levels below ten

Scylere · Post by **Scylere** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:19 pm

I appreciate that levelling takes some effort now, but I'd like to suggest that levels below ten be a bit easier.

At level ten, everything exciting happens for you, like beginning your career as a fighter or wizard or in a religious order. I'm finding that it's very draining and boring to level to level ten.

You can't really leave the newbie temple to fight things in the world, because you aren't strong enough, and you don't gain any experience if you're grouped with people, because experience is dependent on the damage you inflict on creatures. So you're left with beating on dummies for long hours.

This may not be too difficult for a fighter with high strength, but if you're a rogue or wizard with low strength, it can take forever just to reach level ten. I'd rather be out in the world, adventuring with groups, talking with people, joining a guild or religion.

Therefore, I'd like to see what others think about making level progress up to level ten easier, but keeping levels above ten more difficult, as they are now.

Caelyvar · Post by **Caelyvar** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:23 pm

I am afraid I agree. I know the usefulness of a slow start and getting to know the game. But really. I do believe that it should be a bit faster getting to 10, after that. . . I can get behind the slow progression of levels.

But those first ten, make it very hard for me to want to play my low level characters. I WANT to, but I cant go adventuring and killing dummies and rats and everything in the sewers is repetative. I would rather be RP'ing but its tough to do that when you want to get even a tiny bit better.

Just my random thoughts

Tobias · Post by **Tobias** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:31 pm

I back the two previous statements. After ten is fine slow progression but..levels six through ten to earn take way to much. I think it kinda deters newer players to the game and makes others not want to try something new. I could see while they are within these levels have a special experience gain modifier to help them get to the point where they can go and grow as a character in their respective guilds and the like. Since you can't even join a faith/guild till lvl 10 anywho.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:19 pm

I was under the impression this was done intentionally. This progressive droning on of slaying the horrible dummy-monster over and over again so that, as result, 'people are able to have the time to develop their characters more ICly and get a better feel for the game.'

I'm completely for 'fixing' this. I find it annoying, repetitive, and overly boring. This is the exact reason why I have not been working on any of my other characters. The old system allowed us to decide when we feel our characters should be progressing.

I'm certain the responses will include, "well, RP more and you'll barely notice it" or "you shouldn't worry about leveling, you should think about your character and their progress."

Everyone plays this game differently and I miss the flexibility of the old leveling system. Razing 'leveling areas' repeatedly makes me feel like a code abuser and I'm sure any Immortal watching me undergo this ritual is just as bored with watching it as I am doing it.

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:33 pm

Yowch, Selveem!

I actually agree with this, but is it possible to keep sarcasm out of it? It makes it then pretty hard for anyone else to agree with the very reasonable posts above, because it looks like we then simultaneously agree with the slightly bitchy post following it.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude or flamey, but there are ways to argue against something without sarcastically quoting in the worst possible position, the views at the time of the change. At the time, I'm sure the intention was so people get "to have the time to develop their characters more ICly and get a better feel for the game," as your quote, but the intention wasn't to create a situation where there is a "progressive droning on of slaying the horrible dummy-monster over and over again".

Whilst I agree with lots of what you say, Selveem, I'm just objecting to the overall tone of this particular post. Please, please, if you want to say that you find it boring, do so. If you want to say it doesn't give people time to develop their characters more ICly (and I believe it doesn't) then give reasons for those views. I think I understand a frustration you feel with seemingly being "forced" to spend ages below level 10. I'll go on record here as well, by saying I think the overall level slow-down throughout the MUD and not just at level 10, isn't particularly brilliant.

And the thing is, we're all entitled to those opinions here, and as long as we present them in a constructive, thoughtful manner, I'm sure the staff members will listen to them and bear them in mind. If we make sarcastic comments about aims they had with the "level-up slowdown", well, personally, I can't think of any better way short of typing "die, imms, die", to get them annoyed and switched off from this entire thread.

I hope I come across as faintly reasonable in this, but I really, even as someone who agreed with this post, didn't find your tone particularly pleasant.

I'm sorry. I may just be an over-sensitive person unable to correctly take note of written "tones".

~Ol

Sairaven · Post by **Sairaven** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:24 am

Perhaps it is possible to shorten the grind to ten on secondary/etc characters? Once a character has made it to level 10 (i.e. your first character, a flag goes on the account that activates the XP modifier.

Or maybe once an account has X amount of hours the XP modifier goes into effect.

Just a few random thoughts.

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:30 am

I agree, I haven't been able to work new alts past level 2 because I don't have the patience.

Normally, I would level to 10, and leave the newbie temple forever then sit at 10 for a long time, now, I just sit at level 2-5.

It's not horrible, I'm just lazy. :)

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:33 am

As someone who can't manage to get any real time or energy into a second alt, I am at a loss to understand the situation for folks who have many. But since it is awfully relevant, can I ask if someone making a second, third, or nth alt of the same general tenor as an existing one (say a goodly city slicker) doesn't have a heck of a lot of quests they push this new character through, that they already know all about? Isn't that boring too? If this time period really doesn't offer any added value, wouldn't it make sense to skip not just the XP but the ostensibly also-robotic questing?

Let me add as corollary that I am at times frustrated at how quickly/often/readliy many players give up on alts. They are surprisingly often abandoned, generally leaving all kinds of RP hanging. Have veterans here noted any change in how often this happens? Was reducing this one of the intents of making XP progression slower? If so, has it worked?

Sairaven · Post by **Sairaven** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:41 am

I cannot speak for others, but I alt to explore different sides of RP. Sairaven is an upstanding, honorable warrior (in his own eyes, at least), but Taivari is an inquisitive, mischevious imp with a wicked sense of humor. I have a concept in mind for a ranger-ish character, but I need to hammer out a few details and accrue the kismet for it before I even start discussing it.

Alting, to me, is a way to explore myself, just as my characters explore Faerun. Having a slow process to 10 doesn't effect me, but I can sympathize with those it does. Because 10 is, to quote a friend "the sweet spot," it is where most of the foundations of a character start to really affect them. Anything pre-10 risks being filler to get them to that point.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:10 am

Frankly, the problem isn't just the level breaks below level 10, it's the experience point gain as a whole now.

What only exacerbates the problem is the fact that experience is also the currency used to train your skills.

Just to train climb to amateur on my lowbie fighter took me from "may advance" to "only begun your journey" again. It's frustrating and defeating to gain enough for a level, and then lose it all for five-six ticks in a skill... I've stopped trying, and just sit around and play on the PCs I don't have to worry about levels with

What's worse, since the exp accrual was changed, it no longer pays to group up. If you have someone in your party that is much higher level than yourself, the experience reward drops to virtually nothing for everyone in the party. I'm seeing more people trying to solo, and more people dying as a result.

When this drop in EXP rewards happened, it was done to fix a set of mobiles that were giving too much exp. What has actually happened is that the code is broken in the other direction, this is NOT the middle ground. We can talk about quality of roleplay, and players enjoying the low levels, but when it gets to the point that you NEVER level without grinding, it's no longer fun to make a character. Not for me anyway, and it seems like enough people have finally gotten to the point of trying to make a new alt on the game that its hit home for more people how dismal the exp gain really is.

Amalia · Post by **Amalia** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:57 pm

I've seen this same slow progression and railed against the need to grind-- the only reason I'd made the new character in the first place was that I'd planned to leave her at ten, but I soon discovered that to be able to learn/do the things that RP-wise she would need to do, I'd have to get higher than that. I did discover one thing that, while still sort of grinding, might help others to keep the process more varied until we can work through the problem-- training a skill by only one notch and then practicing that skill gives you XP every time (or every few times, I'm not sure) that the skill improves. That helps mitigate the amount of XP lowbies spend on learning skills, and at least varies what you're doing when you're grinding-- a fair number of skills could be improved in cities or even with the help of other PCs, opening up the chance to roleplay a bit more. It might just be me, but I thought the progression got a little easier at 15-20, and skills/trades/publication/RP rewards did a lot to help me get to that point.

Ceara · Post by **Ceara** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:07 pm

I've actually noticed that even grouping with characters around my level I still get no exp at all. This should really be fixed if we're encouraging grouping.

Arothian · Post by **Arothian** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:07 pm

I have to agree. The XP system is a real drag to those of us who don't have the patience or interest to go and grind on the same thing, over and over, until you gain a level, and then go out and do it all over again to get experience to train the skills at that level. I have both of my characters sitting doing practically nothing for a long time. One is sitting at 10 (just recently have I begun trying to train again) and one is sitting right around 25. The problem is more that grinding, to me, is tedious, and reminds me of when I played World of Warcraft. I left that game because I couldn't stand just sitting there, doing the same thing, over and over and over.

I won't be leaving, because I enjoy the RP aspect of FK a lot, but when things become dependent on being higher level (such as fighting competitions and things like that) then I get left out.

Just my two copper.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:38 pm

I've actually noticed that even grouping with characters around my level I still get no exp at all.

None? Is this really true? I don't know the details of code (I don't work on that side of things), but if PCs get NO xp at all, that's a problem.

Tobias · Post by **Tobias** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:45 pm

Yea when i made a new char its like you get 1 xp if any at all in the newbie pit but if you move out to persay howling peaks with other pc's you get none at all until your at least level 15! The only way one can get xp is if they solo the goblins and..when they have spears is a death warrant.

Velius · Post by **Velius** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:33 am

I've almost totally given up on alts... I was amazed when I got 1 character to level 10. I was cheering out of my mind. Unfortunately my luck has run out and it seems IMPOSSIBLE to make it to level 10, so I'll stick with Velius ( my only level 10+ character ), and hope that next time I decide to spend mindless hours slaughtering dummies I don't make a priest...

Sorry if I've offended anyone, Its just really hard trying to enjoy the game when you are under level 10 for SOOO long, and everything fun requires you to be level 10.

Rawlys · Post by **Rawlys** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:13 am

Someone mentioned that we maybe should make a 'short cut' for previous players to go from the first few levels up to level 10, specifically, the one's with alts. While the previous players know how the game works and what needs to be done in order to make it to the next level, I would like to place some concern on the new players. The one's that come on with a magic user or, basically anything except a warrior.

It's quite difficult to gain XP by killing dummies if you're not a killer. Personally, I don't think there should be a short cut or 'skip it' button but rather, could we increase the XP the dummies (or what have you) give out in the newbie training areas? Or a possibility of stealing things or learning how spells work that will grant you a certain amount of XP every time you do it?

I know there has been discussions about how to reward or gain XP by doing other things (RPing, using skills, completing quests, etc) than just killing mobs, so I'll just keep my fingers crossed that a universally good and viable way is implemented in the future. No need to keep pounding the issue.

And out of curiousity, is the 'new combat' system something that currently is in the works or still in the planning stage? I only ask because it seems that a lot of issues that we currently have (honestly, it's not that many and they're all workable) can be dealt with with the implementation of it. Then again, I'm not a coder and I'm just shooting from the hip on this subject.

-Rawlys

Oghma · Post by **Oghma** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:22 am

I'll echo that I am concerned over this. That exp may not be working correctly, that new players are either unable to level without grinding or not at all even casually is not a good thing. I have been noticing that there has been a slight unbalancing where newer or newly created players stay mainly in the 10-25 range of leveling for a majority of time, the higher levels a result of almost constant adventuring and little rp. I would angle for the reduction of exp on dummies to remain but I would leverage that with higher exp gains in other places. My only concern is that people would return to power leveling at a faster rate to lv 50, but after reading these observations I do think it can be looked into.

Ceara · Post by **Ceara** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:17 pm

I have had several instances where I have been grouped with characters and gotten no exp at all because of it, in an area where I would normally get a lot of exp. At first I thought this was because they were a higher level than me.
However recently I went into howling peaks with a char under level 20, found another character near my level. Grouped with them to get them out and again go no exp at all for killing goblins along the way. Normally I do get some exp there, but not that time. I don't know if the person I was with got exp or not. I didn't ask the other chars specific level but I would guess between lvl 10 and 20 given what they were wearing and lost limbs.

Arothian · Post by **Arothian** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:39 pm

First: This entire post is going to be semi-informed SPECULATION.

I repeat: Informed SPECULATION ONLY.

That said....

I have played, and been an immortal on several SMAUG code based muds in the past. I know that FK is heavily modified, but is originally based on SMAUG code. These are two things that may or may not be useful, depending on how modified things are:

1) SMAUG muds generally have a 5 level buffer, if I'm not mistaken. If you are outside of 5 levels, the lower level party member would recieve minimal exp, if any. This -could- be a cause for why people do not recieve xp.

2) SMAUG muds also have a killcount buffer. I can't remember the exact number, but if you go and kill X amount of certain vnum mobs (let's say 10) then the experience you recieve from killing them diminishes, eventually providing no experience at all. This can be particularly hard to track with FK, due to the non-numeric exp display. The way to clear this buffer is to go and kill x number of differently named (vnumed) things until the buffer is cleared.

3) An addendum to the first part that I was not thinking about until after 2... If your character level is outside of the mob level range by more than a certain number, even if it is higher level, you do not receive any experience.

(EDIT) 4) Also, again, basing my speculation on the way "normal" SMAUG muds work, experience is awarded after the mob is defeated. Yes, you do get more experience if you do more damage, but if the mob "wins" (by causing you to flee, or die) you get no experience from actually fighting. This is another reason that grouping with characters that are more powerful than you nets you little to no experience. Player A hits 50 times, Player B hits 10... the split it 5/6, 1/6. ...I think...

Again, a lot of this could be completely wrong, as I do not know what the FK code looks like by any means, but I thought I would throw these out to maybe help.

-- Arothian