CN and Silverymoon

[Dalvyn]

This has happened before, but seems to be happening again recently, so I thought I would post about it here.

The in-game wards of Silverymoon prevent evil characters from entering the city. ICly, in FK, the wards grant all guards the ability to detect evil and chase people with evil intents outside of the city. Code-wise, it affects all those who have chosen 'evil' as their alignment and can be easily cheated by selecting for example "Chaotic Neutral" while playing evil and hanging off with evil.

This is especially common amongst wizards who want access to the trainers and the guilds of Silverymoon, but this does not make this right.

If you intend to play an evil wizard, who is going to hang with evil characters, share their deeds and ethos, and/or follow an evil deity, you should choose EVIL as your alignment. The fact that evil is not allowed in Silverymoon is not an excuse to choose CN instead while still playing evil.

At this point, I am unsure how to react with regards to CN wizards who have obviously used this trick.

I do not buy the "excuse" that there are no other transmuter/invoker guilds currently. This does not mean that it's fine to choose CN while playing evil.

My first reaction was to have an IC roleplay where the guilds of Silverymoon would ally to set up a ritual that would create some sort of magical backlash in the mind of all those who have abused their trust (with permanent reductions in Intelligence, loss of spellcasting abilities and knowledge, or both as consequences). But while thinking it through, I got stuck with the justification part: how could those evil characters (behaviour-wise evil, code-wise CN) bypass the wards the Silverymoon? That makes no sense, and therein lies the abuse.

Since I can't think up of any IC ways to deal with those OOC abuses, the only other solution I can think of is simply to delete/reset those characters.

Comments and ideas welcome.

[Moloch]

I think this problem should be dealt with just like any other kind of code abuse, because that is all that it is. There are plenty of ways for those that wish to play evil to get the skills and spells that they desire, even if they are not currently available to us. All it takes is one devoted enough to build that which the game is lacking. I think whatever you have to do to deal with this will be accepted by the rest of the playerbase.

[Oghma]

I agree, this kind of abuse is not an accident, it is usually done willfully to get around code and rules. It should be approached with an ooc response.

[Mele]

I feel like there's a line here -

I personally have a CN follower of Umberlee, who attended the bards school in Silverymoon.

Did I make with that alignment to be evil? No. Have I ever behaved evil? No. Visited Zhentil Keep to sing, yes. Visited Waterdeep to sing, yes. The city most of her time is spent is in Berdusk. Doesn't keep any friends of either persuasion because she's CN, and doesn't give a damn to either of their causes. Behaved in an evil manner, making threats, being obstructive, etc, no. A follower of Umberlee who follows out of one of the most FR common reasons to follow, fear of the seas turned into respect.

So then...

There's that wizard that makes himself CN. Goes to Silverymoon to become a transmuter. Begins to spam disinigrate people. Evil roleplay, evil god, etc.

So where do we fix this line? I know I'm not the only person that plays CN unevil.

*edit Plus, I have just remembered a very well played CN gnome that most players would completely think was CG at the very least. :)

[Vibius]

While I think that a neutral follower of an evil deity is possible although really very uncommon and something that should be applied for, I think that associating often with followers of evil deities is plainly evil.

Taking a look at the dogma of most evil deities is enough to realize that someone who associates with people that live with those standards is anything but neutral.

[Selveem]

The in-game wards of Silverymoon prevent evil characters from entering the city. ICly, in FK, the wards grant all guards the ability to detect evil and chase people with evil intents outside of the city. Code-wise, it affects all those who have chosen 'evil' as their alignment and can be easily cheated by selecting for example "Chaotic Neutral" while playing evil and hanging off with evil.

I know normally we don't cite examples of bad roleplays, so asking for an example here would be useless. I can, however, speak for multiple CN characters who have been told 'OMG you're evil because you have an evil sword' despite the fact that OMG he has a good one too!

I've been told that eating the organs of enemies, even cooked, is an evil trait. Hmm, study history. I don't think that is so in all cases.

I've been told that because you commit an evil deed, that makes you an evil person? Hardly. Lying is one of the traits of 'evil' characters, yet every single Harper would have to be 'evil' for that to be universal.

I think, for the most part, this threat is exaggerated. Perhaps I don't see it all, but based on what I have seen and how different staff members have reacted to some of the things I have done... if it is in any way indicative towards what is being discussed, I say until clear, precise RULES are in place for each alignment as to what they can or can't do, this situation will not change..

To me, CN is not Evil, nor Good. They are both. The eternal flip-floppers. Just like Tempus, they are likely to take one side at one point and another at a different point.

If these are the people that are 'too dangerous for Silverymoon,' I say just keep us out and be done with it. But, unless they are performing evil deeds in Silverymoon itself, then I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be welcome.

If you intend to play an evil wizard, who is going to hang with evil characters, share their deeds and ethos, and/or follow an evil deity, you should choose EVIL as your alignment. The fact that evil is not allowed in Silverymoon is not an excuse to choose CN instead while still playing evil.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. But remember a few evil deeds does not make one completely evil. Just as surely as a few good deeds do not purify one's soul. As long as you're keeping a balance, there is no problem.

Also bear in mind there is a huge difference between Perception and Self. Just because you percieve something to be evil because they talk like a bad person or hang out with bad people, you most likely don't know the entire story. There is more depth to an evil character than just stealing something. Just because you've killed someone, doesn't mean your soul is impure. Otherwise, all Paladins would have an evil requirement.

There is, however, a problem if you ARE intentionally abusing the system by choosing CN and going in to kill City Guards or steal from them, or otherwise perform evil actions. The ward would smack you - hard. Then you'd be kicked out of the City.

My first reaction was to have an IC roleplay where the guilds of Silverymoon would ally to set up a ritual that would create some sort of magical backlash in the mind of all those who have abused their trust (with permanent reductions in Intelligence, loss of spellcasting abilities and knowledge, or both as consequences). But while thinking it through, I got stuck with the justification part: how could those evil characters (behaviour-wise evil, code-wise CN) bypass the wards the Silverymoon? That makes no sense, and therein lies the abuse.

Since I can't think up of any IC ways to deal with those OOC abuses, the only other solution I can think of is simply to delete/reset those characters.

I'm hoping this was an attempt at humor. If the person is intentionally abusing the system, it's one thing. Suspected abuse is another. I always suggest sitting the person down before you decide to stunt a character for its lifetime and make worthless all the time a person has taken into building said character.

I consider something like that to be just as abusive (if not, more so) than the actions taken by the character. There is plenty of ways around this. Most of them are diplomatic.

For instance, the guard tosses them out and tells them never again to visit Silverymoon or face their own brand of justice. If said player returns without extensive RP and an approved application, boom. Let's have an IC execution or something. Hell, make them stay in the prison with no timer.

Have them brainwashed, exorcised, etc. Make them completely good. If they fail to roleplay even that, then perhaps OOC considerations can be made.

I dunno, I'm just very much against excessive punishment. Especially when there is likely a chance that there was a misunderstanding.

[Mele]

While I think that a neutral follower of an evil deity is possible although really very uncommon and something that should be applied for, I think that associating often with followers of evil deities is plainly evil.

Taking a look at the dogma of most evil deities is enough to realize that someone who associates with people that live with those standards is anything but neutral.

Most "evil" deities dogmas range from neutral to evil. Those deities do not need applications. Evil deities that do not range from neutral to evil and stick to evil only, do not accept neutrals.

[Dalvyn]

Most "evil" deities dogmas range from neutral to evil. Those deities do not need applications. Evil deities that do not range from neutral to evil and stick to evil only, do not accept neutrals.

Following an evil deity would not be enough. I'm mostly talking about those wizards who pick up CN, go to Silverymoon to get guilded and learn all they can from the trainers, then spend all/most of their time with evil characters, helping them and performing evil deeds.

That also means that, now that they are guilded and have learnt all they can, cutting them off from Silverymoon won't bother them in the least.

[Selveem]

Dalvyn,

I've been accused of spending most/all of my time with evil characters on Selveem. Your company does not define you. Sure, they can impact you, but not the core of who you are.

This goes back to the perception versus self image. Selveem has performed evil deeds. But he's also performed (many) more good deeds. Does that make him evil? I personally don't think so.

What I would suggest is speaking to that character after they're done with whatever RP they're currently in and asking them what their intentions are for their character. Explain your concerns and ask them how they feel on the subject.

I would prefer a more positive approach. Explain to them that you, as a builder, feel used. Say that the area was built for good-aligned characters and that you feel they've made a work-around. Say that if they'd like to keep their abilities, they should affect the MUD in a positive manner - have them make a guild hall for evils.

Sure, there are other things that can be done. Maybe the trainer they once learned from hears of their exploits. He sends some of his students after them on occasion. It would be easy to make an item that they have to wear (can't be removed) that would occasionally make a lower level mob (or in more dire circumstances: multiple mobs) pop out at random occasions and attack them. It shouldn't be instantaneous death, though. This could be fairly deadly, especially in a place like Undermountain where you REALLY do need to rest and don't want to be bothered by a random group of people joining the fray at your expense.

[Mele]

Selveem doesn't use a guild in Silverymoon.

Irrelivant.

[Selveem]

Selveem doesn't use a guild in Silverymoon.

Irrelivant.

Wrong, actually.

The problem is not the joining of guilds so much as using the trainers in a way that Dalvyn feels is abusive. I happen to have a CN wizard, too, who is in the Invoker's guild. I don't know that he's done anything 'evil' aside from a rash temper and being a typical snobbish noble, but even that may be considered having abused Silverymoon's wards?

Even still, the behaviors they are talking about would affect all CN characters - not just wizards. Please don't dismiss my comment. It has plenty of credibility.

[Mele]

This is about CN behaving as evils and still using SM, not about how CN can be played and such and still not behaving as evil, wah de wah.

[Nysan]

Obvious abusers who make CN, like the wizard problem, should be deleted. They know what they are doing and know its wrong... drop a book shelf on them. This should not apply to the players that are merely playing what they are, Mele's bard example being a bright example. But to anyone ( imm-wise) watching a questionable character, which is an abuser or which is someone playing a unique RP aspect should be easy to detect so I do not see how it would be a problem.

However! If you are currently running a neutral that accesses Silverymoon, make notes on your character; stats, gear, ect... so if your character is deleted and you think it is unfair it is easier to email an application fo restoration with a complete record of character information. Save than sorry...

In short, they abuse code and they know it they should pay for it. They knew the risks of rule breaking when they made their not so neutral toon.

Edit: Again for the cheap seats: Characters are not deleted on a whim, far as I can tell. Dalvyn is referring to CN wizards that use Silverymoon then go torch a small village and the like. These kind of character deletion I am fully in support of, not CN wizards who play both sides against the middle like they should.

[Dalvyn]

Correct, Nysan. And thanks for the trust. The idea is indeed not to blindly delete characters on a whim.

If you are a CN wizard and think you might be concerned by this post, feel free to send a mail to the applications address to explain your point of view and why your character shouldn't be deleted.

[Kirkus]

Depending on the evil there are many ways to be fairly good and still follow said evil deity. Especially the Gods of Fury. Excepting Talos, most of the others; Umberlee, Auril, and Malar all do some good to some extent. Malarites have a hunt before winter where they donate all they get to the needy fuzzywuzzies, followers of Auril and Umberlee act as guides in their respective domains..... stuff like that.

Perhaps the guilds of Silverymoon can call some sort of urgent guild meeting and call them to account for their actions or to respond to rumors..... sounds like a pretty intense rp if you ask me. Depending on the outcome.... cast them as rogues, let them keep thier title as guild memeber.... many fun possabilities as you can see.

[Glim]

I know this might be a bit unconventional, but why not try and have a workaround? Remove the need for people to make neutral characters that play as evils just to get into Silverymoon?

Maybe something like a mob out the outskirts of Silverymoon that can get evils inside to a certain guild, but once inside that guild, you wouldn't be allowed to leave and go to the rest of the city?

I'm not trying to support code abuse, but just trying to remove the reason why people might do it.

[Dalvyn]

Depending on the evil there are many ways to be fairly good and still follow said evil deity. Especially the Gods of Fury. Excepting Talos, most of the others; Umberlee, Auril, and Malar all do some good to some extent. Malarites have a hunt before winter where they donate all they get to the needy fuzzywuzzies, followers of Auril and Umberlee act as guides in their respective domains..... stuff like that.

Perhaps the guilds of Silverymoon can call some sort of urgent guild meeting and call them to account for their actions or to respond to rumors..... sounds like a pretty intense rp if you ask me. Depending on the outcome.... cast them as rogues, let them keep thier title as guild memeber.... many fun possabilities as you can see.

As pointed above, I do not think that answering blatant OOC "cheating" with an IC response is appropriate.

[Dalvyn]

I know this might be a bit unconventional, but why not try and have a workaround? Remove the need for people to make neutral characters that play as evils just to get into Silverymoon?

Maybe something like a mob out the outskirts of Silverymoon that can get evils inside to a certain guild, but once inside that guild, you wouldn't be allowed to leave and go to the rest of the city?

I'm not trying to support code abuse, but just trying to remove the reason why people might do it.

There is no reason for people to do this, sorry ... I do not buy this.

It's always been very clear that anybody could apply to get their evil character guilded, with the relatively simple condition that they would ICly build a guild which will then be available for other evil characters. It's easy enough to get along with a builder and work on it. Choosing instead to make a CN character while intending to play it as evil from the start is cheating.

[Glim]

I agree completely that is is cheating, I wasn't arguing with your decision or saying it should not be done. People who create CN wizards to bypass the code to become invokers and then roleplaying them as evil are commiting code abuse.

My suggestion was only to prevent giving people a reason for doing it. A simple change such as this would be to the same effect, and in my opinion, much easier, than building an entirely different guild.

[Nedylene]

I'm with Dalvyn on this one.. creating a chaotic neutral character for access to a guild is lazy. Apply and see where it goes from there, do not abuse code