to quote and respond to each and every one of the many points you bring up, I'm going to put the burden on you. Make an itemized list of the questions you want answered. Make them specific questions regarding the way the mud is managed and not "why did so and so get turned into such and such." I will then make threads for each topic answer those questions. Below the list of questions list the things you would like to see changed. I'll then take the same approach with those.

Please make each question and each constructive suggestion for improvement brief, but specific. Also, please understand that admins have concerns too about the doings of players. When composing your questions/suggestions keep in mind that this should not be a one-sided thing for you (or any group of players) to point the finger at admins and tell us how bad a job you think we are doing.

Topics that I do not feel comfortable addressing unilaterally will be discussed among the imms and then a response will be posted.

[Dalvyn]

Just answering a few random points from your post - mostly the tangents.

Re: your area. Actually, believe it or not, I added it to the game earlier today (4-5 hours before I saw your post), after toning down a few things. I browsed through my old mails and decided to clean them up, which is how I found back the mail about your area.

Re: "chat" channel. The name is misleading. This is is no way a "chat" channel. I'm not going to be hypocritical and say that it is never used as a chat channel though. It sometimes is, often by some, seldom by others. It is mostly used to coordinate things or to discuss various topics/rules/game improvements. At some point, access to it was granted to people in the code council, even though there was no reason for it. It's been fixed since then.

Re: answering questions. Currently, it's a bit vague, and I think we strayed too far away from the initial idea, which was that all the players who wanted to answer questions would be welcome and given access to the required commands. That's another debate, but I, for one, would be all for allowing all players to join in. There are actually "elder answerers" who have the ability to control how people answer.

Re: drow. That's a whole can of worms, and one that is better debated in another thread. I see drow as a possible menace to the "integrity" of the mud. The drow option has a very high twinking potential and "coolness" factor. The same can be said about evil, to a lesser extent. Those options have a very high attraction potential towards non-mature players and can be ruined easily. Those options require thought, maturity, and preparation; players who would select them just for the "coolness" factor, without thinking about how to roleplay such a character to benefit the mud as a whole are very likely to play a very damaging drow/evil. And yes, the same could be said - to a lesser extent - about orcs and other monstrous races.

Re: discussions. While revising the mud, one of our main goals was to try and allow for more open discussions. Threads are not closed anymore. Criticism is answered with arguments and not just deleted. We encourage players to submit ideas and have opened many topics to the discussion. I can see that those efforts were not complete enough, but you cannot really blame the imms about not being ready to discuss anything.

Re: "Don't raise someone during an IMM RP" I believe that there is a very serious communication problem there, and it is one that I actually have a hard time remaining calm about (not sure why, actually). It might be the language barrier in my case, or it might be because some people just do not pay attention to what they are told, or it might be that things are not said in a sufficiently clear way. I'll take my post above as an example, but my goal here is not to single out Selveem, because this is certainly not the only occurrence of the problem - only the easiest one to reference, since it was cited in this thread.

The echoes were the following ones.

When people die during a roleplay, don't drag them off to a priest to get them insta-raised without giving people time to ROLEPLAY.
Also, raise dead means they lose experience, while an imm will most likely have planned to have them resurrected.
Finally, roleplays are generally not made so that ONE character can get all the glory and do everything on his own.

What does the first echo say? Does it say that you shouldn't raise people during an imm-run roleplay? No. It says that you shouldn't have people insta-raised by mobs. What happened is that the corpse was immediately dragged to a priest and immediately raised, with no time given to anyone (the dead one, the imm though an echo or through the priest mob) to react/roleplay. That is precisely what the echo says, and this is precisely what I meant.

In your post, you present "do not raise PCs during an imm-roleplay" as a rule. In his post, Selveem indicates that the mob who was part of the roleplay nearly killed him, that he did not react immediately to the "Help I'm dying" echo, and that I am blaming him for the fact that he managed to kill the mod ?!? None of this is related to what the echo means. So, yes, there is definitely a communication problem. In that, I agree.

[Solaghar]

I don't really have any questions I want answered. I know that somewhere, someone has a reason for whatever was done to certain people regarding specific events. I only bring them up as examples of what I think is the main problem which is lack of communication as to the reasons why things are done. While I did bring up specific things that happened to me, I only did so because they're situations I am familiar with and I very much hope that I'm not the only one who has dealt with similar situations. When I brought up being removed from the question answerer group for example, it wasn't because I was interested in finding out why, but merely to point out that things are done and no explanation is felt necessary which people can not help but see as a punishment. In RP situations where people are changed into goblins or have other things done to them, perhaps they really are thinking to themselves, "Wow, X player really will enjoy the widened RP options this change will give him as he experiences a whole new fun RP for a while." but unless someone communicates such things to the player, how are they supposed to know?

But I will do as you ask and line up the main problems I have, though I don't claim to have easy answers to them because they're problems every game like this experiences.

1) Game is designed towards doing exactly the things admins don't want players to do

My statement about the Bugbear's stats is my example of this. In the past, stat points were so ubiquitous, training so simple, money so easy to come by, magical items less rare and more powerful. There is a concerted effort now to make magical items less rare and more mundane so as not to off-balance the game. Money has been made much more difficult to obtain compared to the past. It's not desired that every mob drop coins perhaps, or that too much can be sold in one town. But by making these changes so that money becomes more rare, all you do is force the people who need it to go to the few places they still can make money. This is mostly a problem for younger players and for people who don't know everywhere you can go in the game to get things, so therefore it's a problem that disproportionately affects new players, young players.

If I truly wanted to, I could easily become quite wealthy, but it would be by repeat killing of the same few mobs, selling of the same few items until I had taken all the money from each town I could, which is exactly the kind of area or mob-razing behavior that you are in essence, trying to combat. Hartsvale was once where people went for money and training, so the mobs were made harder and dropped less money. Shilmista elves drop their coins rarely now, and many creatures now drop nothing at all. Armor or weapons that a person might be wearing magically evaporates without explanation the moment they die, despite what may occur in real D&D, where if you do kill someone, their things don't just turn to dust. While I understand you don't want too many people selling too many things, it's quite simple to set a worth on an object via the code.

2) Unwritten rules characterize a great deal of player/admin interaction and the way people are judged

My statement about Menzoberranzan and the Drow being active options for players which aren't just available but are actively advertised is one example of this. Drow RP is something Dalvyn has characterized to me as a waste of time, those who labor on expanding the Underdark such as Duranamir and I, merely laboring pointlessly and in fact, detrimental to the MUD by splitting up the roleplay. To a lesser extent, this same attitude is carried over towards many evils in general. Dalvyn has also stated that this game is focused on good and neutral players, obviously the easiest to build a game towards and the most likely to work together. Waterdeep is the focus of RP. If you're not someone who spends time there, don't expect to get the same sort of interaction. I know a large evil/neutral RP with the purple sphere is planned, and it's honestly the first one I can remember. I've never seen an admin-sponsored RP in the Underdark since I started playing here in 2003, nor one specifically offered to those in Zhentil Keep or Westgate or any other focal point of evil RP.

This is an unwritten rule. Evil players aren't supposed to expect the same amount of positive admin interaction as people in Waterdeep, but there's nothing in the rules that says this, they don't advertise this on the mudconnect.com listing, obviously. To an extent they *can* get this interaction, but only by going to Waterdeep itself, though they should fully expect to be excluded for obvious and perfectly legitimate IC reasons. Almost exclusively, any unevenness in the game will be skewed towards good players rather than evil, towards Waterdeep rather than elsewhere. Any admins reading this, ask how often you do renames in other cities (as opposed to general game-wide renames available to all). Spending more than 1500 hours in Menzoberranzan and Skullport on two characters, I've never seen one. But to see certain people who spend their time in Waterdeep, there are times when you can get your entire wardrobe renamed.

This is just one example that comes to mind of an interaction that is part of the unwritten rule that players in other areas really shouldn't expect these things, even though to an extent it relates to another unwritten rule, the degree to which the items you wear "match" in terms of color and content is seen as an example of your roleplay. People are looked upon poorly if their items don't match to some theme, though this is something I for one have never experienced in D&D on tabletop, as DMs would generally tailor equipment to look like it was suited to your character before you even found it, or simply didn't mention it at all. When buying a suit of chainmail in a store, I can't ever remember asking what color it was, it was chainmail, it stopped you from being killed.

There are dozens of other unwritten rules or expectations that I and I'm sure others could probably come up with that people expect you to follow at times, and it might be useful to have a whole thread where people outline the expectations they've come to understand as applying to them but have never seen nor heard of until they transgressed. One more example I'll mention which I think is good for everyone to know is that at one point, Zarafae was searching for one object with a locate object spell and ended up seeing another interesting item on a mob she'd never seen before, and ended up stumbling upon the area that we now know is Torstulstok. She was able to magic mirror the mob, hence knowing the room was not astrally-protected and she could gate to the area. She went to her allies and outlined the idea of preparing a party to go to this unexplored place and see what could be found there, something she has done often when coming across new areas she's never seen, as almost everything Zarafae sees as new is also new to me, the player.

I was then yelled at for apparently trying to sneak into an unopened area that wasn't connected to the grid. Not only is there literally no way for someone to know what areas are or are not connected to the grid or in any other way are not meant for general exploration, but also I was told by some people that you can not use teleportation spells like gate to go places you've never been. This information is assuredly not in the rules for the spell, nor was it ever mentioned to me in passing. Having never had a teleportation spell, there was literally no way for me to know this unless told, but only when I was apparently preparing to break the rules by exploring an area I wasn't supposed to be able to go by a means which was in itself a violation of the rules was I told, and it only further exacerbated a situation wherein I am seen to be someone who takes advantage of spells. Even if something seems like common knowledge to some people, it is in fact an unwritten rule that people may simply not have heard of or experienced until they happen to break it, and the more unwritten rules you break, the worse of a reputation you gain.

I should also mention as an example of admin-closedmouthedness, I didn't even find out from the admins themselves that this was how they looked upon me for my actions, but heard through someone else. The opinion of me as someone who was breaking or circumventing the rules and trying to sneak into an off-the-grid area was never brought up with me, never discussed, merely chalked down as something wrong I had done.

3) Admins interact with certain players often and positively in both IC and OOC manners, while other players experience tend to experience only negative interaction in terms of being 'judged'

I rarely speak to admins. I can't remember the last time I had a friendly chat with one, despite the statement that we're all supposed to be friends here. Some players have access to a chat line where they can speak with admins about what is going on in the game, comment about it, talk about whatever suits them even if technically it is supposed to be entirely about the game. What can this encourage other than a mentality where certain players know the admins well, can relate to them, can understand their reasoning and see that they're people just like them, and another group to whom the administration is as Dalvyn seems to want it to be, a monolithic bloc who should not even be distinguishable from one another except as an authority to pass down judgment? Dissent from the admin's opinion is not to be discussed at the time like intelligent people, they're to be emailed to complaints where there may or may not be a response or even an acknowledgment that it was even made.

If I was roleplaying in a tabletop game and I had a serious question or complaint about an action taken by the DM, and their response was to write my complaint down on a piece of paper and put in in the mail and they'd consider it and then ignore anything else I said, I certainly wouldn't consider this a friendly interaction between two people who respect each other, especially if I didn't even know who the DM was!

When interaction like this takes place, where certain players are the friends of the admins, either by becoming a part of the chat group, the newbie council, etc... while others only interact with the admins in their anonymous fashion as those who judge their RP (with repercussions usually far more serious for what is judged to be poor RP than for positive RP. If you do something to make your deity upset you might be turned into a goblin. If you do something to make your deity happy you're never turned into a celestial, you get a glory or a kismet reward). I suppose that it's far easier to see poor RP and punish it than to reward good RP in a meaningful fashion. Another thing that might be looked at.

4) Admins judge players based on standards they themselves did not follow or were not even expected to follow when they were players, nor are people they are friendly with held to the same standards of behavior

This is something I feel needs to be said. Admins criticize players for their behavior a great deal. But a lot more is expected of a player nowadays than it was, for the most part, when they were mere players. Most of the admins have been here for a long time, far longer than me. In the old days there could be no such thing as 'stat twinking' because it would be rare for anyone who put a little effort into their characters to have a stat below 16 in the first place. A new system will (I very much hope) one day be put into place that allows people to distribute skill points to skills that won't be based on time spent killing mobs (something I myself find completely tedious) but instead on roleplay, time spent active online, etc.

This isn't intended as a confrontation or an insult in some way, but for those of you who poorly judge current characters, take a good look at your own main, oldest characters. Look at their own skills, trades, stats. Older players are almost entirely the ones who tend to have GMed skills, GMed spells, stats that go far beyond the bounds of what their race should have available.

I just think that in the end it's very easy to say that players are not as good now, or to look back on the past with rose-tinted glasses for those who tend to do so. I feel as though I'm looked upon as a power-player even though Zarafae does not have a single skill, weapon or spell above expert, with the average being merely apprentice.

I suppose to an extent I just grow tired of the constant attempts to make training, money, skills, whatever be more realistic or to see people criticized by those who have assuredly done the same things when the standards were different. This will assuredly be seen as confrontational but this is again, a common feeling amongst many players, that the same people who may criticize their behavior on the game have no legs to stand on when it comes to adhering to the same behavior, in effect, "Who Watches the Watchers?" and the desire for some open admin standard of judgment and behavior as Selveem put out originally. It all goes to promote a feeling as though people are being unjustly treated, after all, how can it be fair to say to someone they can not do something when one used to do it oneself?

5) Players have problems but they're the same problems players will always have everywhere

Players have problems. We don't want harm to come to our characters. We want everything to be good for us and very rarely for things to happen to us we don't like, especially unexpected things. Some players can be spoiled. Some players can be obtuse. Some players are stupid, IC'ly and OOC'ly. Some are immature. Some just don't get a game like this and never will. This will never change. But the way in which admins deal with players can change. What it mostly comes down to is communication. Tell people the reasons why you do things. Treat them like people who deserve some respect, not like a member of a faceless bureaucracy who is only there to mete out judgment. Raona states that in effect, people who don't like it here should go somewhere else. She is saying everything I'm sure people want to hear. But as she also says, "if they've ever done me wrong, I haven't realized it". IMMs do a great job, no changes necessary, all we need to do is respect and trust the IMMs.

But just wanting to do a great job doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement, and I think that the biggest way it could be improved is by setting out clearly what all the rules are, even unwritten rules and expectations, being less afraid to sit down with a player and explain to them, clearly and concisely what they are doing wrong in the opinion of the admin and being open to having a frank discussion right there where they listen to the opinion of the player. If an admin thinks Selveem for instance is being a bad Tempurian, act like a DM and sit down with them, show them where you think the books suggest they're being bad, bring up examples in their RP in which they were doing this, then ask for an explanation. This is something I've never experienced here as someone who I'm quite certain has been criticized behind the scenes for my actions. If you want to improve people's roleplay or actions, then speak openly to them like human beings, don't just sit in anonymity and cast judgments because people who disagree with those judgments who might have no idea as to the thought process that went into creating them will inevitably resent them.

EDIT - I'd like to point out that criticism of the administration is very easy because they're the ones with the power and hence, the ones fit for criticism. I do not believe players are some group that is oppressed or treated poorly by the admins, I merely feel that the interaction between various groups is skewed towards certain types and that the best that certain players and types can expect is to be, in general, ignored. The admins here *have* put together the best game I've ever played and I only voice my opinions because I am very serious about how much I like it. I think that this could be helped by improvements in communication as I've stated, especially one-on-one active criticism of the way that people play their characters or act OOC'ly, but the same kind of constructive criticism that you'd like us to give regarding the game, we would appreciate from the admins to improve ourselves and not to have what seems to us, to be curveballs thrown

[Lukon]

Regarding your point about anti-evil Imm persecution...

Evils should eventually lose.

That's all I really have to say. A setting where evil wins, or is expected to win as the end result, gets bleak, dreary, and unfun to play in unless you're evil or so min-maxed that you need fear no reprisals or persecution.

The key of any PvP interaction is to understand that there's give and take. Sometimes you have to let the goodies off with a warning, or even stumble and let them win. But if their only focus is "Aha, an evil, I will kill it without consideration of circumstances!" then they're not heroic and deserve to be butchered by the evils. As do any goods who don't put thought and effort into their valiant attempts.

I see playing an evil as an RP opportunity to create conflict, but to also allow for positive conflict resolution. Y'win some, y'lose some, but the idea of an evil isn't to WIN, from a player standpoint...it's to make them EARN it.

That's my only two cents

[Ceara]

That was well thought out and said Solaghar.

There are only two things I can think of well maybe three that really upset me that I think should be changed. Two are linked.

The first is everyone being punished for what one person does. I recall one of the times I tried to come back to FK after the new code was in, my favorite class at the time was a wizard so I decided to make a new wizard to relearn the game after all the changes were made.
I spent time roleplaying, getting to level ten and went to the school of wonder to become guilded, only to find the teachers always sleeping and that I wasn't able to join. Then I come to find out from other players that the school was shut down because one person did something wrong. A couple weeks go by and I get frustrated and leave. I come back a month later, I still can't join the guild, I leave again. Another month goes by and I ask players if it's open yet, nope, so I don't bother.

I have seen many area's shut down for extremely long periods of time for what one or two people do. I think this is completely unfair and wrong. I always have thought this. I think that the persons doing wrong should be punished and let others continue playing. What if I had been brand new to FK? Chances are the person would leave and never return.

The other thing is again communication, which Solaghar's post spurred for me, there have been times where I've been chastized by an imm and then they just walk away, I ask who it was so I can talk to them and am told to email complaints. Frankly I don't function well that way, I like to talk to the person real time because chances are it is a misunderstanding, or so I can ask why and get an answer to that question so I can improve and not make the same mistake, or explain myself and my reasoning.
I have only sent in a complaint once to the email and I had to enquire and actually requested to know what was done about it, and I still don't know what if anything was done, in this instance it was actually about players.
The only reason I did send it was because the imm stuck around long enough to hear the whole story, then suggested I send in a log because others were painting a very different story.

I respect those who treat me with respect, if someone disrespects me they can expect the same in return. If an Immortal even though they do not have to give me their name when they are talking to me, refuses to do so I take offense, it's common courtesy, they know who I am, why can't I know who I am talking to? I find this very condescending.

I've actually had this arguement with an immortal and they did tell me who they were and now we get along well, and if this person approaches me there is never any problem because they tell me what the problem is and why, they've taken the time to get to know how I react to things. I don't appreciate a condescending manner. I do not intentionally break rules, attempt to cheat, nor am I on a power trip. I am here to rp and have fun and I am pretty anal and critical of my own rp. I appreciate suggestions from immortals and sometimes I learn something I didn't know and will incorporate that.

I really hate when I ask a question on ask and am told only to email such and such. If I wanted to email I would email, I ask because I want to know, it might be important to know then and there. I try not to use the ask channel, or there are times I have asked if a specific person is up there and to send me a tell because I know they deal with certain things or know certain races or classes and want to talk to them specifically about it. Then I'm sometimes rudely asked by a council member what I want them for and to email builders or some other email.
There are some upon the council that because of their responses to me, I won't even send an ask while they are online, because I know I will only be met with non answers and rudeness.

So as far as things I would like to see changed, they would be first, better communication and respect; and secondly to punish only those who do something wrong rather than the entire player base.

I realize this isn't in a new thread but I'm not really sure how or where to do that.

[Japcil]

I really hate when I ask a question on ask and am told only to email such and such. If I wanted to email I would email, I ask because I want to know, it might be important to know then and there. I try not to use the ask channel, or there are times I have asked if a specific person is up there and to send me a tell because I know they deal with certain things or know certain races or classes and want to talk to them specifically about it. Then I'm sometimes rudely asked by a council member what I want them for and to email builders or some other email.
There are some upon the council that because of their responses to me, I won't even send an ask while they are online, because I know I will only be met with non answers and rudeness.

So as far as things I would like to see changed, they would be first, better communication and respect; and secondly to punish only those who do something wrong rather than the entire player base.

I am sorry you have had such problems with the player council. I wish to comment on a few of your points though.

I understand not wanting to email someone about a problem but if you want better communication, thats one way of communication that gets things worked out, emails are there because we can not all log at the same time to work on a problem. Now If a player asks and explains a problem with an area I ask them to email the fkbuilders address, if they are hesitant and dont wish to that is not a problem , all they have to say is, could you do it for me, and I gladly will. Dalvyn knows I have no problem sending bugs his way.

As far as not asking questions because certain players online, I, find that disrespectful actually. I applied for the player council because I was interested in helping my fellow players. Now you might not be aware and it was mentioned a few posts higher but higher level members and imm's see other's responses on the ask channel, If you are treated unfairly or rudely, there is a good chance someone else saw it and possibly said something to that player. I would hope that my time sitting online, sometimes the only member on, just to be there to answer any questions another player may have is not waste of my time.

[Ceara]

Japcil I actually applied for the newbie council lite, for the same reason to help others and was accepted but never added. When I asked about it I was told to talk to the one who accepted me, I did and she said an imm has to do it so I went back to the imms and they said no she has to say something on ask so I gave up, it went around and around in circles. I Just help people when I come across them or try to.

As for others seeing the responses, if they did I don't know anything was done about it. I assume they didn't see it. I do still use ask if I really need to, the last time I was treated rudely by someone I let them know exactly how I felt about it.

[Neriadin]

This is in response to Lukon's post above.

There's one problem with the idea that evil is expected to eventually lose. The problem is that it is not expected to happen in the lifetime of any mortal. Evil will destroy all that is good before it turns its attention upon itself and destroys all that is evil. Then evil will have lost. Unfortunately, good will have lost long before that.

Take a look around and think about it, ok?

In the end, everything will be truly balanced because there will be nothing left.

[Selveem]

Lukon,

I sincerely hope your post was a joke or at least some form of mild humor. Evil does _not_ always lose. If that were the case, there would not be evil GODS. Evils do not get poweful by losing - they get there the same way goodies do. Further, the essence of what is evil is not as clearly defined always as 'I just want to hurt people.' If you would take the time and have the money, please read The Book of Vile Darkness; it may even be in your local library. There are many types of evils - some are just lackeys who don't even mean to, but evil is the consequence of something they are involved in (IE: a drug-addicted 'villian' kills a child he sees dashing off to buy groceries because he needs the money for his addiction).

That being said, I am very pleased with the progress of this discussion. And, while there are many tangents that have been created because of different circumstances, I believe that it has been made clear by several people (and even more who, for their own reasons, have not spoken up) that there is a problem with communication and understanding of what it is that is expected of us as players so that we are not seen as problem players.

One thing that does bother me has recently been brought up, as well - I did not wish to be the first to bring it up and have resisted posting, but now that it has, I would also like to comment on the 'complaints' email.

Recently, Selveem was involved in an RP that dramatically "changed" who he is. And, while I found a loophole in the RP to avoid the nature of what he has become (as the MUD rules themself would actually not even allow me to RP him properly otherwise), I still have heard no resolution from the complaint I sent in for the reason why he was turned into it.

Now, first off I understand that Immortals and mortals ideas of what is proper roleplay and what is expected often differ, but I still believe I was right in that particular situation I sent in a complaint regarding. I am still waiting and it has been well over a month after sending in the original complaint. After a few weeks, I questioned why I still had not received a response. An immortal explained to me that for whatever reason, it had not been received (it was when the new emails were _just_ set up). So, I sent it again. That particular immortal told me to send it directly to them and that they would pass along the email. I did so. After a couple of days (literally two), I sent an email to that particular Immortal and explained that I still had not received a response and was just curious of progress. I explained that I know everyone is busy. The Immortal was confused as to who I was and what email I was referring to - no big deal, people are busy and have lives offline. I sent an email explaining who I was and what I was referring to. I attached both the original 'complaint' as well as an RP log that I felt was exceptional after the transformation. After this, I heard no further response. I sent in another one a full month ant two days after that original that was first sent to the Immortal directly and still have heard nothing to this day.

The original I sent was on April 28th, 2007. The followup was April 30th, 2007. The last one I sent was on May 30th, 2007.

Again, I understand that people are busy, but a simple email just informing that it's still being reviewed would be nice - or, even that they don't know right now and will check up. This contact could also have been done in-game, as well. I don't blame the particular Immortal and hold no grudge. This is only an actual example of why people get annoyed and feel like sending an email to complaints is a waste of time or feel that those emails are ignored.

After Dalvyn's post, it appears that the Immortals did still come to the conclusion that the particular events were IC for Selveem's God and I will simply accept that and continue to disagree OOCly, but I still have heard no resolution on how to correct his situation, no reply from complaints, and no response to my request to change Selveem's alignment to fit the God's apparent "in game" alignment.

[Mele]

Many players have been added without my being physically being online, as I keep track of this in a thread viewable by all members of the Player council immortals never need an okay from me to add, they can just check there. (And well, they're immortals. Their yes' or no's trump mine) What I have heard is that it was said the council is being reorganized at the moment, and when spots freed up people would be added.


There is something I'd like to make very clear about the ASK channel. This channel was not set up for immortal contact. While of course, sometimes when you send something into the emails, immortals may ask you to hit ask up to get their attention, the goal of ASK is not for immortals to chat. The entire reason the Player Council exists is to ease some of the smaller work from the immortal staff. Simple questions, that involve no coding and no major decisions. Things players of all ages and sizes ask just off the fly.

While that is the case, of course the occasional question for an immortal is perfectly acceptable. Occasional. There are some players who use the ASK channel and ONLY use it to ask for immortals. What's more frustrating then that is questions that come in like this.

Mele questions 'If an imm is on can I talk to them?'

I'm not going to lie here. Nine times out of ten, when someone does this either A: They do not truely need an immortal. Or B: They're going to respond huffily when you tell them they must email because no immortals are available. If you ask with detail, you'll probably still be sent to the emails, but you're likely to get a quicker and more pleasant responce.

If you know that you're questioning something that will likely have you sent to emails, then expect to be told to email. Members of the player council don't have the ability to look into your alignment, your stats, something you think is a bug on your character.

What truely disheartens me over the ask channels is players who act as if they have the right to speak with an immortal, and sending them to emails is a great injustice. Players who call immortals by their first names and act all buddy buddy with them. The player council doesn't care who you're pals with off the game, we don't care that you know their names. We do care that you don't think we are valid enough to answer your questions, because most times it's something I could have answered in my sleep. There is nothing worse then a player needing to hear something directly from an immortal when a Player Council member could have told them no worse than the immortal did. These players devote their time and enegry to help out and deserve respect for what goes with that.

So please, if you are questioning for immortals, know and understand why, you will likely be sent to emails, or asked to question again later for them.

Thank you.

(This is not a direct to anyone/thing. This is a "while this came up" thing.)

[Lathlain]

I only wish to comment on the current matter regarding evils here, and in no way wish to detract from the current flow of the thread.

It is not likely to be a great surprise to learn that I value and find preference in 'evil roleplay' for the most part. With reference to the comments about evils winning and losing, Selveem and Lukon present a very black and white picture of it all.

Evils should not always lose, but neither should they always win. There must be a balance, though evil must know its place and not make the game unplayable for the rest. If evil always lost, the rest of you wouldn't try! I appreciate and agree that if evil were always expected to win then the setting would be far more grim, and perhaps less enjoyable for it - I won't condone an 'evil will ultimately lose, but everyone will die along the way' attitude either, because that's just depressing, and not a lot of fun for everyone.

For the most part, we're here to act out an elaborate melodrama with elements of comedy and tragedy. Happy endings do exist, but you have to work for them

[Lukon]

Lathlain said what I meant to say. I DO believe that for a fantasy story to be enjoyable, good has to ULTIMATELY win. If I want evil to win, I'll turn off my gaming experience and turn on CNN. Evil can make huge strides in fantasy, and usually SEEMS to win, or be winning at every turn. But evil is a destructive force, and if evil has a 51% share in events, eventually it all crumbles down.

I'm not saying that evil PCs should lay down and be beaten. I'm just saying that they should be aware that in a good-evil-neutral setting, evil tends to make large strides, but good usually gets the last words. Even the evil gods tend to lose the 'big picture fight'...though they tend to get something of value out of the exchange, sometimes of more value than the prize they were 'supposed' to be after. A great example of how evil in a fantasy setting like FR works is Bane. Bane had a BIG plan for the Time of Troubles. Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal all failed.

And yet they each had schemes and plans for a return, perhaps more powerful than they left. Bane, when he returns in FR, is still a greater power, and aside from some portfolio issues and a new best enemy, is largely the same old Bane.

In short. Evil can and should win battles, enough battles to make the universe a desperate place. But it's real temporary fun when evil wins the 'war'.

[Lerytha]

I think I understand most of the points raised here. However, I would like to point out that making a link between the "six/seven friends gathered around for D&D at a table" is actually a far cry from sometimes 27 players in several different countries, of different timezones, of different faiths, sex, etc.

Why have I made this point? Well, I think its something that needs to be borne in mind. I think everyone on this MUD wants us to be friendly, wants us to be open and such like. I personally have seen a major difference, with the imms. Certain blanket bans have been lifted; debates are encouraged (there was a time when this thread might have been deleted and the player reprimanded); IMM-run roleplay has increased; players have become more involved... there are many, many new positives.

I'm glad people want to keep pushing for more change - change is good! - and I'm not sure what I think about most of the comments raised. Most make a good point, but then the truth of the matter is that an imm, when he (or she) logs on, has to deal with (I suspect):

- a faith
- emails that fall into their area of responsibility
- questions online
- RP online
- newbies
- (and probably more)

Now, this is not meant to be the usual "the poor imms have a lot to do so leave off" post. I can't stand that. Because I think imms are chosen, if they can cope with these kind of responsibilities.

I personally don't think this MUD can ever be the same as a gaming group. I've mentioned it above, but how can any imm (even if there are four online) deal with 27 people, of different levels, alignments, etc IC and different timezones etc OOC? But does this mean that we can't have openness and friendships on this MUD? Nope. I've made some wonderful friends online, here, and I hope to make others.

One other thing I want to mention: often, these issues could be resolved with discussion and clarity. Now, that is difficult online, when imms are dealing with many different people - they don't (I imagine) have time to spend ages explaining and discussing, although I have seen them do so sometimes, on a less busy day.

People have an aversion to emails - naturally, because if you send one it might not be read for a while - but discussing through emails can help avoid confusion that often occurs online. I think personally most problems online come through crossed wires, confusions, misunderstood statements, and such like. Imms get things wrong sometimes, players sometimes get a bit ahead of themselves, sometimes the imm sends a message with bad grammar which leads to confusion, sometimes they only have time to send a quick help-file warning... sometimes, sometimes, sometimes. The reason for me trying to paint a picture of the chaos that is surely present when so many people are online, is to say that emails are often the best way to approach things. Emails do get read, sometimes a few weeks after they are sent, but they do get read.

What am I now saying then? (Sorry, this is as much a flow of consciousness as a planned thing) - maybe, instead of rules, there could be a re-organising so the time of the imms is utilised to its best ability. And some good news, there! The organisation is underway! We've got a larger player council with questions being answered; we have a builder council, a coder council...

Keep asking questions! But remember, things are being changed as we speak - and remember, its never as simple as it seems on the surface!

~Ol

(no comments intended to offend; my comments are not based on any person or imm in particular, more on interpretation of events; an imm may contradict everything I say in which case I stand humbly corrected)

[Selveem]

I understand that there is a general consensus that Immortals and Mortals should be two seperate groups. Friendships should generally be rejected due to fairness issues. But, honestly, I don't see why that is believed to be best approach.

Surely, some are concerned about favoritism and envious of different Immortals possibly having greater friendships with other players. Personally, I like a close-knit community where communication is priority.

I have been involved with a D&D campaign where I was a complete stranger to my ex-Girlfriend's family. Her brother was DMing. She has four other siblings. He was DMing for seven people, basically. I saw no favoritism despite that he was obviously closer to his siblings opposed to some outsider who was dating his sister.

I liked that, but I did like that I could approach him at any time to explain my intentions. Actually, when he did not understand why I did something, he requested a quick break to discuss this with me to better understand my character.

Favoritism exists - it aways will. We are all human. Just as surely as we enjoy RPing with some people more than others, the same will be for Immortals. It needn't be a bad thing as long as those same Immortals are making an real effort to tend to all of those other players as well. But, that is what I feel and only slightly is related to my original thoughts on conduct.

Personally, I agree with Solaghar that surely Immortals have the best intentions in mind when they perform some of the actions they do - even when they turn your character into a blood-hungry monster that is by nature not allied with your character's original doctrine. However, this can feel like an extreme punishment with little or no reason for why and no possible chance to sway the Immortal's decision real-time (that actually may make the Immortal's decision changed - can be RPed out on the spot). If more communication were present, it would be less likely that bad feelings would seed and lead to a better all-around game.

As it stands, this is my favorite MUD since starting to play back in 1996. That's over 10 years of MUD experience and this being my favorite. BIG pat on the back to all responsible for this - old and new - players and Imms alike. What I love about this MUD is it continues to evolve. New channels of communication are being created every day. Opinions are being encouraged. Ideas are being implemented at an amazing rate. Area fixes are at an all-time quick response rate.

But, there are things like communication that cannot be ignored. We are now ranked 38 at MUDconnect. That's AMAZING. But just because we are destined to get an influx of new players doesn't mean that we can shove the current ones on the backburner. The Immortals will be relying on us just as much to be able to assist those new players and make them feel comfortable; to develop friendships and make this the place that keeps them interested and hungry for more.

[Kelemvor]

At some point soon, I hope to have the time necessary to assess and respond to a number of the issues raised in this thread. Right now, I will have to limit myself to answering those questions around the administration of complaints e-mails.

Under the original system which existed prior to the change of hosts, there were five Immortals who received those e-mails and who were charged with responding to them.

Unfortunately, there were periods during the use of that system when many of those Immortals were not available or were unable to devote time to the game. There may well have been long periods when only a single Imm or pair of Imms was responsible for responding to and actioning every complaint received.

At the same time, there were occasional difficulties with the list set-up which resulted in e-mails not being sent out to all of the Immortals subscribing to it. If the e-mails missed out the only Imms who were actually able to respond, well you can see how that would have affected players who were e-mailing expecting an answer.

I hope that those players who were inconvenienced can appreciate that any unanswered e-mails were not the result of any deliberate act, but may have resulted from the problems noted above.

The new system which we introduced after switching from the old server and after using a very temporary gmail set-up to cover the period in between.

The new FKcomplaints e-mail address operates as a list in a similar manner to the old system. That is, a number of Immortals are subscribed to the list and receive a copy of any e-mail sent to that list.

The system went live in early April and there were a few teething problems to begin with - setting up Admin staff, adding subscribers etc. However, all e-mails received since mid April have been actioned by myself and/or Lathander.

In your specific case Selveem
I would say...

If your original complaint was sent to the old complaints address it would unfortunately not have been seen by us. (As we lost access to this when Forgottenkingdoms.com ceased to be the games domain name)

The response which you sent to the new FKcomplaints address was dated Wed Apr 11 00:35:30 IST 2007 and I replied to it on Sun Apr 15 21:46:17 IST 2007 requesting it be re-sent in plain text as the complaints list had scrubbed the e-mail because of the attachment Tempus.Txt. (I am happy to resend this to you if you require it)

No further correspondence has been received at the FKcomplaints address and when this was queried with Lathander I repeated what I had sent in my e-mail of the 15th and asked him to ask you to re-send. (I have archived lists for April and May and no e-mail from your address save that received on the 11th)

Feel free to send again or PM it directly to me and I will be happy to address your concerns.

Finally

Being frank here, since we're all wanting open discussion and communication...
I've helped with the administration of complaints e-mails for two years without any significant break or lapse on my part, saving that which was thrown my way by technology

I have something like 400+ complaint e-mails stored, though that may nto be all of them. That's easily one complaint every other day.
I've dealt with awkward complaints (about my fellow Imms and about the volunteers on the Player Council), I've dealt with stupid complaints (about things as trivial as perceived bad spelling), I've dealt with upsetting complaints (where players have literally been traumatised by the behaviour of other players) I've objectively answered requests from difficult players, emotional players, rude players, arrogant players, players so immature that I'd be surprised to discover that they could manage to dress themselves of a morning...

I guess what I'm trying to say to those who may not have received the kind of service to which they feel they are entitled...

And I'm not exactly sure what that is really, since neither I, nor the other Immortals nor the volunteers on the Player Council get paid to deal with some of the abuse levelled at us.

... sorry, but we do our best.

Any player who feels that a complaint of their's has been ignored, lost or insufficiently answered should PM me right now and I will tackle each and every one regardless of how long ago the incident occurred.

Kelemvor


footnote : Oh and the next player who posts about how long they've played here, how things used to be, how many places they've been an Immortal, or anything else that has no bearing on the discussion... so help me, I'll drop a tombstone on them.
Have faith in your convictions and writing abilities to convey your argument, not who or what you are.

[Selveem]

In your specific case Selveem
I would say...

Then I must admit I am genuinely confused. And, if that is the case I apologize for assuming. Perhaps the problem is I am simply much more vain than I believe myself to be:

Actually, what this means is that, if player X finds that imm Y plays deity Y in a wrong way (rewards/punishes at inappropriate moments), they are welcome to send in their point of view and explain why they thing it's wrong. That might generate a debate with the players and the imms and/or amongst the imms, but the final decision in this case is always up to the imm.

That's quite similar to how the DM would determine how the gods react to your character's actions in a table-top game. If you, as a player, think that the gods would not react like that, you can share you opinion with the DM and talk it out (you might make the DM change his mind or not) but, in the end, "the DM is always right".

That being said, I have only seen one instance of something like that, and that instance - in my opinion - comes from differences of interpretation about some parts of a deity's ethos. It was put to the debate amongst the imms, after a player said he disagreed, and the imms collectively decided which interpretation was to be used on FK.

So, basically, as far as the imms are concerned, there is no difference between official FR lore and FK, as far as the gods are concerned. We stick to the information written in the various source books. The only issue - the one that I mention above - is a question of interpretation and, from our point of view, we follow the official lore.

I thought this was actually referring to me as the reknown "player X" but apparently not if my "complaint" (again, I think the name is unfitting.. ) has still not yet been heard. I also apologize again for assuming that this was posted regarding the RP I was involved in - that it was posted on the forums before I even was informed. Unfortunately, it appears that I never received your email. I will PM you my request.

I'm not looking to place blame, anyhow, just advise on how to how to make things better and attract more players. I still encourage anyone to bring up any suggestions for the game I hear because it is not just they that benefit, but us all.

[Dalvyn]

1) Game is designed towards doing exactly the things admins don't want players to do

... Money has been made much more difficult to obtain compared to the past. It's not desired that every mob drop coins perhaps, or that too much can be sold in one town. But by making these changes so that money becomes more rare, all you do is force the people who need it to go to the few places they still can make money. This is mostly a problem for younger players and for people who don't know everywhere you can go in the game to get things, so therefore it's a problem that disproportionately affects new players, young players.

Money-gathering from mobs was made harder in areas where mobs shouldn't drop coins, or shouldn't have dropped that many coins in the first place. It was also changed in areas that were "too good" in comparison with other areas, and thus were constantly and unICly raided by people "in the know".

That being said, those modifications were also accompanied by the introduction of several alternative money-making options. The whole Express Deliveries quest, for example - which actually targets those new players you mention as especially affected by the changes. Then there is also the merchants' guild and the trading posts, where clever traders can make a constant income. Add to that publications (which are paid). Add in bandit lairs and their hidden treasury chests (which load randomly, so that people can't just raid the area again and again). And I'm still open to any other ideas regarding this.

The modifications have been aimed not towards making it harder to get money, but to make it harder/impossible to get money by constantly raiding areas over and over. That's why some areas were changed and that is why alternative solutions have been added. We saw players camping areas as a problem (many players did that in Hartsvale, and some area still doing it in Shadowlands) and we thus modified the areas to make this undesirable behaviour less rewarding.

I am fine with saying that a better solution would be a system where the more you kill the same mob/in the same area, the less you get out of it (in both xp and loot); but that requires much heavier coding than what is possible with area code.

... Armor or weapons that a person might be wearing magically evaporates without explanation the moment they die, despite what may occur in real D&D, where if you do kill someone, their things don't just turn to dust. While I understand you don't want too many people selling too many things, it's quite simple to set a worth on an object via the code...

That wouldn't be a working solution either. There are several areas where mobs drop everything they have. And those areas are generally littered with those items after a few hours. People just leave the items there on the ground and do not bother to go sell them. The same would happen if the cost on more expensive items was reduced.

2) Unwritten rules characterize a great deal of player/admin interaction and the way people are judged

... To a lesser extent, this same attitude is carried over towards many evils in general...

This is totally untrue, from where I stand. I have encouraged evil to work and build what they need. That's how a fighter's guild was added to ZK, then how a bard guild and a quest to own a griffon was added there too. I have stated repeatedly that I would welcome anyone who would invest IC roleplay and OOC time into building other guilds. I have also added a component warehouse in ZK to balance off the warehouse in Silverymoon, at Ceara's request. The whole Zhentarim paying system has been fixed too.

While it is true that I consider that building for the surface is a better investment than building underground, I do not remember ever extending this to the evil.

Dalvyn has also stated that this game is focused on good and neutral players, obviously the easiest to build a game towards and the most likely to work together.

I would be glad if you could remind me where this comes from, for I do not remember stating anything like that. Or even thinking it. While it is true that I always have a small talk with any new builder who intends to builds for the underdark, to try and convince them to do something "more useful" on the surface, I have never tried to steer someone away from building evil areas. It's actually the contrary: I have tried to incite people to come up with areas they would like added to the evil side of the surface.

Waterdeep is the focus of RP. If you're not someone who spends time there, don't expect to get the same sort of interaction.

It's actually like the chicken and the egg. Waterdeep is the focus of many roleplays because that's where most people are. And most people are there because that is where newbies come (and I wouldn't want to see Waterdeep deserted for that very reason).

But when people gather in other places, it's not uncommon to see an imm visit them. Several small-scale roleplays have happened in ZK and in Westgate as well, though fewer than in Waterdeep, obviously. I would also like to remind people that imms are not the only possible source of roleplay. See what the orcs are doing and take example... there sure are even fewer roleplay in the orc camp than in Zhentil Keep, so they created their own roleplay, and built an area to support it. And they now have regular monthly events.

I know a large evil/neutral RP with the purple sphere is planned, and it's honestly the first one I can remember. I've never seen an admin-sponsored RP in the Underdark since I started playing here in 2003, nor one specifically offered to those in Zhentil Keep or Westgate or any other focal point of evil RP.

There were a few people sent down in Menzoberranzan, and a couple (maybe) of drow expeditions to the surface. As for evil-centered roleplays, I remember offering to open up Sasszrin's Dungeon for a group of evil characters. An evil character applied (sending in the list of a whole group of evil); he was online, so was I, but no other evil came at the set date and time.

Any admins reading this, ask how often you do renames in other cities (as opposed to general game-wide renames available to all). Spending more than 1500 hours in Menzoberranzan and Skullport on two characters, I've never seen one. But to see certain people who spend their time in Waterdeep, there are times when you can get your entire wardrobe renamed.

Last I checked, renames were not restricted to a city. I made a mud-wide renaming sessions a few weeks ago, and I jumped from character to character, no matter where they were.

People are looked upon poorly if their items don't match to some theme, ...

I have honestly never heard any comment about that from any imm.

... you can not use teleportation spells like gate to go places you've never been ...

Good point. This might need to be debated and perhaps added to the help file.

3) Admins interact with certain players often and positively in both IC and OOC manners, while other players experience tend to experience only negative interaction in terms of being 'judged'

I rarely speak to admins. I can't remember the last time I had a friendly chat with one, despite the statement that we're all supposed to be friends here.

I guess our little friendly chat about your next area to build (from last week? or the week before?) does not count. That is fine by me.

Some players have access to a chat line where they can speak with admins about what is going on in the game, comment about it, talk about whatever suits them even if technically it is supposed to be entirely about the game.

Correction: all players do have that. This is this forum, plus the various mail addresses.

I believe that this "chat" channel is a bit like most secrets. When you do not know what this is about, it looks like a tremendously big and important thing, where many things do happen. In truth though, this is nothing like that. Important information travels through mails and is discussed on the forum, not on this "chat" channel.

I used this "chat" channel several times yesterday. First, we talked about where volcanoes can be found in Faerun. Then we talked about what happens to metal when it is heated too much. We also chatted a bit about how to call the operation that consists in cleaning an animal skin by removing the attached bits of flesh and fat (and it's called "fleshing the skin"). Privileged communication channel indeed!

What can this encourage other than a mentality where certain players know the admins well, can relate to them, can understand their reasoning and see that they're people just like them, and another group to whom the administration is as Dalvyn seems to want it to be, a monolithic bloc who should not even be distinguishable from one another except as an authority to pass down judgment?

Anybody who wants to know something, or would like to understand the justifications behind a decision or a rule is free to ask on the forum or on a mailing list. I think that, during the last year or so, we have made efforts to be as transparent as possible about all "rules" and policies, and that we made it clear that nothing was set in stone and that everything can be brought up for discussion.

I am not sure why you seem so adamant on making me look like the big evil entity behind everything that would go wrong (or is it everything that would go against your wishes?) on the mud, but I'll try to explain my "monolithic bloc" conception then. I do not think that it is useful or even desirable to presents imms as individuals with different and sometimes opposed opinions about things. When a question is put to the vote and a decision is taken, all the imms present a unified front and apply that decision.

What would it serve to know who amongst the imms think this or that? The only way in which that could be used - and I guess that's what most of those who do not like this "block" idea are after -, would to be play the imms against each other. "Oh you are so level-headed, I looove you. Not like that bad imm over there. Hmm say, can you do me a favour?" It is simply the other side of the coin you labeled 'favouritism'. That's the best way to make the imm group break up and the game crumble. So, once a decision has been taken by the imms collectively, there's no need to distinguish the imms anymore.

As for having imms identify themselves when they talk to you, why would that be needed? Whatever an imm tells you, you can consider that it is said by all the imms. If you think that you have been wronged, then you can mail the imms and if we agree with you, then all the imms will apologize to you. If not, then we'll explain our point of view better.

Dissent from the admin's opinion is not to be discussed at the time like intelligent people, they're to be emailed to complaints where there may or may not be a response or even an acknowledgment that it was even made.

If I was roleplaying in a tabletop game and I had a serious question or complaint about an action taken by the DM, and their response was to write my complaint down on a piece of paper and put in in the mail and they'd consider it and then ignore anything else I said, I certainly wouldn't consider this a friendly interaction between two people who respect each other, especially if I didn't even know who the DM was!

There is a major difference between a table-top game and a mud that you fail to cite in your argument: a table-top game can pause at any time then resume when the debate is over. This is not possible for the mud. If someone does not agree with what is happening in a roleplay, or an echo they get, we can't pause the mud (or the whole roleplay) for an extensive discussion.

There's that, and there is also the fact that it's generally better to discuss things like that after some time has gone by, so everyone has had time to think the whole affair over. Sometimes, you can get really annoyed by something on the moment, then when you take some time to think over it, you put things in perspective and can sometimes see why things happened the way they did.

As for not getting answers, I can say that it is never intentional. If a complaint or application was not answered, you should simply re-send a mail after one week, and again and again till you get some news. Our current system is not perfect and some applications/complaints sometimes get forgotten, but we never intentionnally decide not to answer.

5) Players have problems but they're the same problems players will always have everywhere

Players have problems. We don't want harm to come to our characters. We want everything to be good for us and very rarely for things to happen to us we don't like, especially unexpected things. Some players can be spoiled. Some players can be obtuse. Some players are stupid, IC'ly and OOC'ly. Some are immature. Some just don't get a game like this and never will. This will never change. But the way in which admins deal with players can change. What it mostly comes down to is communication. Tell people the reasons why you do things. Treat them like people who deserve some respect, not like a member of a faceless bureaucracy who is only there to mete out judgment.

Before any IC consequence is meted out, we try to get our point across. Sometimes, it is directly (through echoes, as above - though this is not always clearly expressed or successfully understood I guess); at other times, it is ICly, through mobiles. But we never do a major IC change without (1) forewarning of some sort, and (2) explanation of some sort.