Reviewing game organisations: The Spy Guild

Kelemvor · Post by **Kelemvor** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:43 pm

Our Help File wrote:The Spy Guild
Old sages say that magic and weapons are only tools that are not good
or bad in themselves. The same could be said about the roguish skills related to stealth: some might use them to murder and steal; others might use them to gather information and break up plots.
The aim of the spies guild is to gather and train those rogues who choose the second option. It is very understandable that there is no known headquarters for this guild. You generally don't contact the spies guild, they contact you.

Kelemvor · Post by **Kelemvor** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:00 pm

This organisation is something of an anamoly as it is not based upon canon sources. It does, however, have a place in the game as it is currently the only area (I believe) where a non-evil aligned rogue can join a thief guild that does not require thievery or murder as a pre-requisite.

The organisation has a current leader, but I have no real clue on the membership as there is no related forum and the ethos of the guild is very much one of secrecy. It is supported by a small hidden area with several trainers and quartermasters and could be given a higher profile if we so chose.

I've no opinion either way on this one, so all thoughts gratefully received.

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:20 pm

This could be interesting, as a "neutral" organisation. It might provide roleplay with good organisations and evil ones, by selling both information.

Saying that, it could be kept as a thief guild for non-evil aligned rogues, without any aims of its own. Then the rogues could join whatever organisation they chose, with the training given by the Spy Guild.

I don't have any strong opinions, but I'd probably lean more towards removing it as an organisation with independent, long-term aims, and keeping it as a guild. That way, you can have evil spies joining the Zhentarim, good spies joinin other good organisations (etc).

Just my thoughts!

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:49 pm

As a player who has had the priviledge of knowing two members of this Spy Guild (one of which still has a character in the guild, I believe), I really do suggest keeping this one.

There is actually a LOT of RP opportunity here. What the Spies actually do would most likely be the perogative of the leader, but I could see plenty of ideas:

Example:

Waterdeep needs covert information on the dealings of Zhentil Keep - Is unable to provide their own representatives for fear that they may be taken captive. Does not want to risk the Harpers (or, perhaps the Harpers may not even approve!), so they turn to the Spy guild.

The Spy guild would likely be made up mostly of rogues (bards/thieves) and wizards (mostly transmuters and illusionists, obviously). As they have no real information on Waterdeep's dealings or inner-workings, even if they are captured and tortured, they wouldn't be able to provide insight to the Zhentarim of Waterdeep even when bespelled by Zhentarim Enchanters.

Because this guild can be anyone at any time and because there is so much opportunity for RP gain, I think this is a very decent guild to keep around.

Kelemvor · Post by **Kelemvor** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:57 pm

Though not explicitly stated in the help file or my write up, I believe this guild is for non-evil alignments only. I'd ask for someone to correct me if I'm wrong, but all its members are probably busy spying on the other forum.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:16 pm

That's correct.

Though that may have been because of the previous leader. I could just as easily see this changing on a per-leader basis.

Aegir · Post by **Aegir** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:43 pm

This was actually one of the larger and more active orgs way back when, so the fact that it does have a place in the world should be evident. I say it does have a niche to fill. However...

I think it could also just as easily be made a branch of the Harpers. They have similar goals, and I don't think it'd hurt either org if they were both essentially the same org, just different branches.

So, my vote would be to make it part of the Harpers, but if that falls through, leaving it as an org option is fine.

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:50 pm

I've wanted a character in this one forever, just never someone running/recruiting for it. ;) Keepkeeeeep.

This is one of the best ways to be a good aligned thief. :D

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:26 pm

The helpfile states that it is for non-evil rogues. Is this a rigid rule or are we going to permit other classes in here as well? I think every class has something to add to this. Even fighters, while not sneaky, can add their skills to such a guild. I'd say that with the immense RP potential of this org, we'd be hurting ourselves if we didn't keep it.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:32 am

I like it as an opportunity for non-evil rogue/thieves. They don't have one, they deserve one.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:42 am

To answer as much as I can...

Dalvyn and I have plans already in discussion to revamp this area, try to flesh it out with a few more quests, perhaps, and yes, we do want to drive it forward.

As far as the ethos is concerned, yes, it is, plain and simple, a good-aligned thieves' guild. There is a need for such, and a place for it. For what it could be paralleled to, canon wise, there are two sources:

One, of course, is the Harpers, a benevolent organization, in which many of the rank and file are rogues. No other guild in FK's realm could feed the rogues into said organization, because all of the other guilds would be anathema to the purposes of the Harpers. How much tie is actually between the spies guild, and the Harpers organization, is highly classified IC information.

There is another inspiration for the direction the spies are going. That of the organization headquartered out of Waterdeep known as the Red Sashes. This is a vigilante group, that operates below the radar of the law, to deal with situations that the Lawful Good mindset cannot. They are opposed to the WD Watch, for this very reason... in Piergieron's mind, they are subverting the law, and are as criminal as a mugger. Not to say there couldn't be LG members in said guild, but the tactics employed by the guild are always going to be a little less than up to Waterdhavian standards of law.

Alignment restrictions are for the align to be > 0, ie, true neutral and up. Chaotic Neutral, as I recall, is not admitted, the main reason being an OOC consideration that too often thieves have used CN to play evil without an aura.

There is, in fact, a guildmaster for the spies guild, and he is semi-active. Though he has some things occupying his schedule for now, he will be geared up to start recruiting again as the area support and designs for the guild are completed.

For the good aligned rogues out there... yes, he WILL be finding you, but he's picky. There are examples of "good" rogues that will not impress him. Those of the "I only steal from evil people and mobs" lot are not the impressive ones. Those who have gotten caught stealing from good and neutral aligned mobiles and/or are demonstrated klepto-thieves are not even in consideration. Let the word around the cities and villages spread of your good deeds done for the goodly folk, and craftiness as a forward scout in your adventures, and the spies will be looking for you. Sadly, he has gone looking for a couple he knows of, and they were never out in public when they were on the who list.

Caelyvar · Post by **Caelyvar** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:36 pm

I love the idea of this guild, but I have a point to raise.

Why does it have to be exclusivly Theif? I suspect theives, I dont suspect the priest on the corner so I am more likely to talk to him and give him information.

Though in the case of caely I tell everyone everything

But I digress.

I might not know how the code or guilds work, but in this case, i think it would be fun if ANYONE could be a spy and not just a theif.

Just a thought.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:03 pm

Good question Caelyvar. I think the reasoning behind making it a "thief only" guild is that for a good rogue to join the thief class (and get thief skills, etc.) there really aren't any options other than the existing thief guilds that require quests that might be in opposition to the PCs ethos. By having the spy guild, we provide the good rogue the opportunity to gain skills to be used in a different way. If it were open to all classes, the good rogues no longer has something they can claim as their own.

That's my understanding at least. Kel will correct me if I'm wrong, he's good at that.

Caelyvar · Post by **Caelyvar** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:56 pm

That is good reasoning as well.

But I suppose I just have to ask, as an RP thing, could there be a portion set for individuals who are not theives? Have the trainers only kick into their thief speil if the character is a theif, and have it go into a non theif speil if they do not?

Maybe its too hard, I really dont know. I dont know how the coding works. I just know I have a new character who would have a blast in this guild who is not a theif.

I guess I was thinking of these guilds as purely rp, I didnt realize this is a venue for skills and stuff to be gained.

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:21 am

I think the spy guild should become nuetral across the board. Open to the range of NE to NG characters. If anything for the sake of balance. Goods have the harpers, evils have the zhents, the spy guild would be the balancer allowing the chance to play both sides on the end. After all it is a spy guild, not a boyscout guild. If you have a good spy then join the harpers theyre more akin to the good ethos anyway. Same goes to evils, let them join the zhents. I would like to see it become more of a useful organization rather than just another guild for thieves. It should also be an extremely secular organziation. Faith is fine, but it should not get in the way of duties or mission. It should also not be limited to rouges either, in fact It should be something more akin to the harpers or zhents, a little bit of trainers, items, equipment for everyone not biased solely towards thieves... (and please enough with the all black shadowy gear to whoever is coding it

Black makes you more of a target then walking around with a symbol of bane around your neck!)

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:31 am

Just a FYI.

When I built the Spies' Guild, it was intended simply as an area that would allow non-evil rogues from upgrading to thieves, nothing more.

ICly, what is a non-evil thief? That is, what is a person who pick locks, remove traps, move stealthily, pick up things from people, and "fight dirty" without the self-serving goals of the average thief? One of the most obvious answer is ... a spy.

Since spies are naturally secretive, I didn't want a recruiter mob to just openly ask all non-evil rogues "Hey there, wanna become a spy?", because it made little sense. That is why recruitment became PC-based.

It was never meant to be an organization any more than the Larrikins or the whatever-their-name-was in Faerdale.

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:59 pm

I guess my comment to Dalyvn about the nature of this organization is this...

Why have an organization that's sole purpose is to shell out skills and get someone "Thiefed?"

At that point, why not automate the system? If there is no support to actually USE the organization for anything BUT skilling someone..... what'st he point. THey could send in an application and get their first lock picks from the IM's or a token to enter an automated club house and we don't need a Spy guild at all.

If it's an organization, it should have some connections to RP. Especially given the HIGH empasis on RP that this game has. ALL of them should have connections to the PC plot. If they don't what's the point of having a leader of the organization? Automate it. The Bards seem to be able to get their junk from a more automated system, why not the thieves? (Not that I agree with the automation of the Bards.. but on the other hand... they at least can get their bard status without too much hassle. You just submit and wait pretty much. It's fairly non RP intensive.)

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:55 pm

I'm not pushing for it to be an organization. I actually think it shouldn't be one.

Even if something is not an organization, it CAN have PC members, leaders, and so on. Actually, my original ideas was to make the recruitment PC-based, but not to have a leader. That is, any member can bring a new PC in the guild; it does not have to be the leader. That's more or less similar to what is happening with rangers, except that, for the spies' guild, you only need someone to bring you in the first time.

In my mind, the Spies' Guild has never been and should not be an organization. But it can keep the PC-based recruitment (though it would most likely require more active non-evil rogues). Of course, the fact that most people reduce rogues to "I steal things" does not help.

Echet · Post by **Echet** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:25 am

I like the Spy Guild better as a guild than as an organization. I am afraid, though, I cannot posit a segway-rich list of ideas on why. I can only offer my opinions and ideas.

In my opinion, it is granted that almost anyone in a highly realistic sense could call themselves a "spy", thinking so defeats the purpose of having classes in the first place. The presence of classes in the first place means that there are different kinds of people in the world, which could clearly include non-evil rogues, such as thieves. Other ways I can understand a non-evil rogue, however, could be as a sort of fighter who does not adhere to the strict fighter's regimen of martial training, and is willing to use their mobility to the highest maximum potential while fighting a little dirty at the same time; a treasure seeker, who really does not steal from others, but rather plunders fantastic treasures and dungeons, the skills necessary for which could really only be attained through the joining of a well-established guild or; a vigilante or simple helping hand, who understands that while the law has its place in society at large, it often prevents true justice from taking place, and so to fill the missing niche in justice created by law, must take it into their own hands whenever called upon...

All of these types of people could easily be rogues, classed thief, but would have a difficult time being evil or, for that matter, typical cutthroats and kleptomaniacs. Therefore, I think the guild is necessary.

And the Spies Guild does intrinsically not encourage senseless delinquency and lawlessness by its members. They are supposed to be reserved, capable rogues who can keep their real identity a secret while waiting for the guild's call to action. It is not all about getting "Thiefed".

If we are going to keep the guild, and gets some fleshing out, I'd like to see the members of the guild running some relavitvely simple but important errands across the many cities and sites of the game, a la the Express Delivery company, in which the importance and difficulty of the missions begins to grow over time, with the eventual rising of a character's rank within the guild. Cover stories may also be a good thing to include, but that's more RP than code... escorts? Attending parties and other functions to derive information, where the character's success in the quest may be based on asking the questions outlined in the briefing? I don't know. I'm just throwing out ideas because I really like the idea of this guild.

Also, and this is slightly non-sequitor, what happens to those characters that are already in the guild if we decide against having the spies guild?

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:54 pm

I have no doubt that we are keeping the Spies guild... as Dalvyn said, it is a guild, in the hard code sense, much more than a player organization, This is not to say that player RP could not arise and revolve around the guild should there be a member base to do so, but its FIRST priority is to give a place for good-aligned rogues to become guilded into thieves, simply because a rogue, in FK speak, is not the same as a rogue in tabletop, a thief is, as far as the skillset goes. It is, in short, an IC way for the OOC requirement of becoming guilded for a rogue to get their full compliment of skills.

We do of course, welcome the suggestions as far as ideas for building on and fleshing out the quests for the guild. That is a task the builder council has on our plate, and the little seeds of ideas will help us use up the quest bits available in the guild area.