Leaving Waterdeep

Sairaven · Post by **Sairaven** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:08 pm

Selveem wrote: I personally think it would be nice to see more people wanting to play goodies that actually adventure out past Waterdeep.

I pulled the above quote out of a discussion over a feat, because I felt like asking: Is there a problem with people not risking leaving Waterdeep?

If I am not mistaken, the majority of player characters are adventurers (note: I say majority because I've seen a few artists / craftsmen), so why aren't there more people out adventuring? I routinely find myself traveling across the known world, but only rarely do I ever see anyone in Berdusk, or Westgate, or Shadowdale.

This is a massive world in scale, so I could understand not running into people that often. But I go to populated cities and find only NPCs.

As an additional point from that same feat discussion, it was mentioned that certain races (half-drow, half-orc, orc, etc) cannot go into Waterdeep. With this limitation, those who choose a city life are limiting not only their RP but the RP of those other players (RPing by one's self gets boring after a while, believe me). This is to say nothing of the rangers that find themselves in Waterdeep Market Square because they want to interact.

So, I'm not entirely sure what my post was trying to get at, but I felt like I needed to post something. Thank you for reading, if you did. And feel free to discuss!

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:51 pm

Sairaven,

Not to detract from your post because I genuinely appreciate your having done so.. My post was an exaggeration of a larger problem I see. Not particularly that they REALLY are stuck in Waterdeep, but most Goodies I've met are very timid. They don't seem very prone to actively joining groups to go into dangerous areas and the like.

My original intention was to explain that this is also a huge rift as to why many of the older players are now populating the 'evil character' pool. Some of us thrill-seekers get pretty bored of always sitting around and gabbing about who knocked who up and the price of a Sun Elf in Underdark.

I really would enjoy playing my goodies more (which I have more of than Neutral or Evil [which I have fewest of]) if others were more willing to shed some blood for a good cause!

Sairaven · Post by **Sairaven** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:30 pm

I understand, Selveem.

As a 'goodie' that goes out quite often (I'm outside of Waterdeep more often than I am inside the city), I think that your point was a good one, exaggerated or not.

In the book Designing Virtual Worlds1, Richard Bartle describes the four player castes. Socializer, Achiever, Explorer, and Killer.

I easily find myself in the Explorer caste, but dabble in Socializing so much that I could be classified as a part of that caste as well.

Achievers are the ones that want Grandmaster, or level 50, or the joy of being the only one that owns every one of a certain author's books (though this last one borders on socializing as well).

Killers, however, exist for the PVP/PK side of things. They are the ones that want player conflict. Often, they are fast levelers and skill-trainers, because only by being the best can they be the best Killer. They most frequently border on Achiever.

Adventurers, by their very description, adventure. They explore, they take risks. I know I'm out there every day discovering new things (I say new, but this is new to me. Important point). How do I know? I maintain a map file with zMud. I know that the overland map exists, and I refer to it quite often. But my map file is my Explorer side, and my Achiever side coming together. I take pride in seeing it grow, I felt a major loss when the file was corrupted and had to be started over.

What I'm asking is, while based on an exaggeration, why aren't more people taking those risks? Why aren't they charging down a wyvern to save a friend's body? Why aren't they diving headlong off their horse to tackle a wemic?

Part of the fun of exploring, at least to me, is taking those risks. There's a reason I travel with my sword out.
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1: ISBN 0-131-01816-7: Designing Virtual Worlds, Richard A. Bartle

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:40 pm

I hate to burst your bubble, but people do go show downing a wyvern for a friend's body.

Waterdeep is a centralized place for most of us to meet up. Unfortunately, it does seem that the "evils" in the game have nothing better to do than to mil around and spy upon the good ones.. and thus, they to flock to Waterdeep.

You want to kick people out of the square? Ride in. Say you need XYZ, have a quest ready to go see, and then do it. Or gather up your posse of your character's friends and tell them that the new hang out isn' the Lucky Drunk, but it's the Gambling house in Berdusk.

People don't stay in Silverymoon and Shadowdale, Westgate after initial character creation because it's boring. They want to explore the world, and the world of FK is not exactly one person VS the quests friendly. And thus, they have to go wher ethe people are.. which is Waterdeep. Sad but true.

If you think socializing in one spot is a problem, make it a challenge to stay out of Waterdeep. Find what you need in other locations... drag your friends along.

Make another city your home turf. I know several people have started up shop and sort of things in cities that are not Waterdeep before. Make a new tavern your buddy's hand out spot.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:24 am

Actually, on several characters I have asked people to venture down into dangerous areas - one mostly being Underdark (I love exploring that place and because I don't remember most of it, it's like finding it all out all over again). I have done so on four characters. Only once did I find a (very small) party willing to go. Those numbers shortly thinned out even more by people having to go.

I'm not saying they don't go, but in comparison I think you will find that the Evils are more inclined to take on dangerous missions.

I don't mean to sound rude or anything Mari, you know I respect you plenty, but there's a huge difference between a Wyvern that can hurt you pretty good in FK and a Dragon that can roast you alive while you feebly swing your sword through the plumes of rancid gas and smoke.

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:37 am

Please keep in mind that a PC's IC motivations for doing (or not doing) things vary widely...as does who they are willing to do them with. (Frankly, there's also an OOC aspect to this, too - styles can clash in exploring an area. Some are slow and meticulous, some fast and efficient.) I'm not sure what PC was doing the asking, or with what objective in mind - but in many cases it's not the risk but rather the reasons that cause a given PC to turn away from or embrace an opportunity at adventure. (OOC limitations on how long one can stay online are also a major factor, for some players.)

Nysan · Post by **Nysan** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:43 am

True enough Raona. The character's motive can be as much an influence on out-of-city travel as player motives. A fine example, a group seeks a priest for their venture and all they can find is...Nysan. Player means, it fits the need...but not many IC would trust their health to the old misfit. Some might seek to leave the group if anyone considered such actions.

Not all refusal of adventuring is simply an OOC matter.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:17 am

Understandable. And definately didn't say there weren't IC or OOC elements attached. I'm just sharing my experiences. I'm sure Admins would vouch that they see more Neutrals/Evils than anywhere near Good-aligned.

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:20 am

To be honest, I don't think there are a lot of people in the game currently with high enough level characters to really be willing to risk their characters deaths to go corpse diving. I really do believe the fact that you can walk down the road and get smucked by a bandit really really really deters people from going rescuing..

However, as one of the more moderate to high level characters... there are very few people Mariela would thumb her nose at. Wyvern or not. It only takes on good shove to get a corpse out of the line of fire....

Japcil · Post by **Japcil** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:34 am

I once dragged two twin gnome's corpses from a Wyvern by throwing some steaks away from them and making myself invisible.

Dapher · Post by **Dapher** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:21 pm

To be frankly honest, I see the goodly people sitting around a lot also. Dapher used to NEVER be in teh city when I first created him. Now that he is quite powerful against NPC, no one adventures, and since people quit adventuring, I had to get him involed in teh CIty Watch to add RP to this character, which in turn straps him down a bit to the Watch. Since so many new characters are detered from adventuring, all the old characters got bored, and frusterated after trying to find an adventuring buddy. (btw Dapher is always up for a good adventure) And yes, there are always limitations because of time diffrence, since this is world wide OOC, and also the fact that all of us have lives, and something else that we like to do sometimes.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:17 pm

I can't help but think the main reasons are as follows:

The rising costs of adventuring versus lowering income.

The heightened amount of time required to gain experience.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I have been slightly wary of adventuring due to these two reasons primarily. I still do it because I'm a risk taker and I like the excitement and pleasure of working with other people to achieve difficult things.

I have died a couple times since the code change and I have been less than happy with the necessity to grind back hours and hours for what I've already achieved. The cost of resurrecting made me feel guilty when others have died or have had to raise me.

Japcil · Post by **Japcil** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:32 pm

Cost of resurrection? Its free, unless some priests are charging ya a big amount.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:34 pm

Components most definately are not free. They are rather expensive. Especially in comparison to ability to generate income.

NPC priests gouge like a major retail store.

Japcil · Post by **Japcil** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:38 pm

Ah, I had to re-read your post, I thought you were talking about xp not components.

Hrosskell · Post by **Hrosskell** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:34 pm

I'm someone who is on both sides of the sword, here. I love to go out and adventure, but there's not a lot I haven't done. While I can agree there aren't many people I feel comfortable with adventuring with, to the harder places, I think it's not from my own snobbishness or selectivity - I met them all the same way I meet everyone: randomly. It just seems there's a lack of motivation to be "good" at skills these days. I don't know if it's the twink-finger being pointed in every direction, or the long process it takes to properly train a character without having that finger pointed. But for the most part, I agree. The adventurers have turned to socializers, and the people who still do it seem content to adventure with their old companions - and why not? ICly and OOCly, it's comfortable.

Nysan · Post by **Nysan** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:36 pm

Selveem wrote:The rising costs of adventuring versus lowering income.

Seriously? I cannot think of one of my characters that has an income vs cost issue. Not discounting Sleveem's claim since I can only work from personal experience, but is this really a problem? My young characters now have gathered many times over the funds my older characters had at their level due to the various new funding options they have access to these days. Even my old misfits like Nysan are covering costs. Am I a fluke and this is a big problem at the moment?

The death and ressurection concern I cannot comment on. Haven't died since my return (came close a few times). Though from gaining experience on my younger characters, I can imagine the hesitation an exp loss through death can be a problem for some. And no one asks Nysan to ressurect someone....no idea why that is.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:43 pm

In comparison to the past, yes. Economics are not exactly nice. For instance, on my wizard I have to 'grind' mid-level areas so he can recover the costs of repairs he had to pay for. Magical spidersilk isn't cheap, I can assure you. Also, I've heard the archmage robes are ridiculously expensive.

In the past, when you killed something they dropped their armor. Oftentimes this was worth like 6 plat if you had high charisma. Now, most things with armor that expensive either drops only once and never again until next MUD reset or auto-junks its own equipment.

Also, places where you can get a decent price for selling stuff generally can only buy 1 or two items - maximum.

Nysan · Post by **Nysan** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:51 pm

Oddly enough, was not even thinking about armor/weapon reselling when considering character income. Was thinking of other means, some that inculde other players. Perhaps that is part of the problem? Some people are only considering what they can sell to vendors to generate income?

My character use their trades, skills, and the ever useful "I'll pay you for this item anytime you bring them to me" NPCs.

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:58 am

With the extra bandits and the new low-level quests, beginning PCs, in Waterdeep anyway, most certainly have more access to coin than when I started two years ago.

At the same time, it does seem to have become harder for mid-level characters to "farm" like they used to. I have a hard time believing mid-level characters can't break even, but it may well have gotten harder to save up for something big.