Unwelcome races in waterdeep

[Xerarack]

I've been gone for a while and noticed there is a list of unwelcome races in waterdeep. My question is how do you deal with them entering the city if no imm or member on the watch is around to help, and second is it good RP to have a know tiefling sitting in the middle of market square? I saw this recently, I'm not bashing anybodies RP, just kinda getting some guidance.

[Jaenoic]

As to what you should do if there are no Watch members/imms around, that is completely up to you. You can choose to ignore it if your character is so inclined, or make a big deal and yell and scream about them. You could try to take the law into your own hands as well, but remember that all actions come with consequences.

As for square-sitting tieflings. I am strongly against this. It is my belief that those who choose to create a tiefling do so knowing that they forfeit the ability to do certain things and go certain places that other characters may be able to do or go freely. It is the same in choosing a half-drow or orc. They are evil races that are not welcome in many cities.
Some might argue "but my tiefling looks like a human." Then I argue, they should have just made a human. I feel that making a tiefling and describing them without any of the obviously identifying markers of a tiefling is code abuse. It is taking all the benefits of the tiefling race with none of the drawbacks. Just as you do not create a dwarf and then in their description write that they look like an elf, you should not create a tiefling and describe them like a human.
So my point in all this is, in my opinion, tieflings should not be visiting Waterdeep and should ESPECIALLY not be going to the market square. Remember that if there's a situation that could be considered code abuse or just in general not a good idea, it is better to err on the side of caution than to assume it is ok.

EDIT: I'd also like to point you to this thread, which addressed the same issue in a sense. http://www.gallwey.com/fk/board/viewtopic.php?t=3743

[Selveem]

On the topic of Tieflings, I personally feel that not every Tiefling trait would be noticible. A tail can be concealed if different armors/apparel are worn (such as a cloak). I think it's extremely silly that most mobs 'won't train you because you're not of such faith/guild/race.' There are always circumstances where one may not be able to tell.

I don't think that gate guards should 'automatically boot a Tiefling' or that anyone else would suddenly recognize specific races/classes/etc without experience - especially on a case-by-case basis.

[Alvirin]

In my opinion aasimars, tieflings, half-orcs and all the "special" races must be always identified as such, part of the RP of these races is being revered/shunned on sight just for what they are.

[Tobias]

Not a must always be identified..some of the demon blood comes out in personalities if not in looks. The way the gate guards boot people that is coded in and I can see why but some tieflings who make it to the square do it by hiding there lineage some how or are pretty powerful in there own right and don't give a flying hoot..since a level fifty wizard in FR settings is a pretty powerful force to be reckoned with what normal guard could walk up and take them outta the city unless they let them truly.

[Hrosskell]

The evil/monstrous races ARE shunned on sight - that is why they are trying to change their appearance, hide their identity, or something of that nature. While I do not agree with square-sitting, there is some necessity of travelling there, depending on your RP - or if you just want to make trouble.

I believe this also brings up another problem, however: If so many tieflings, orcs, half-drow, drow, goblins, whatever, are drawn to the square, perhaps it is because they are not drawn elsewhere. This seems like it has always been a problem, and might always be - and it has often been addressed or referenced to, I have never seen a solution.

[Selveem]

As much as we try to get away from it, even on characters of which it is not IC for me to sit around the Market Square on (like Selveem) I still do go there to meet and greet. Waterdeep's Market Square is still the primary meeting hub of the game. Unfortunate as this is for the Orcs and Drow and other races that have harder problems to conceal their 'shunned traits' this does not appear to be something that will be changing anytime new.

[Hviti]

Not a must always be identified..some of the demon blood comes out in personalities if not in looks. The way the gate guards boot people that is coded in and I can see why but some tieflings who make it to the square do it by hiding there lineage some how or are pretty powerful in there own right and don't give a flying hoot..since a level fifty wizard in FR settings is a pretty powerful force to be reckoned with what normal guard could walk up and take them outta the city unless they let them truly.

I don't think being level 50 or being a certain class can be used as a justification for doing something if there are rules against it. If the watch wants to kick you out and you aren't Elminster, they probably can. Watch wizards have access to a huge pool of spell slots and there are hundreds of them...and then there are battalions of guards. If a city of the magnitude of Waterdeep (or ZK or Baldur's Gate or Zazz...) really did have an IC reason for wanting to keep out a certain sort of person, it should be perfectly able to ICly. I think it would be perfectly IC for the watch to boot out a player who isn't supposed to be there...and fountain sitting while no high ranking watch members are on seems like dodging the issue.

[Tobias]

I wasn't using class or level as justification except I was trying to say is..
a Powerful wizard elminster or not is pretty darn powerful just like a high priest of a god would be considered pretty powerful especially faith managers who are basically chosen I think. Would be hard to dislodge from sitting in market square. A fighter thief bard even ar anger it would be a hard thing to perhaps dislodge them but above all clerics and wizards could cause massive damage and loss of life to the normal populace of Waterdeep. Even though if you have read some of the novels of Forgotten Realms Waterdeep has a teeming underworld to it. They even have an alley hidden and it's nothing but halflings and gnomes and other smaller races own little Diagon alley type thing. They have had high priests of monster gods living in waterdeep and so forth. I rememebr reading in one book a tiefling wizard once an apprentice of Blackstaff lived there to. I was just trying to say if you step back and look at the destruction someoen could cause the normal average watch would have trouble removing them if it was persay a normal watch guard. While the watch does employ wizards and war wizards. Elminster isn't the only omnipotent wizard in Faerun.

[Mariela]

I personally think it's BS if you are playing a character who is half bred anything and are not allowed to be told you are a half breed by whatever reason. I hate the idea of you playing a Tiefling that is not allowed to be called a tiefling cause you "Look human"

Cause that is BS.
If you want to play a human, play a human.
If you want to play something exotic, play something exotic.

I am not saying half breeds are bad. I am saying that if you are playing one, don't do your description and say in it, "I look human" Cause you don't. You are a half bred. Unless you are the child of 2 half breeds, (or more deluted bloodline), you would have SOME trait that manifests from both your father and mother's side. You look like your parents. So if one of them is a full blooded demon.. you are going to carry some sort of trait that says... "oh look.. demon" Wether it's hair color, skin color.... the way your eyes iris's are six different shades.. something. Something will mark you as different. And that doesn't get into the way you would ACT like one or both of them.... especially if you are not raised by the human member of that equasion...


Now, the ONLY reason why people hate the fact that Waterdeep is race specific is because of the fact that it's the main stomping ground for the game. So they feel left out.

My response? Find some half blooded friends of your own... make a drow hang out bar... and hang out somewhere that is not Waterdeep and actually take some steps into making the game a wider circle.

If you are evil.. maybe you should think about staying in Zhentil Keep and I dunno.. start a chess league... especially if everyone KNOWS your character is evil. Rather than hanging around in the square... where you are not supposed to be and know it. What sort of statement does that make? Seriously? Oh look, you can sneak past the guards.. woot. Go your evilness.

I'm being snarky, but this is a common theme from a lot of people and yet NO ONE is attempting to do anything about it. If you don't like people congregating in Waterdeep proper... or you don't like the rules of Waterdeep.. MAKE AN ALTERNATIVE. And you don't even have to submit something. Gather your friends and say... you know what.. Let's sit in Shadowdale's tavern.. cause the goodies will never suspect we are planning their destruction there.

And for pete's sakes... not every half breed can pass for human. to be honest, I think it's BS that you can MAKE ME THINK YOU ARE HUMAN based upon your description when YOU, THE PLAYER, picked to be a half breed. Or A tiefling, or an assimar.. or whatever. If I cannot use the trigger words in your brief glance... what is it called... your adjective... why did you PICK THAT to begin with.. rather than just make a HUMAN or a DROW or whatever half breed nonsense you actually wanted to look like and apply for permission to be a poser? Why should I have to read through 12 paragraphs of description and then not even get to decide wether or not I would find out strange... or if my eyes would pass over you and decide... well... there's nothing right abou this eyes.. but he's probably human?

Why are YOU getting to make that choice for me?

For those of you who use disguises and use them well, thank you. You make my day.

[Oghma]

It was, when the new character creation system was brought in frowned on to create a unique race and then immediately bring them into Waterdeep to the market for roleplay. I still think that is the case. I have observed poor rp by several players as well as good rp in my personal opinion pertaining to this. I've always thought that Waterdeep was a city of almost a million souls and as such boasted a wide variety of streets, alleyways and squares. I can outline what I think is poor rp and what I think is good rp.

Poor Roleplay:

• *Demon descended player characters going directly to the market square to rp with other races
  
  *Half drow without ability to conceal or hide appearance running around Waterdeep in a public manner or causing the code to throw them out constantly creating spam of yelling and ignoring the rp of being tossed.
  
  *Centaurs coming into Waterdeep, utilizing spaces that could not otherwise accommodate them. Ex. small rooms, second floors, sewers.

Good Roleplay:

• *Tieflings utilizing disguise or magic to mask appearances for public use.
  
  *Use of hidden or secretive venues exclusively for Waterdeep rp and meetings
  
  *Use of species friendly venues for rp.
  
  *Superb secretive and careful entry or exits from places where rp's may not be welcome.

I can say that many steps have been taken to make other places attractive for rp and rp opportunities and many players are working and have worked hard to create opportunities to fill places or create proper rp for rare races.

What should be done?

I think that we walk a fine line in rp, that if we spend time and kismet creating characters we should roleplay them properly. If you think your tiefling looks human, that does not mean you will convince everyone of the same. It does however mean that you may have waisted your kismet trying to create a character that is human but is not human to reap the rewards of being in the tiefling race. Rather, it could be that or it might be just a line of roleplay. Frankly I am for applying to see if admins will agree to the line of rp instead of going ahead with it.

Perception is everything, there was a reason that most unique character races cannot start out in Waterdeep and it should be adhered to, if not for good roleplay then at least to build roleplay in other areas.

My opinions expressed here are my own based on observances made in the game since the inclusion of new races. They do not necessarily reflect the game as a whole nor do they single out or detract from any current character roleplays. Thank you.

[Raona]

If a given individual not welcome in the Deep is seen by enough folk and/or identified as causing trouble, the Watch will seek to have them individually banned. So report what you see! We'll make wanted posters and have the guards keep them out - even if they look human.

Any creature that looks human but is known to be otherwise would be wise to use discretion - one informed soul could incite a riot against them by pointing out a clear sign of their taint...and every outsider has one, well hidden or no.

If an entire race proves to be prone to this sort of thing, the Watch will ask to have the entire race banned, using magic to divine them, if needed.

Short of that, we'd like Waterdeep to be as open to as many as possible within IC reason, for the exact reason that it is the hub of player interaction in the game. That said, I don't think it makes any sense for it to be the default meeting place for evils.

[Mele]

Wow, are you kidding me?


If I want to play a tiefling that looks more human than demon, that is my right, and frankly, it's a refreshing thought over the tieflings that all have tails and wings or both. To see a tiefling that doesn't have a sign over their head saying they're halfdemon. What a horribly narrow thing to try to force someone to play an exotic race as something blatently different. I earned my kisment, if I want my aasimar to not even KNOW they're an aasimar, that's my business. There is a big difference between a tiefling that looks mostly like their human parent and a halforc that speaks like an orc and tries to chill in MS. ( And no, I don't play either of these things, so I'm not taking this personally. )

In real life, I am only second generation born to America. My father is portugese and spanish, and my mother is spanish. I am the whitest girl in the world. Sometimes, that's just plain old how it is. You don't look your part. Off the top of my head, I can name one tiefling that looks more human than demon, and every single other one I know of has a tail or wings or both or horns or whatever. While these tieflings are extremely well played and fun to roleplay with, it's nice to see someone who spent their kismet to be unique, but not carry every single demon trait over.(Not that the others do.)

Good Roleplay:


*Tieflings utilizing disguise or magic to mask appearances for public use.

Hood cloaks and masks too, imo.

[Mariela]

hile these tieflings are extremely well played and fun to roleplay with, it's nice to see someone who spent their kismet to be unique, but not carry every single demon trait over.(Not that the others do.)

Are you kidding me? The difference between a bunch of bloodlines of humans are not quite the same as being half bred to a demon. Unless you know something about the Portuguese that the rest of us don't know.

And I would like to say the fact that my family is EXTREMELY German in bloodline with a dash of Irish here and there is obvious. You are not going to see a photo of me and not think... German blooded. I would even bet that you would probably be able to guess the predominate religions of my family based upon my appearance. (Though probably not mine personally, as me and my parents are odd balls.) You might be off by looks on a few people now and again, for Swedish decent confuses even me... but most of the time, you can distinguish between pockets of European decent. Are you 100% accurate, no.. but you can make a pretty good guess if you are observant.

My point is that -YOU- should not tell me in your description. Give me your description and I will say wether or not I find you odd. If I find you demonic. Hell at one point, certain colonies thought that having bright green eyes was a sign of demon taint. But that's -my- call if I want to be the one holding the rock or the one ignoring it as a human trait. Just cause -you- want -your- character to be perceived as human.. that means you need to sell it to me on your description. Not telling me by way of saying, "I'm 5'2 and look human with dark hair and..." No. Maybe your dark hair to me doesn't look human.

See my point?

Do what you want. But if I decide something about your basic characteristics do not say, human.... you shouldn't be able to call BS on my character's opinion that you don't look human. Especially, as I have said before.. you have six colors in your iris... or that you don't KNOW that you are not human.

Hood cloaks and masks too, imo.

You know why I hate hooded cloaks and masks? Especially if they are not referred to now and again by the player in their smotes? You know and adjustment there and a flick of a hooded cloak there? I don't like cluttering up my screen with people's descriptions. I will eventually get around to your description.

So If I see a tag, "Enchantingly, Darkhaired, male tiefling.." Where am I going to get your hair color from? I mean.. obviously I see it poking out somewehre right? It's in your adjective. It's a trait you want people to notice first thing.. and the fact you are enchanting.... and oh gee.. .look at that.. a tiefling.... Must be something strange about you. Now... honestly, I might not say anything right away.. cause none of my characters are SUPER racist.. though one of them is super nervous around tieflings. But... if I don't have time or the patience to look at your textbook description.. Ialso don't see what you are wearing.. cause I never see your clothing. I dislike the fact that if you are hooded, you can't somehow flip that into your description like you would if you were disguised. It would be awesome if that would take away your adjective and replace it with "walking cloak" or something like that. "Deep hooded cloak with feet."

I could live with that.
Though if people would refer to the fact they are cloaked up to their eyeballs in the middle of summer heat in Waterdeep.. that would be great too. Cause.. its' not like that's not screaming.. "Hi.. I'm suspicious!"

[Nysan]

Be calm. Discuss, don't rant. We're all friends here.

[Mariela]

I am calm.
This is a logical debate. What made you think I was not?

Just because I am passionately involved in something that has intrigued my interest and some of my irritation does not mean I am not receptive to the arguments. I welcome arguments because that is where we learn.

[Tortus]

Are you kidding me? The difference between a bunch of bloodlines of humans are not quite the same as being half bred to a demon.

Tieflings are not equal to half-fiends. I don't know where you got the idea that they are.

Tieflings are the distant descendants of a human and some evil outsider, such as a demon (usually a marilith or succubus), devil (usually an erinyes, gelugon, or pit fiend), night hag, rakshasa, or even a servant of an evil deity (some of these creatures must use magic to assume a form that is compatible with a human mate, of course).

[Mariela]

Tieflings are the distant descendants of a human and some evil outsider, such as a demon

And how exactly was I wrong besides not also knowing they can be humans bred with night hags? Demons covers more than just demons in most common venacular, but how we put it as Abyssal subjects?

[Tortus]

I think you're missing the point of my post.

Tieflings are the distant descendants of a human and some evil outsider

You've been referring to tieflings as halfbreeds throughout the discussion. I wanted to point out that they're not half-fiends at all, but "distant descendants" of fiends.

Here, to illustrate my point is a picture of two half-fiends, and one of a tiefling and an aasimar.

[Mariela]

I am also dicussing every Half-bred character, not just tieflings.. but they just happen to be a good example. I was also talking about half drow... half orc... half... possum... whatever half breed you are speaking of. Not just Tieflings..

And what part of the definition of half am I missing? According to your definition a tiefling is defined as something that is bred with a human.. and something of a demon.. and thus.. a half bred.... ? What part of this am I missing?

Edited to include this:
A: Your pictures are wonderful. Beautiful.
And look at that.. tiefling.. though human looking. has HORNS in her HEAD!


B: Better definitions than what was provided originally, though still kinda seals in the point that just becacuse you are a tiefling does not mean you pass as a human:

A tiefling is a creature in the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game. Tieflings are "planetouched"; that is, they are mortal creatures that have in their blood some otherworldly characteristics.
Tieflings are descended from demons, devils and other creatures of pure evil alignment (including Evil deities); although their evil ancestor may be many generations removed, the taint still lingers. They are predisposed to Evil alignments though by no means are they always Evil.


Fiend: In the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game, the player characters (fictional characters controlled by the players) often come into conflict with a variety of monsters from folklore and mythology. One of the game's more prominent monsters are the various races of demons, devils and other malicious otherworldly creatures, collectively referred to as fiends. These creatures are of wholly evil alignment and hail from the Lower Planes.

My guess would be that fiends would be more pure breeded varieties of evil.. but just happend to be born on earth? Thus, more monsterous in apperance?

n aasimar is a creature in the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game. Aasimar are "planetouched"; that is, they are mortal creatures that have in their blood some otherworldly characteristics. Aasimar are descended from devas, angels and other creatures of pure good alignment; although their celestial ancestor may be many generations removed, their presence still lingers. Aasimar are predisposed to Good alignments, but they are by no means always good.