4th Edition Forgotten Realms

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:35 am

Warning, contains some spoilers from future Forgotten Realms sourcebooks.

With the advent of the 4th edition of the rules of Dungeons & Dragons, Forgotten Realms is the first world to be updated to the new edition. Changes in edition generally mean changes in how some rules work, and those changes have sometimes been "explained" by big events in the Realms (often nicknamed RSE, for Realms-Shaking Events).

The best known RSE is most likely the Time of Troubles, when the gods walked the mortal lands, some gods were killed (e.g., Bhaal, god of murder, Myrkul, Bane - who later reappeared, even though he has not yet reappeared in FK -), and some mortals ascended to godhood (Cyric, Midnight/Mystra). The disppearance of the god of murder and assassins for example "explained" the fact that "assassin", which used to be a player class, got the axe. The change from Old Mystra to New Mystra/Midnight explained changes in how magic worked.

The move to 4th edition is also going to introduce many rule changes, and, once again, magic will be modified (moving away from the Vancian system [i.e., the memorization system] to a more flexible system, going from spells that can be cast once a day to spells that can be cast once per "encounter", and so on). The new RSE that Wizards of the Coast created to explain those changes is called the Spellplague (an event that (indirectly) caused the death of one archmage already, in the adventure described here - spoilers ahead!).

Now, as with many changes, there have been many fears, many rumours, many "They are killing the Realms!" comments, many "Nice change! That might make me want to play in the Realms!" answers, and so on. A freely readable chapter from a soon-to-be-published novel describes an event set 100 years in the future, where Drizzt muses over what happened to the Realms in the meantime, indicating that several good gods were killed, that many civilizations fell, and that the Realms became a much darker place (you can find the free chapter here). That frightened many fans of the Forgotten Realms, who saw in it the announcement that civilizations they grew to love (Cormyr, Sembia, the Sword Coast, ...) would disappear.

Another load of rumour came yesterday/today when the first fans got their hands on the soon-to-be-released product "A Grand History of the Realms" (see here), a - in my opinion very interesting - book that compiles a timeline of the Realms as well as several goodies (excerpts from "historical" texts, royal genealogical trees, ...). The timeline ends in 1385 DR with the following events (last warning: spoilers ahead!).

In 1384 DR, Tyr kills Helm in a romantic misunderstanding over the heart of Tymora. Though nothing can be proved, the gods believe that Cyric is somehow involved in Helm's death.

In 1385 DR, With help from Shar, Cyric murders Mystra in Dweomerheart, destroying the plane and Savras, as well as sending Azuth and Velsharoon into the Astral plane.

Magic bursts from the bonds of the Weave. Thousands of mages are driven insane or destroyed, and the very subsatnce of the world becomes mutable beneath the veils of azure fire that dance across the sky.

Cyric is imprisoned on his home plane for 1000 years by Tyr, Lathander, and Sune for his crimes. This event is what is known as the Spellplague

Tobias · Post by **Tobias** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:39 am

Ooooo...that makes me want to read the stuff! Hopefully Waterdeep Surives -coughs-

Larethiel · Post by **Larethiel** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:09 pm

must get it, thanks for the info! Price seems okay, too

Tyr kills Helm? Bah...I'm disappointed.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:26 pm

Looks like someone should lose their portfolio. Killing someone over a misunderstanding? Doesn't sound very Just to me.

Solaghar · Post by **Solaghar** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:11 pm

It's really nice to see Forgotten Realms being given the respect it deserves by being the first of the campaign settings to be updated.

Hviti · Post by **Hviti** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:12 pm

Mystra killed? Mages insane? Sounds like things could get interesting for the wizards out there

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:53 pm

I must admit that I'm really not very fond of seeing Tyr kill Helm over a love story. Additional rumours (from people who already own the book) indicate that Sune was the one who advised Tyr to court Tymora (why, I do not know). That part really does not make much sense to me (though we are obviously missing information).

As for Mystra's death ... I believe that was done to make the Forgotten Realms more attractive to those who critized this setting because

Their PCs couldn't feel like heroes when there were so many high level wizards and Chosens of Mystra around to do heroic stuff and save the world.
The world is too detailed, too complex, with too many gods.

Obviously, Wizards of the Coast is currently walking a rather thin line with their modifications of the Forgotten Realms: they seem to want to change the setting to meet the criticisms I cited above. It remains to be seen if they are going to manage changing the Realms enough to attract players who didn't like the setting before, but not so much that old fans decide that it is not the Realms anymore and leave.

Currently my personal opinion is that (a) they'd better find a consistent justification for the Tyr/Helm/Tymora thing, and (b) oh great... they have killed Mystra ... again. That's the third time the goddess of magic has been killed; I would have hoped they would have come up with something a little bit more original this time.

I like big, Realms-shaking events that make sense ... but when the same RSE happen three times, it gets a bit boring (though I guess that some could argue that the three events were different, since Mystryl I sacrificed herself, Mystra I was killed by Helm, and Mystra II was killed by Cyric/Shar).

Hviti · Post by **Hviti** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:56 pm

Dalvyn wrote:[Their PCs couldn't feel like heroes when there were so many high level wizards and Chosens of Mystra around to do heroic stuff and save the world.

You can never have too many high level wizards around to do heroic stuff and save the world.

The Mystra death does seem to be rather a bit of deja vu. Personally I'd prefer the pantheon left alone - or if someone has to die, one of those random Mulhorandi types you hardly ever hear about anyway.

Tobias · Post by **Tobias** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:31 pm

For MYstra dieing it is bleh since it has happened many times before..but couldn't like one of her chosen gather up all the chosen and one of them step forward to take her spot? -innocent look- Everyone fears Elminster it'd be kinda cool to see him as a god of the weave hehe and it would remove the most powerful enchanter from play as a mortal man and leave the chosen as normal people without the silver flame at least until elminster gathers his strength and godhood and the like.

Tyr killing helm ..bah. I'd rather have Mask kill Cyric!!

Solaghar · Post by **Solaghar** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:52 pm

Helm's relationship with Tyr, Torm and Ilmater has always been strained. Helm isn't a good deity by any means, and as they point out, seems that Cyric had a hand in it that can't be proven, most likely Tyr didn't mean to kill Helm. I can't wait to find out what happens there, and who picks up the pieces of Cyric's portfolio, if he still remains a power while imprisoned on his home plane or parts of it revert back to Bane, Mask, etc.

Belose · Post by **Belose** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:12 am

Geez... we're going to have to learn another new spell system? Clerics, too, I guess? Maybe I should just play Braeck from now on.. at least a fighter can BE a fighter and not have to worry about getting downsized or reorganized....<mutters> Why do we keep having to make a good thing perfect? I LIKED the old ways!!!! Who needs things being more realistic? IT'S A GAME! It's supposed to be UNREALISTIC!!! I want to chuck spells or prayers!!!

P.S. As long as you're changing things.. considering how much halflings eat, shouldn't they have a powerful gas attack to clear the areas? Just a thought....

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:33 pm

More rumours found on the web about the Tyr/Tymora/Helm thing.

Siamorphe gets pissed at the boss, Tyr, and leaves the House of the Triad.
Tyr knows that Siamorphe is a valuable divine entity and wants her back to keep the Triad strong
Sune seeing conflict on the horizon wants to strengthen Brightwater and gives Siamorph a new home.
Helm and Sune barter for Siamorphe's return. Sune figures a political treaty between Brightwater and the HotT would be good. A marriage between Tyr and Tymora would seal the deal. Sune gives some Love potion No.9 to enhance Tyr's and Tymora's attraction. Maybe Cyric diverts the Love Mojo to Helm instead.
Tyr is Awful Lawful and follows some archaic form of courtship. Helm acts as the broker. Cyric creeps over and in his best Iago impersonation gets Tyr to believe Helm is not being chaste enough or something. It only has to be a really minor infraction in Tyr's eyes for him to say something to Helm. Helm takes it as a slight to his honor being impugned and demands satisfaction. Tyr is awful lawful and accepts. Helm dies. Tyr is horrified. Tymora, thanks to Sunes influence, is heart broken that Helm is dead and she is married to his killer. Unlucky in love, I guess.
Sune is one ruthless SOB. She gains a whole bunch of the House of the Traid to her court, gets rid of fickle Tymora and weakens Tyr's position with the other gods. She pins the rap on Cyric and gets him imprisoned but not before he and Shar whack Mystra, Sune's 'friend'. Very Machiavellian. Sune is now one of the most influential gods in the Great Tree or whatever it turns into, the Great Topiary.

Yuck.

Larethiel · Post by **Larethiel** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:43 pm

I don't like that, it seems teenage, not deity-like.IMO

But then, it seems as if my beloved elven pantheon suffers from nothing, so all is good

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:46 pm

I am not so sure that the elven pantheon is not going to suffer as well. I know that the dwarven pantheon has been reduced a lot. There's another event in the Grand History of the Realms that indicates that (for an undisclosed reason) several dwarven deities fight each other, and several of them die (including one Grom, and Halea Brightaxe - that last name should be familiar to those who have recently visited Torstultok).

Another quote for today ... Ed Greenwood (the creator of the Forgotten Realms)'s answer to "Was the Spellplague your idea?"

No, it was not my idea.

However, before every scribe or Realms fan everywhere grabs that comment and shouts, “See! They’re ruining the Realms and Ed Greenwood hates what they’re doing!” I would ask everyone to remember that I walked this particular plank back in 1986, when I sold rights to the Realms to TSR, ceding artistic control of the setting.
From that day to this, except when I “get in first” to paint the picture of a person, place, or country in the Realms, I have been watching other people do things I might not have ever thought of, or agreed with, to the Realms, and exploring the consequences.
It’s what we all (“we” being everyone who works on the Realms, from artists who do line drawings for product interiors to Bob and Elaine as novelists to Eric and George as “lore lords”) DO: poke the Realms in various ways and see what happens. That’s what makes the world seem alive, the constant change.
Most humans hate most change. All of us can recall things (the house or neighbourhood or town where we grew up, perhaps) that have changed so much they’re “gone” for us; our remembered thing has been changed too much for us to accept it as the original. This could, yes, happen with the Realms, just as with every other thing. As I said before, we can’t tell yet (yes, that includes me, because I haven’t seen enough of the so-called “new Realms” yet). Yet riding this magnificent horse that gallops in different and often-surprising directions is what I do, and have done for four decades now, two of them in print with TSR and now Wizards.
I’m sticking with the horse for now, because I know it and love it and we’ve ridden far together. Bailing right now, at full gallop, would be painful, and I’d be left behind and never get to see what neat new places it will reach.
With that said, let me say how moved I am by the anger and upset various scribes have shown here in their postings. You care about the Realms so much. Thank you for that.
I understand your hurt. I have felt it too, over and over, down the last twenty years, and believe me I feel it now, as characters get whacked and I face the prospect, that I’ve been fending off with potions of longevity for as long as I could, of others dying of old age before I ever get to really tell their stories.
I see the risk Wizards is taking, and sure hope it pays off. Whatever happens, I intend to go on sharing the Realms with gamers and readers for as long as I last. I am hard at work on future Realms goodies now, and am acutely aware of the Border Kingdoms and the unpublished city of Teziir and other things too long neglected.
If you need to vent, if you want to talk, I’m here (well, not HERE, but reachable via the Lovely Lady Hooded). I’ve been talking with many of you already about what to do in your own campaigns, and would like to remind everyone that playing up to the Year of Blue Fire can take you ten REAL years (or even longer); my home Realms campaign is proof positive of that. So you can have the luxury of not changing anything right now, and watching the 4e Realms unfold in print, before amking any decision. Lore replies here and elsewhere can still provide guidance in the “Lost Years.”
Please remember that although Wizards of the Coast is a business, it is a company staffed by GAMERS. And fiction writers. They care deeply about the products they publish, and would work elsewhere (because there are many, many fields where creative people can get better paid than in gaming) if they didn’t. So, please, ease off on the Evil Empire talk and wait and see what they DO first.
I’ll still be here (I hope; certain editors have promised to murder me messily if I blow certain deadlines :} ) . I still care about the Realms; no matter what happens to it, I brought it into the world and want to be there and see what it does. I hope all of you will, too.
To borrow the words of The Hooded One:
Love to all,
Ed

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:02 pm

As a longstanding player of a Tempurian devout, I would like to remind you all that I did predict accurately the events that seem to be transpiring. Love is a messy, dangerous thing. Sune is not to be trusted. Luck is fickle in her favor. This is why one of my Lord's teachings is that we "trust skill, not Luck!"

It is my request that we observe a moment of silence for Helm who in many ways is like Tempus.

The Church of Tempus will always welcome those who have come to the realization that battle is the true way of life. War brews and do not believe that the Faerun will not feel it too. Grab your arms and armor and die for something worth fighting for, not some petty love dispute!

Larethiel · Post by **Larethiel** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:18 pm

Hope is the last thing to die

Anyway, waiting and watching what they do might be the best. I just hope they mind the events that happened more or less recently and dedicate them a bit more than some little small side-bars, like the Crusade of Seiveril, reclaiming of Myth Drannor/Cormanthor and a bunch of other novel-based events that are actually official realms lore and mentioned in several sourcebooks but not really known.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:50 pm

Larethiel wrote:must get it, thanks for the info! Price seems okay, too

Tyr kills Helm? Bah...I'm disappointed.

nonono... even MORE interesting.... Tyr kills Helm, and lets Cyric take the rap! THAT.. is delicious!

Jaenoic · Post by **Jaenoic** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:26 pm

I'm sorry, Tyr killing Helm over a love dispute of Tymora? That's just lame. I don't EVER see the strict god of justice, who relies on codes and laws, becoming romantically involved with Tymora, who stakes everything on chance and being bold.

Tyr killing helm ..bah. I'd rather have Mask kill Cyric!!

Right on!!!

Tobias · Post by **Tobias** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:29 pm

Mmm but crimes of passion are another matter Jae! The normal fellow out follows all the laws adheres to them but falls in love and is passionate about it..driven mad by jealousy when something comes about..it happens >.> Those are the most brutal of crimes!

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:45 pm

Tobias, you have a criminal mind. You scare me.

You should play a rogue.