Reflections about stealing

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:41 pm

I have been wondering for a long time whether or not the option to steal from PCs and their pets is really worth having or not.

On the one hand, there have been very interesting roleplays generated by it, but that happens only with "mature" thief players, who steal things in order to generate roleplay out of it; that is, to offer to sell the stolen object back for money or a service. The "glittering gems" theft comes to mind when I think about this category.

But, for one "mature" thief, there are 50 thieves who just seek to get more money by any mean possible and who would steal items and sell them, without offering any chance for the character to get them back. Now, this is all fine when this is done to mobs, because mobs don't really have OOC feeling and haven't invested any time or effort in the game; but this is very different for PCs. Being robbed by a thief who only seek to sell the stolen items can leave a very sour taste in your mouth. You made efforts to gather those things, to get quest rewards and/or spent glory points to have items renamed, or maybe you were given those items as gifts.

Feel free to comment and discuss.

Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:54 pm

It's a question of trust really, i'd like to think people could be trusted to RP it out, but evidently you seem to think not..

Is the "steal" command logged currently?

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:07 pm

It is logged, yes... but, if there's no imm online when the theft happen, the action will most likely not be spotted (imms can't access the backlogs). Besides, it's a nightmare to try and "fix" such problems after the facts, since the various items might have been spread out throughout the world. Finally, if a bag is stolen, the log only says that a bag has been stolen; we have no way to know what was in the bag.

As for the matter of trust, well ... I can cite several events that fall in the category of "stealing then selling", but only one that falls in the first category of "stealing to generate roleplay". I base my opinion on what I have witnessed.

Stealing is similar to killing to some extent. For "killing", we have the following rules: you can kill any mob you want (and perhaps face the consequences), but you can't kill PCs or their pets without a valid IC reason (and there are several restrictions set on this case, that is, pkilling). Maybe stealing should be submitted to similar restrictions, I don't know.

Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:43 pm

I was under the impression that there was already these stringent rules in place for stealing, from the old IRC logs and such that were set up with Mask back in the day.

Perhaps something should be posted/stickied on the forums and then mentioned when someone creates a rogue.

The mechanics are already in place if someone feels they have been unjustly stolen from, they can report it and it'll go up the food chain to someone that can check the logs to see what happened...

If anything I just feel that new chars should know more about how stealing is handled on FK...

Horace · Post by **Horace** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:45 am

I'm generally against any mechanical action done against any PC to generate conflict without the consent of the second player. On the other hand, I think mature players can genuinely perform such actions and spur character milestones and overall increase the enjoyment from playing the game for all involved...but with that qualifier, one has to understand that both sides,the stealing side, and the victim side, have to be cool with the action - it only takes one side for it to get ugly.

I know I've posted this before, but I don't think on these forums. Roleplaying games are like soups. With a small gaming community, like a tabletop group, everyone can agree on what soup they want...when you start looking at large gaming communities (muds, mmorpg, larps) it's impossible for everyone to agree on the type of soup they want. So the only thing you can really do, is do your best to not ruin other people's soup. I like clam chowder - I hate beef stew. I can understand why people like beef stew, but I don't need your beef stew in my clam chowder...I'll dump it out.

I've offered this suggestion before, for PK's, but I think it'd work equally well for stealing. Putting the individual player in charge of controlling if another PC is allowed to steal from their PC...config +/-steal. I honestly believe enough PC's would keep it open for numerous reasons, that it wouldn't effect the thieves much at all. I think an option like this could allow for different player styles more than a blanket yes/no statement.

However, if a compromise option isn't something that is possible - I will always side with removing the window that allows PvP to cause the hurt feelings of a player. You can become a rival or generate competition with other PC's without forcing the mechanics of the game onto them. The game will evolve, from a role playing aspect, once that becomes the primary source of generating PC rivalries. Rivalries that pit ideologies/morals/ethics/personalities against each other, as opposed to game mechanics. Once the rivalry resorts to mechanics, it's very difficult to come away with a situation where both sides can be perceived to have been the victor...and for the rivalry to continue.

And that isn't good for roleplay.

Emrys · Post by **Emrys** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:35 am

Just my thought.

I'm all for stealing. It is an essential part of the rogue/thief class, and any D&D player should know its a possibility. Only new players need to be protected, I would think. Maybe characters below level 10, say, should be immune to pilfering attempts. Once you cross that level, all bets are off.

Characters with especially precious or unique items should protect them by wearing them, or keeping them warded (are there spells for that? there should be).

I don't know all the ins and outs of how stealing is handled now, since it hasn't been an issue with any of my characters. But I would imagine good cities would have strict laws that would result in banishment for repeat offenders, if not maiming.

Also, bags or packs should be stealable (allowed by the game rules, not just the code) unless you are wearing them.

Larethiel · Post by **Larethiel** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:36 pm

I think stealing is okay, as long as there is proper roleplay of the theft and the option to get your things back. I would really dislike having no opportunity to get back what was stolen, even if it weren't valuable things. Losing things that f. e. mean much for your character but have no value can hurt because they might just been thrown away.

I don't think it's okay to simply steal stuff without rp or to steal stuff from mounts that are sitting in appropriate places that are IC for their owners to put them into (f. e. ranger encampments). Concerning stealing from mounts, it might depend on the mount. You might be able to steal from a horse a few times but then a griffon or eagle might react annoyed if some people move around it and take things and bags and stuff the whole time. Also there's the question of mobs, if there are mobs in the same room that might spot a thief.

Last statement, as I am in a hurry but would like to say more but that's for later then

, stealing things, leaving the owner with no clue who took the stuff and not attempting rp to return it, out of whatever resons should, in my opinion, simply not done. But then I might be biased towards thieves at the moment

Thanks and hope I was understandable

Aveline · Post by **Aveline** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:27 pm

I've been stolen from twice that I know of. Once it was done really well and it was a lot of fun trying to get things back, it was even a sack that had more than one thing in it. There was ooc discussion and it was roleplayed out very well by the thief I thought. They didn't just kneel down drop the sack and let me come reclaim it either. I had to work and scheme back for it, gather friends. I am all for stealing, I think it can possibly generate very good roleplay. I think there should ALWAYS be an opportunity for the person who was stolen from to get their things back.

As far as bags go, I like the policy that you cannot steal bags from a pc. People say you should keep your things somewhere safe, but for some characters it really is not IC to have a horse or a cart. So bags on your person is the only place you can keep them. When realistically the person would be able to store their things at home or atleast in their innroom. Perhaps this new luggage place in Shadowdale will help that though..who knows.

I also got stolen from a few weeks ago and I think it was done very poorly. I had left my mount for only a moment to go get the correct coin to be able to stable it and when I came back everything off this mount had been stolen. Several bags and what not. When I left there was no one with the mount and when I came back there appeared to be no one with the mount. No one contacted me ICly or OOCly to offer to let me rp anything out. It was really frustrating, because I had to resort to using several locate object spells to find my things which were scattered all over game. I couldn't exactly tell the imms what all I was missing because some of those bags had been on the horse a while and who really remembers every little thing that is being stored. And it was stolen from a bard character and she had many songs..and paintings that took many many ooc hours to complete and would have been irreplaceable had the game crashed or something. I managed to recover everything through lots of IC ranting threatening and searching, but it was definitely not a fun time. Who ever it was just came stole everything and then just went and sold it off as fast as they could.

I would have handled that situation a lot better if the thief had rped it a little. I really do not mind just being robbed blind if there is opportunity to rp it and to get the things back. And people should be OOCly aware that there are going to be some things that people are attatched to OOCly as well as ICly. Like those paintings..wouldn't really mean much to anyone else..but I didn't have a backup of some of them on my computer yet..and it would have taken me a long time to redo them. Learned my lesson though and everything is done on computer first now

. If the person would have contacted me in some way I might have just given them an otell to please be careful with those or some such..would have made me feel much better.

I don't know if this came off as a rant, but it really was not meant as one. I've had a very good experience with thieving and a not so good one. I don't know if there is one, but perhaps a clear list of rules on stealing could be posted somewhere. I would hate for stealing to really be altered too much just because a select few cannot properly use the skill they were given. I think it is a great skill that adds a lot of interest to the game. Nothing like being bumped into in the market square and then going an hour or so later to treat a friend to a warm meal only to find you suddenly do not have enough coin to foot the bill. Alright..think I'm done now..

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:23 pm

Emrys wrote:I'm all for stealing. It is an essential part of the rogue/thief class, and any D&D player should know its a possibility. Only new players need to be protected, I would think. Maybe characters below level 10, say, should be immune to pilfering attempts. Once you cross that level, all bets are off.

Since 2nd edition, there has been a steady trend to disjoin the image of "thief" from the rogue. Starting in 2nd edition, you could assign more or less of your skills into each individual rogue skill. In 3.5 Edition they went as far as to change the name of the skill from Pick Pocket to Sleight of Hand, and broadened its usage for other acts of legerdemain, and again, you could chose to invest as much, or none of your skill total into that particular skill.

So, to say that stealing is integral to a rogue, is quite inaccurate. A rogue can be a jack of any, or many trades, and stealing not even among them.

That said, even to argue that stealing is integral to a rogue, does not mean we have to allow stealing from other PCs. In my opinion, P-Stealing is more often abused than done well. I have seen some very good ones, then I would say there are at least three or four bad steals for every one good one. So the only solutions are: 1) More imms to do enforcement of good p-steal behaviour, more often, or 2) Short of option 1, above, disable the ability to steal from players, or allow it on a consent basis (ala Horace's suggestion for a config option).

A thief can get plenty wealthy stealing from mobiles, and the arguments for the consequences of p-steal seem to abound. And while it would be nice to just say we trust the player base to play by the rules and play fair in this and every facet of the game, common sense teaches us you can't trust everyone.

Horace · Post by **Horace** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:30 pm

You could make my option even easier - and make a posted rule about having to get consent through an otell before the theft. I personally would welcome that...at least then there is contact to show some form of courtesy from player to player before the action.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:07 pm

To give you a little bit of background for my experience on this game, I will admit that I did some pretty horrible things as a player to other players regarding theft in this game (in the past).

I was involved in, on one character, a robbery of two houses where the contents were looted and when worried of being caught due to Immortal aid (which very much should have been the case) the items were sold to shopkeepers or given to other characters.

In retrospect, this was absolutely irresponsible and in all reality, I should have been completely banned from this game due to my actions.

At the time, I made my own excuse that 'my character would act this way now.' Due to my actions on that character, I don't play him anymore. I have no fun playing him. Realistically, I think I will just eventually delete him. He is a constant reminder of the pain and grief I caused at least two other players. Because of the actions I participated in, homes were made far more viscious to break into (AKA: I caused the staff their own time as well to deter further instances like that day).

I'm certain I have hurt those two players because I spoke to them afterwards and I know some of the joy I took away from their playing of the game. I did what I was able to make amends and bring joy back to their gaming. I made two different characters to spend more time and RP more with their characters.

Sure, this is an OOC action taken to make amends OOCly for something I did IC on another character - I don't care if it's frowned upon. I hurt myself far more than I hurt those two players affected and I haven't forgotten any of it. One of those two players I am still in contact with and speak to daily (in most cases). I still apologize occasionally for what I did. I know she doesn't care anymore, but I do.

The reason I am sharing this is because regardless of whether you loot an entire house or just a single bag, think of the consequences of your actions and how you may inadvertantly hurt the other player of the character. The fact of the matter is it will harm you more than them if you treat them unfairly.

Jaenoic · Post by **Jaenoic** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:30 am

In my years playing here, I'm trying to think of all the times I've been stolen from. And only one comes to mind, and it is a blaring example. Not only did someone steal from me but they killed my horse and took everything from it while I was in a quest area that had no place to stable the horse. Then they took all my belongings and sold them all across Waterdeep. An imm was sooo helpful in getting me some of my stuff back, but you know what? That down right made me angry, and frustrated, and not want to play for while. How could anyone be so inconsiderate as to not only steal from but kill someone else's mount too? I know the feelings of someone who's been wronged by an improper steal and quite frankly I think the mud is better without it. If it gives other players as much of a bad taste in their mouth as they give me, I don't feel that proper stealing RPs justify the existence of improper ones.

So in general, I believe that stealing from PCs and mounts should not be allowed. Or at the very least, I think Horace suggested a good idea with a config option. On a similar note, I also don't see the point of being able to kill someone else's mount. I think there should be in intercept on all pets that disallows other PCs from killing them. But that's just my overly conservative belief.

Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:08 am

What about in a PK situation? I was in a PK and someones horse/griffon was laying the smackdown on me i'd kill that first so as to maximise my dodge potential against the PC...

Not that I agree with killing pets, i'm just playing devils advocate..

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:24 pm

I'm not in a position to know whether abuse of this sort is carried out wantonly, or out of ignorance, but it would make a big difference in my eyes. Theft adds perceptibly to the realism of the game, as does loss of a mount; but you want them to be balanced with other considerations when they take place; in other words, to be fair. When I started out, I didn't know someone's mount from another creature, didn't know possessed or undead creatures could be followers (and thus warrant special consideration), etc.

Perhaps a plausible middle ground would be to cause the game to make very sure that someone doing these things knows the game policies on them, by causing it to echo something when they are done for the first (few) time(s).

For example:
STEAL BAG HORSE
would return a message like

You are attempting to steal something from the mount of another player. There are special rules and considerations that apply in a situation such as this, which it is important you be aware of. First...should only be engaged in as part of a roleplay, and with the intent of furthering roleplay. If you just want loot, focus your thievery on mobs. Second...these items should not simply be sold off for coin, or given away. The other player deserves a chance to get the items back...Are you certain you wish to steal from another player's mount?

Similarly,
KILL DOG
would trigger something like

You are about to attempt to kill the pet of another player. There are special rules that apply...blah explanation blah...Are you certain you wish to attack this creature?

I would also argue for the same with
MURDER GNOME
which is where the original idea sprang from (while I was in the boonies in Alaska!).

I'd like to believe that in 99% of the cases where these commands are abused, it is out of ignorance, and this would go a long way toward addressing that.

Note that by this suggestion, I'm volunteering to write these blurbs, or at least their rough drafts, if it is decided this is the way to go!

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:47 pm

Well, I had typed a lengthy detailed reply here then hit a side button on my mouse and ended up losing it all. I'm not really prepared to do it all again. Basically, I provided details about the most recent stealings and what happened in my conversation with the player responsible.

The point of it all, unfortunately, is to dash Raona's hope that 99% of the people who act this way do so because of ignorance. They are selfish people, pure and simple. Whether or not their fellow players enjoy the game is moot to them.

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:49 pm

Lathander wrote:Well, I had typed a lengthy detailed reply here then hit a side button on my mouse and ended up losing it all. I'm not really prepared to do it all again. Basically, I provided details about the most recent stealings and what happened in my conversation with the player responsible.

The point of it all, unfortunately, is to dash Raona's hope that 99% of the people who act this way do so because of ignorance. They are selfish people, pure and simple. Whether or not their fellow players enjoy the game is moot to them.

Bah...then they ruin it for the minority of well-rp'ed rogues out there! Can they be neutralized without so much collateral damage as disabling stealing from PC's? If not...well, Dalvyn's solution it is, then.

Maybe we just need more booby-traps one can place in with their things, for an ICly come-uppance for people such as this!

Alvirin · Post by **Alvirin** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:16 pm

Could be possible somehow make harder sell stolen items? Like only certain merchants be able to buy stolen items.

Grom · Post by **Grom** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:54 pm

I have played thieves in the past a many. As time here grew and I played more and more time on a thief it has come to be happy times and some bad. When i screwed up I was promptly punished and set straight. So I strived not to make those same errors. I myself do not steal from pc's pets. I rarely stole from pc's if I did it was always given back really. I'd hate to see it disabled towards pc's that would suck. I like how I see some they give a tell about them bumping in or doing some other action before stealing. Giving notice and chance for a chase and rp with that thief. I like that more and mroe pc's dont react to a hiddens person moving about right when they do steal to. I remember when someone made an action everyone was up their butt over it to.

In all I'd hate to see steal altered and hopefully a solution will arise to ammend these problems.

Velius · Post by **Velius** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:05 am

Alvirin wrote:Could be possible somehow make harder sell stolen items? Like only certain merchants be able to buy stolen items.

In the game Oblivion you are only allowed to sell stolen items to certain members of the Thieves Guild, would that be a good idea? A merchant in the lawful city of Waterdeep would not buy a stolen item and would probably report the thief, whereas a fellow guild member wouldn't mind to accidently drop a coin or two to get a decent item. It'd also allow players to get stolen items back, and the RP would be decent.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:15 am

I understand wanting to make it easier via code, but to keep realism in the game I don't think only selling to 'shady merchants' is the best solution. Please remember you are talking about an entire continent (and then some) of people. Sure, there are people who know that 'The Grand Knight' sword belongs to Character A, but most 'mobs' would be ignorant as to who the true owner is. Even still, most of them wouldn't care. :/

I like the idea of having the interrupt though so that the player then has no excuse. I would also like that added to player houses for when you attempt to pick locks instead of dying immediately instead.