levels below ten

[Orplar]

In in response to Selveem..No no no.. No..
I am saying 80 is way too much..I would prefer it be much, much, much less..
much.

[Selveem]

I hear you, you believe the travel wouldn't be so long and boring if you could afford a caravan. But it is not true, sadly. As a new player i haven't had any problem to afford a caravan, but waiting the caravan took as long as travelling by foot.
Travelling, exploring the world is extremly boring. Less lag on movement, cheaper recall and fly scrolls would improve the game playability.
Insane time sink usually doens't make muds better.

I think I'm in love. Do you have a female version of yourself?

LOL, but in all seriousness; I agree. Pockets of lag per movement square is extremely tedious and annoying. I really wish it was just one of those things we could just 'ignore' like when you're talking to someone and the hour changes after just two comments.

I have never been in favor if making movement (whether geographically or character progressive) take longer. I, myself, sometimes am short of time and just want to get something done before I forget and have run out of time because movement from 'room' to 'room' in the wilderness has an exponentially increased amount of lag.

One thing I would like changed specifically for lowbies is a way to generate positive wealth for the MUD as a whole. The most obvious is that they can get feathers and wood from killing the dummies. I'm not sure why that was put into place, but I think it was a very great idea. I have heard of wizards paying generous amounts for high numbers of feathers from low level players in particular.

As for progression from 1-10, it can be a rather daunting task and increasing usefulness of new characters is another way that we can begin to mix even new players more firmly into our ranks and make them more comfortable as our interaction between old players and new players increases.

I would also suggest allowing players after a certain level to begin accepting students with which he or she can ICly train over the course of time and perhaps give them exp from time to time (aside from the reward command which can rarely be used and does not give enough exp [note: that is my opinion, I do not know the actual code bonus exp it gives, but it doesn't seem to do anything like the helpfile claims]).

[Nysan]

Not just roleplay. Guilds. School of wonder. Markana's village, bard college. Faith managers.

It's not going to change the entirity of where people RP by making it so hard for levels 1-10.

So true. Waterdeep is a code draw as much as an RP draw with much of the required guild and faith coding around there for many of the classes. I can recall travel from ZK to Waterdeep on a lowbie wizard alt for training/guilding, 2 and a half hour trip for the little fellow. Worse still since I turned him into a necromancer, but that was a personal choice.

[Dalvyn]

The caravans are not there to speed up travel. They are there to allow groups to peacefully roleplay and/or talk during journeys - something that is harder to do when descriptions of the wilderness rooms scroll by quickly on the screen and when you have to face movement lag.

As for waiting for a caravan taking too long, the exact hour when they depart is displayed clearly on signs in the caravan field. You do not have to wait there till the caravan leaves; you can go and meet people, interact, heck roleplay even while you wait, then move to the caravan field 1 hour before the set time.

[Lathander]

Personally, I like that it takes time to get from one city to another. That way, the cities don't just seem extensions of themselves. Rangers and druids gain an advantage that sets the apart. The teleporting wizard has a advantage. Viva la Difference! I, for one, would not enjoy a mud where everyone got the same thing. How boring.

[Oghma]

I also found that for caravans, if you wait outside, do things like talk or run errands, go to market, repair items, buy an read a new book, sell some loot, have lunch and various other things that the caravan will actually arrive at a quicker rate even though it is still traveling at the same speed. There is nothing wrong with just standing and waiting, it is boring though, so you can do a variety of things to take up your time while this is going on. Rp honestly speeds most things up in my opinion, waiting or camping is more of a drawn out pause.

[Kregor]

There are problems with levels 1-10 that I think we have to weigh in consideration against other factors on FK:

Firstly, since FK deals with 50 levels, where a typical D&D tabletop game deals with 20, we have a factor of 2.5 we should be considering.

All the creatures are proportionally scaled in their level. A kobold or goblin is a level 1HD creature in tabletop D&D, it's typically a level 5-8 creature on the mud, so right there, you're raising the standard of what a beginning character should be able to do, based on one of the first challenges a character would face.

Characters continue to have hitpoint gain until level 50, so to reflect that, all the spell damages are scaled by 2.5. This means even the low level spells are dealing 2.5 times the damage of their tabletop counterpart.

We scale spell progression, skill progression and ultimately, with the new combat system, the Base Attack Bonus over 50 levels instead of 20.

This and more taken into consideration we shouldn't be looking at a level 10 character as a 10th level character, in D&D terms, it would be a 3-4th level character.

Now, I was a conservative DM when I led gaming campaigns, and maybe it would take a few weeks of 4-hour a week gaming sessions to get past that level 3 mark, but you also didn't have to mindlessly grind to get those levels... and the challenge levels of the current areas and quests on FK, combined with the fact that the SECOND you group with another character more than 5 levels higher, you get effectively NO experience, means that you end up stagnating at lower levels with these characters. Adding more areas of interest and things to do isn't going to matter when they run out of new things to do and they're STILL not past level 10.

As it is right now, it is FAR easier for a high level player to gain exp to level than a lowbie. It is totally in reverse of what it should be, and counter-intuitive. When I group one of my higher level characters with a lowbie and take them to a place to adventure and level up, when I end up gaining exp and their little "time to level" feedback hasn't changed, it's frustrating to them, and I understand it completely.

The scale needs to be changed, to allow for faster relative progression at lower levels than higher, this would make the population bell curve at the 30-level range. That should be the goal, IMO

[Orplar]

Nicely said. I didn't know that was how the scaling worked but it makes sense.

As does the proposed solution. So, once again, Nicely Said.

[Dalvyn]

I disagree, Kregor.

As a "conservative" DM too, I think that there can be fun in playing low level characters and that there is no reason to ignore those low levels or make them fly by. There needs to be interesting activities to keep those low level busy and let them raise in level though, yes.

If we just change it so people fly through the first 10 levels, we might as well save the effort and simply bring all new characters to level 10 directly after they have chosen their hometown.

We might need to give starting characters many more move points, maybe some more hit points, so they are able to survive walking the wilderness road. We might need to create more low-level quests and areas, yes. But we shouldn't just discard those low levels. There can be fun in facing challenges when the biggest spell you can cast is "acid arrow".

[Vibius]

A idea could be restrict the maximum level reachable in the newbie area to 5
which is a level that you reach in a reasonable amount of time and when you reach it the weaponmaster/trainer hints you places that are looking for young
adventurers, that would be mini-areas/quests specially designed for young characters which would contain IC information useful to new players, like corpses hinting why they died, descriptions in rooms stating where is safe to rest and where not and things like that.

[Toronar]

This is your mud, you can do whatever you want, but why are you trying to prove it is not boring, when it is and everybody know it is. That's rather pointless.

"There is nothing wrong with just standing and waiting"
Yes, there is something very wrong with it: it is wasting your time, what you could spend on amusement. If you want just stading and waiting, you can do that at the marketsquare alredy.

"Personally, I like that it takes time to get from one city to another"
This is why the movement points system are. You walk, you get tired, you rest. So it takes time. The lag system just gives one thing to this: the boredom.

Let me summarize: less lag on movement, much cheaper recall scrolls and fly scrolls makes travelling interesting, so makes mud more exciting.

About leveling.
Well, there is a very good, interesting and working system for muds with maximum level. It needs some time to code it, but it worths the effort.
Mobs need diminishing returns: if you kill the same mob again and again, you gain less xp. If you want to reach high level, you need to know and visit a lots of different area (areas, where you are still able to get xp), and if you want to reach level 50, you probably need to visit the highest and most dangerous areas with a well equipped group . This naturally makes people to do interaction and roleplay instead of boring, inefficient grinding.

Try to read this as a constructive criticism.

[Kelemvor]

This is your mud, you can do whatever you want, but why are you trying to prove it is not boring, when it is and everybody know it is. That's rather pointless.

Some discussions tend to be more emotive than others. Whilst no-one has a problem with an opinion being strongly expressed, can I suggest that choice of wording is given a higher priority.

[Levine]

Personally, I am perfectly perfectly fine with the lag. If there is no lag, there is hardly a point in me buying a mount, or having a fly spell on, except for saving my movement points.

Can I thus safely say that if there is no lag..

mount = fly spell?

That doesn't seem right.

Besides, how would having NO lag make travelling more interesting if I'm going to reach Tantras from Waterdeep in less than 1 minute?

Next.. I feel that RP is generated when, say, my warrior wants a recall potion from a wizard.

Cheaper recall scrolls and potions? No-no to me. I feel that it diminishes the purpose of having brew and scribe for wizards and priests, what with recall spells being one of the most useful spells in the game. Besides, it helps the wizzies and priests earn money.

-gissy

[Selveem]

While Toronar has the same acidic tongue I generally get grumbled at for, he's only saying what many others are thinking.

To make something more encumbersome when it is unnecessary is a step in the wrong direction.

While we (not including I in this instance, mind you) as a community may not agree with the tone, criticism can be harsh. And, as a friend of mine said 'many times it should be.'

We have a community that not only supports each other, but also moves to encompass those looking to join said community. As such, we'll have plenty of fresh criticism.

I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers, but fortune favors the bold! The tip-toeing around this subject has been deflected and made to look seemingly pointless. I think it takes strong opinions to be made evident sometimes to convey that one feels very strongly about something.

The suggestions to fix the issue were also covered in his post. I think that was also helpful.

[Sairaven]

I ran a subscription to City of Heroes for a while, and they have a wonderful sidekick / exemplar system, in which a higher-level character can 'sidekick' a lower level character and do away with the XP penalties for grouping.

Alternately, a lowbie can 'exemplar' a higher-level character, who then drops down effectively to the lowbie's level, and they can hunt in lower level areas without killing XP.

These two commands allow for more grouping without having to worry about XP drain like you normally would.

Examples

Sairaven is a level 29 fighter. He meets Bob the level 10 priest in Market Square, and they decide to go do a sewer run. Bob types 'exemplar Sairaven' and Sairaven types agree to confirm, and his effective level becomes 10. Hit points, Attack Rolls, etc all adjust down. Extra feats are not lost, but become inactive until the group disbands or Sairaven types unexemplar.

Later, Sairaven and Bob want to go to Irondeep. Sairaven has returned to his normal level, but wants to bring Bob along so they group and Sairaven types sidekick Bob (to which Bob types agree). Bob's effective level shoots up to 29, but he does not gain any additional feats or learned spells/skills. He gains more hit points, memorization slots, and attack roll modifiers, all of which go away when he or Sairaven types unsidekick.

Clearly, there stands to be room for abuse, but I think it is something that would promote more grouping with mixed levels. There would need to be some fine tuning (how do you determine which feats go inactive, for instance), but since most skills are on a level-based system already the Exemplar system would simply deactivate any that fall above the effective level.

[Kelemvor]

I think it takes strong opinions to be made evident sometimes to convey that one feels very strongly about something.

I am in total agreement with this sentiment, it's one of the key principles on which we run these forums.

While Toronar has the same acidic tongue I generally get grumbled at for, he's only saying what many others are thinking.

This too is probably not in dispute since you're not the only ones posting to say it, but what prompted my post was the way in which those strong feelings were expressed.

As a member of the Admin staff I am expected to choose my words carefully and give an unbiased factual response to any posts, PMs, e-mails or complaints for which I am responsible.

The reason I disagree with the other sentiments you expressed in that post , though, is that it leaves little room for unbiased factual replies.

Thus, using the criteria of strong expression and acid-tongue you advocate as a sometimes neceesary evil I could say

Selveem, your posts are often little more than self-serving whines about yoru past treatment that do nothing to contribute to the MUD and more often than not just provoke an antagonistic response which detracts from the post or puts other players off from contributing

or

Toronar, you're probably not used to a free game where change comes slowly due to its volunteer nature. The instant gratification you seem to seek is probably more in line with pay to play games.

Now that's tough love
But it's also cheap and hurtful and not in keeping with the spirit of this game. A game I have played for a number of years and thoroughly enjoyed. A game which I still enjoy, despite the many admin pressures.

I'll keep my moderating tendencies to myself for a bit
But it's worth recognising that the other 99.9% of the playerbase are postign often strong opinion without wording it in a way that gets me to meddling

[Lathander]

Ned

It's only level 8, in 50 hours at this point now.

I am confused. I watched a player get to L5 in 5 hours yesterday. Does it really take 45 hours to get from L3 to L8? I'm not being sarcastic, I really want to know if those last three levels are the issue.

Selveem

To make something more encumbersome when it is unnecessary is a step in the wrong direction.

Of course that's true. However, I don't see anyone suggesting making things more cumbersome. We've only given our opinion on the way things are now. Some want things made easier and some want things left the same. This is a lenghty discussion, but I don't recall seeing anyone advocate making something MORE cumbersome. As always, it is possible that I missed that comment. If I did, please direct me to it.

Selveem

While we (not including I in this instance, mind you) as a community may not agree with the tone, criticism can be harsh. And, as a friend of mine said 'many times it should be.'

There is no reason for it to be harsh. It can be direct. It can be honest. There is no reason for the tone to be harsh. I agree completely with Kelemvor's comments. All of our community is entitled to their opinion and ENCOURAGED to express it. But we are a community and our goal is the most balanced mud for play styles. Not the acquiesence to one group or another, but our best efforts at balance. Polite, passionate discussion is fine. There is no need to be harsh to express an opinion.

Selveem

We have a community that not only supports each other, but also moves to encompass those looking to join said community. As such, we'll have plenty of fresh criticism.

Great. We WANT more people. With that comes more ideas and criticism. Stated in the best interest of mud balance and accomodations of differing playstyles, we welcome such criticism, maturely and politely offered.

Selveem

The tip-toeing around this subject has been deflected and made to look seemingly pointless. I think it takes strong opinions to be made evident sometimes to convey that one feels very strongly about something.

Tip-Toeing? I see no evidence of that. Do you mean then that if someone isn't being overtly rude, they are tip-toeing? When I read through everyone's posts here I read opinions and positions clearly stated. I see that on both sides of the issue. Please don't confuse politeness with tip-toeing. One can state their opinion strongly without being harsh or rude to others. That's what I see when I read here. Where do you see tip-toeing?

Selveem

The suggestions to fix the issue were also covered in his post. I think that was also helpful.

No one siad they weren't covered. I think everyone can appreciate such posts where not only is a criticism given, but a suggestion offered. I agree that such was the case with Toronar's post. The only suggestion that was made, and it was done politely by Kel I might add, was that we all try to be aware of the tone that we use. Criticism and suggestion can both be given without a poor tone. Also, inherent in your choice of words "suggestions to fix the issue" imply that the issue is broken. It is not broken. There are differences in opinion as to the way things should be. You espouse one view, someone else espouses another. It doesn't mean anything is "broken" and needs to be "fixed."

Kelevmor

Some discussions tend to be more emotive than others. Whilst no-one has a problem with an opinion being strongly expressed, can I suggest that choice of wording is given a higher priority.

While Kel cited Toronar's quote, I think he says it very succinclty and that it should apply to all of us. I also want to add that we are in NO WAY upset at the content of Toronar's post and encourage him (and everyone else) to continue speaking their minds on any issue you find important. We just want to keep things polite. There is no reason to be otherwise.

Dalvyn

If we just change it so people fly through the first 10 levels, we might as well save the effort and simply bring all new characters to level 10 directly after they have chosen their hometown.

We might need to give starting characters many more move points, maybe some more hit points, so they are able to survive walking the wilderness road. We might need to create more low-level quests and areas, yes. But we shouldn't just discard those low levels. There can be fun in facing challenges when the biggest spell you can cast is "acid arrow".

I think these comments hit the nail squarely on the head. I'd rather see us brainstorm ways to make those early levels more fun and less boring than to just wisk folks through to L10.

More movement points earlier is a great idea. You still have the lag from moving over differing terrain, but you can go further without being tired. Personally, I don't see why you wouldn't get full movement points at L1. I see why you get better with a sword with more practice or a spell with more study. I see where levels play an important role in things. But walking? Moving? Keep the lag of differetn terrain, give all move points starting at L1 and have them not change for the duration of the PC unless CON is increased.

Low-level quest areas! Brilliant! Who DOESN'T want more quests, more places to explore? Especially for low level PCs. Now for the involvement part, those things need builders. I haven't built anything in a long time. I've been too involved. But imms aren't the only builders. MOST of our builders aren't imms. It isn't particularly hard. I was very nervous of my first area. But the more you work with it, the more intuitive it becomes. And FUN!. I know many of you have been DMs. Have a favorite low-level area you built on pena dn paper? Maybe now is the time to transfer that to our world.

It sounds like a tweaking of the caravan system might be in order. From my own experience, the time spent on the caravan, while lengthy, is fine. I'd like to see them run more regularly, possilby double their departure times. Same with ships.

[Orplar]

Just another suggestion for the lower levels. From 5 to 8 takes a little longer, and from 8 to 10 takes forever.

So, something I have been exerpiriencing on my higher-lvl chars is that the more damage they do during a fight(more hits they land), the more xp they recieve.

Assuming it to be the same case for lower levels, would it be possible to increase the hit points of lower level mobs, decrease defense rollers or something along those llines? Allowing the lower levels to land more effective hits throughtout the duration of the fight, without making the mob more difficult to kill?

Just a thought

[Toronar]

I was level 5 in 3-4 hour, lvl 8 in 30-40, lvl 10 in.. about 50-60 hours.
First of all, i don't gain xp in the newbie area after the first 5-6 level. In other areas i either don't gain coins, either getting killed.

"t sounds like a tweaking of the caravan system might be in order. From my own experience, the time spent on the caravan, while lengthy, is fine. I'd like to see them run more regularly, possilby double their departure times. Same with ships."
Yes, this is exactly what i thought, to run more regularly.

For levine:
All i understood is: You like lag, because it guarantees advantage for you (due to fly spell) over other player. So lag is ok, until you doesn't suffer.
"Next.. I feel that RP is generated when, say, my warrior wants a recall potion from a wizard. "
Let me rephrase:
"Next.. I feel that PLATINUM is generated when, say, a warrior wants a recall potion from my wizard. "
/sarcasm off

While farming, grinding is not tolerated, everything is done for make it necessery?

[Mele]

You're not really into making friends where you game, are you, Toronar? ;) Good rule of thumb, don't call people out to bash their OPINIONS. This is discussion. Disagree, don't make fun of. ;) The more you bash other people and whine, the more often the good old scroll button will be used to pass over your posts.

When I speak about the time it takes to move from one city to another it has positively nothing to do with the lag. It has to do with my basically doing this..

e e e e e sl afk

*go make sandwich* *peer at stamina, still not full* *go eat sandwich*

Etc.


I'd be lying if I said the time it took wasn't ridiculous. But it's not because I want to time to be reduced to what it was before, it's because I think nearing 100 hours for your first ten levels - while there is so much danger and time in travelling that low leveled is really a killjoy. It's a pain to work an hour to walk somewhere, just to die and be scooted back to the newbie temple you're from. But even then, that's not the pain pain. What is, is you lose EVERYTHING.

I'd like to suggest this:

If below level 10, and you die you:

a: Do not lose your exp, it's tough to gain and that's fine, but like I said. This will absolutely kill your motivation travelling and dying.

b: When you are put back into the newbie temple, it is with all your stuff. We WANT people to start other places than Waterdeep, right? That's not really working out with how travelling and death during a slow curve of exp gain is working.

c: Pump the exp gain for some sewers. Sewers are supposed to be AFTER dummies which is generally after level 10? Why are they giving me less exp than dummies?

d: Put back the worth message to %. It's much more motivating watching %'s to go up than waiting for words to change. I'm not even sure why this was changed but I never truely understood why.

My newbie years, the first character I played a ton, I infact, got yelled at for being level 9 and having over 500 hours and made to go level, because it was potential abuse of the recall. I have little problem sitting below 10 for hours, I do have a problem not being able to travel below 10 at all, while it's forced to sit there for hours.