Polymorph

[Caelyvar]

If you use the polymorph spell to morph into someone SPECIFIC, like another PC

Do you also change your voice pattern to match?

[Moloch]

I would say depending on the capabilities of the person using polymorph, it is a possibility. Polymorph changes the entire body of the caster.

[Glim]

Id say yes. The vocal cords and everything that affects how your voice would change, so your voice would change to match them. Now... how they speak and their own mannerisms might not be the same.

So, you might sound like them, but that doesn't mean you can speak or act like them.

[Horace]

It's not possible with the spell...polymorph or polymorph any object doesn't really let you transform into specific people.

But if it /was/ possible (or is in this medium). It wouldn't allow mannerisms, at least, magically. It'd work as the spell "alter self", which does not transfer the mannerisms of the form you're choosing to take.

[Kregor]

It's not really fair to assume in FK code that you can completely assimilate some other actual person to the point of fooling others who know this person. As mentioned above, mannerism and vocal intonation and inflections would be different from the actual person, even if mocked by someone who knows the person they're impersonating.

Also, if we were in a proper setting (ie, one like real D&D that allows a counterbalance for every attempt at something.) Anyone you fooled would be allowed a will save to disbelieve your mockery, even IF polymorph allowed you to change imitate another actual person. And any opponent who had even a half-decent WIS would have a pretty good chance of seeing you aren't who you want them to THINK you are.

<rant>
This is, in my thoughts, one of the biggest flaws with FK's code-with-no-balances approach to skills and spells. It's why so many thieves treat hide like it was invisibility, and smote like they can taunt and tease people while still "hidden". It's why steal is so unbalancing in it's current treatment. It's why so many things are just too good for their own good; because the default is for a player to consider themselves invulnerable, to consider their hiding somehow magical, to treat a polymorph as if you could change yourself into Lord Piergieron and fool the watch captain (ONLY if you were a doppelganger, because such a creature absorbs the memories and actions of the person they kill and impersonate supernaturally as well). One should always assume there is a will to disbelieve or perceive, when one is attempting to deceive in any way.
</rant>

[Nysan]

Hehe, and people wonder why my old druid casts faerie fog so much...lol.

[Mele]

If you polymorphed into someone else there are no code consequences. You cannot get that person in any trouble that would ruin their character.

I remember back in the day Llanthyr used to purposely change into someone else in the Market just to confuse and play with everyone there. It's no harm, it's just rp.

What could possibly be so horrible about someone polymorphing or disguising as someone else when nothing can truely happen to ruin their character? (Obv it could be proven the person was NOT who they were impersonating.)

For how often we complain about twinking or grinding, it's a bit much how something so little could be brought into a bad light when it promotes so much RP.

[Horace]

Wait, so it's actually possible to polymorph into a specific person in this game? i thought this was all just hypothetical...

I definitely get where Kregor is coming from now. Code abuse is code abuse, whether it's done from a mechanical bent, or taken on from an angle that is very loose with rules. With this logic, a hiding person could justifiably smote "someone says in $Estriana's voice "I hate honkies" "

There's no difference from someone smoting that, and someone polymorphed as another person and being able to say or smote whatever they like without echo's to represent the imperfection. Whether or not it generates RP shouldn't be the sole justification...anything can generate roleplay, but not everything should be allowed.

[Mele]

No difference between someone doing that or using ventrilloquism, either..

If it's not hurting anyone and generating RP then I can't see why it's a problem. I'm not JUSTIFYING it with saying it generates rp, because I don't see it needing to be justified. It frustrates me to see yet another skill being brought of the question of "Fairness".

Why is every tiny thing so over analyzed?

[Horace]

I agree. The big difference being that ventriloquism requires the target to be within the area while the spell is cast. If you're legitimately allowed to polymorph into someone and act as if you were them, even after they were off line, it'd be just as legitimate to hide or invis and smote that "someone's" voice sounded exactly like Bill's and definitely nothing at all like Ted's.

I don't think over analyzing is the problem, so much as some people find some actions as being outside the scope of the "skill/power" while others find it perfectly within the scope. This causes an inconsistency, and those are usually best to get ironed out quick.

[Raona]

I believe the essential problem in all these cases is that there's no saving throw that applies, making it possible for an attempt like this to blow up in your face...and since resistances and saving throws are being worked on, I think that may soon be remedied. In the interim, though, it would be great if folks can take the first hint of skepticism/alert/doubt/alarm on the part of others to be an indication that they either need to bail out on the effort and make a dash for it, or come clean and unhide/let their voice slip/say something obviously off the mark/etc.

[Rhiel]

Aye, Raona. In P&P you're allowed to make a "disbelief" check (CHA or WIS based, methinks). Cool this is, you're allowed the check whether your conscious of any fear/illusion/phantasm affects nearby. Perhaps in FK this could translated into a general Stat check? Such as CHA, perhaps (since it's an underused stat anyways, as far as stats and RP goes, IMO)

I have to be with Mele on this one. Is it really that big a deal? Let's spend our effort on something beneficial and helpful to everyone who plays! Polymorph is a wicked awesome spell, and it can be used in a lot of ways. Let's just leave it there for the moment. Get the big stuff out of the way, and come back to it later. So far, it's not caused a lot of harm, has it? Well...check out the pregnancy thread. lol. It *potentially* could be disastrous on a pregnant woman.

[Moloch]

Polymorph is not an illusion spell...It is the actual transmutation of the character INTO said shape.

[Horace]

Yeah, except it's not suppose to be able to replicate. If you touched moloch, for example, it'd give you the ability to polymorph into a tiefling. It would not give you the ability to polymorph into an exact replica of Moloch.

That would be crazy. You gain the races/template physical modifiers, not the specific persons. Every wizard ever would be walking around polymorphed as some badass fighter (if this was possible), gaining their str/dex/con - while still retaining their own int/wis/cha. The way it should be, is that if you're a feeble old wizard, you could polymorph into "human" and retain a physical form that wasn't crippled...but it certainly wouldn't be of anyone specific.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in a quick glance through the spell compendium, I didn't see a single spell that was that powerful. To do what this 4th level spell is doing, you'd need to cast "clone" a level 8 spell, which takes 2d4 months to create...and /then/ cast "magic jar" a level 5 spell on the clone, leaving your own lifeless body behind for 1 hour per caster level.

So to do what people are using polymorph for, you'd actually have to wait months just to create the body perfectly with a level 8 spell, and then leave your actual body lifeless and completely open to attack for hours...but it's doable with a level 4 spell with no downsides at all and instantaneous? Come on

[Rhiel]

Well, from my understanding, the polymorph spell in FK is mostly cosmetic, isn't it? Shapechange applies the stat modifiers, but polymorph does not. Is that correct?

EDIT: Upon reviewing the help file, I am forced to admit that the polymorphy spell does indeed morph a character codewise as well, much like shapechange. THAT could pose a problem, perhaps. However, since there really ISN'T an illusion spell to create a doppleganger, or to make a simulacrum or anything of that nature, for RP purposes, couldn't we utilize polymorph in such a way? I mean, we must assume these PC's are behaving responsibly, and won't abuse the system.

[Nysan]

Only a mix of polymorph and several illusion based spells could mimic a person exactly. Even then, it would take a bit of acting on the part of the caster to pull it off well.

[Glim]

Only a mix of polymorph and several illusion based spells could mimic a person exactly. Even then, it would take a bit of acting on the part of the caster to pull it off well.

I disagree. I think that polymorph and a bit of acting would be all that is needed. Illusion spells would not be needed if the person was polymorphed.

Polymorph will change every physical aspect of a person. You will sound, look, even smell and taste (yes, gross >.<), like the person you are polymorphed into. What you will have to do your best to mimic and is not changed is actions, memories, and speech patterns. That is where acting would come in.

Feedback is always welcome,

[Horace]

'As alter self..... Alterself (snip)...You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

You're not suppose to be able to polymorph into specific people.

[Rhiel]

I've seen it done. It's a good RP, right? What takes precedence? Rules lawyering, or good RP? As long as it's done properly, and with respect, and not abused, I still fail to see where imitating another person is such a horrible thing. IMO, anything that generates stimulating RP is great! Remember the nature of the beast. While FK attempts to emulate 3.5, it is not P&P. We have certain boundaries and limitations, and creative uses of the existing system should not be condemned as long as everyone's having a good time, and no feelings or anything get bashed on.

Just my opinion, btw.

[Horace]

Anything can generate roleplay. Going beyond the nature of skills/powers to do so isn't necessary. And it's not rules lawyering...rules lawyering is hiding behind mechanics that don't make sense.

This makes sense.