Treatment of Wizards

[Rhelian]

Wizards are by and large treated badly. Note that this is my view on things, and my opinion might differ from yours. Yet, as a player of a wizard for roughly two years on the mud, I have seen both what I would consider as proper and improper treatment of the wizard class by a large amount of players.

Wizards are a strange class to play. In the begining, your character will be weak. Small amount of hitpoints, little martial skill, and a handful of spells and barely more slots to memorise spells. Physical damage is low, while your magic damage from spells is moderately better, and increases as you gain more power. Of course, there are always people who find they can play any class and still get levels quickly, kill anything, and so forth, but they are deffinately a minority. Wizards are supposed to be hard to improve at lower levels. RP wise, they spend many years studying to master their first spell, and each time they add a new spell to their grimoire and are able to cast it successfully, it is like a small victory. Slowly but surely, they gain spells and power, either through an apprenticeship to a powerful wizard, or through a mage school in those areas that have such things. A lot of young wizards don't survive, either through accidents when trying to gain more spells and knowledge that leads to their death, or through mage duels where one dies and the other takes all their spellbooks and the like. Or, in a third option, they are killed because people fear them.

However, the power a wizard gains is not trivial. With higher end spells, a wizard can turn themself into any beast they desire, turn someone else into a fieldmouse if they so desire, rain great chunks of ice from the sky onto a large area, call powerful bolts of lightning to crash through their enemies, fly, breathe underwater, instantly transport themself to any point within their sight, or even thousands of miles to a preselected location, or drag someone thousands of miles to face them. They can summon monsters, animate skeletons, create magical constructs like iron golems, and kill, stun, and a variety of other things with but a word, or a symbol. They can open gates to other planes and bring forth the inhabitants, they can make themselves invisible, and cast layers of spells on that will protect them better than the best armour a fighter can buy, without it encumbering them. They can alter reality for a single person or a group of people, making them hear, see, smell, or think things that are not real are, and those that are real aren't. They can kill with illusions, they can call forth beams that destroy all objects, or disintegrate a person down to a fine pile of dust.

In a nutshell, wizards have tremendous and terrible power at their disposal.

People in general fear wizards, or are wary of them, because of this power. And it is real power - look to the Forgotten Realms campaign setting and you can see several kingdoms that are ruled by a magocracy. The Red Wizards of Thay rule their land, and have awesome power. The Arcane Brotherhood of Luskan is secretive and extremely powerful. Even the old civilisation of Netheril shows just how much power wizards can wield with study and aptitude, even if the power they drew on is less now than it was then.

That said, from what I have observed, there are a lot of players (and I agree with and applaud the collection of players act otherwise) who simply look at the spell list of a wizard guild on the website and immediate set their RP to being obnoxious and arrogant around wizards - not just their normal attitude, I firmly believe all should play their characters as they want - but arrogant along the lines of "Look at you, you have low hitpoints, I can kill you with three or four commands", and tend to boss wizards around and treat them like nothing more than a way to access the advantages of playing this class on the mud without having to make a wizard, ie: use a wizard for flying and stat boosters when they want them, and either dump the wizard when they don't need them anymore, or get annoyed if the wizard won't comply when they click their fingers.

Given the general attidue in D&D to wizards, and the power they can wield, that is what really irks me. Like disrespecting a priest will bring down the wrath of their god, and wizard disrespected can kill you as soon as look at you. A wizard unprepared is an easy target, but a wizard who is prepared is extremely hard to bring down. A wizard who is prepared, will not go toe to toe with a fighter, but will stay away, and as such removes the only advantage a fighter has - their expertise in melee combat. Flying up into the air and launching a few spells, or teleporting to a near by crag and opening the ground beneath the warrior, or even an entire armies feet is something a wizard of medium power is quite capable of accomplishing. However, on the mud, not all spells are coded -and they won't be, because most of them would be too hard to change and make work in a game like this, which is again simply my opinion. Without all wizards having finger of death, or power word kill, one of the main reasons to treat wizards with respect is missing, and personally I hope those spells do not come into the mud, as I am not a fan of instantkill spells or abilities in muds, although maybe if they worked the same way harm does, it wouldn't be too unbalancing.

Many times, I have seen a character and a wizard spar, or fight, only to have the character complain if the wizard uses their higher end spells, like disintegrate, or phantasmal killer, or a selection of other spells. It is along the same lines as asking a fighter not to use any weapons, or any of their special attacks, or anything after their first attack.

Back to my main point, though. In general, wizards are treated like spell-me-ups. They are by and large not treated with respect, and mostly their is no repercussions from these acts. In tabletop, or in FR, if you killed a wizard, they might be the apprentice of a more powerful wizard who would come and get revenge in a very quick and lethal manner, and this also adds to the reason they are respected. With priests, especially recently, they can call on their God if they are disrespected enough, and the god will pay the character a visit and explain they don't like such attitudes. Personally I would love to see an imm-run Magister show up from time to time when a lower level wizard is being treated poorly and help the other character learn that wizards deserve respect.

Please note, I am not suggesting everyone be fearful of wizards, or see them as walking death. I am simply pointing out that just because someone's seen a spell list and crunches numbers, does not give them a reason to treat wizards as second class citizens. It just really annoys me that wizards do not get treated as equals by most people, or given the respect they deserve, in the same vein tht people do not seem to be respecting priests. Not all wizards have the same spell list, and they might RP wise have access to spells that aren't coded, even if they don't ever mention them, you cannot assume a wizard does not have them.

Alright, this got to be rather long, but I would be interested in discussion and opinions from others on this matter, and ideas for how to redress the respect shortage for wizards.

[Isaldur]

Do like some of us bards did. Stop spelling people up who take you for granted. They'll soon learn that it's more of an inconvenience for them to not be able to fly everywhere they want then for you to perhaps be minus one worthless meat shield (And I say Meat shield with upmost respect, please don't hurt me Nivek).

I'd go as far as saying that you guys should be charging alot for your services. So what if the component is found free somewhere, charge them anyways because they need the service and you can provide it.

If they don't want ot pay, let'em walk. Too many people fly everywhere anyways as is.

[Balek]

I would love to see vastly expanded spell lists for wizards, especially magical defense spells (mantle, spell shields, etc) and evasion spells (dimension door, shadow door).

[Teepo]

I can't help but agree with Rhelian here. Posted pretty much everything I could say on the subject. I've noticed on a few of my wizards, there has been a big "stick up the nose" session around them.

Though I know some characters just dislike wizards and arcane magic, but the biggest reason is out of fear, like Rhelian said. I won't go repeating everything posted though, so never fear. I just want to say I pretty much agree.

[Rhelian]

I agree with Isaldur, and I have been doing that since about a year ago. Of course, I was surprised when people thought it was extortion to charge four platinum to identify an object, which is when I begun really noticing the appalling way wizards are treated. Wizards, in general, do not go and solo an area to get massive ammounts of coin. They instead charge for services to get their money, and to support themselves.

I think that people who feel chargined that they have to pay for what, ICly, is an extremely potent gift, ie: flight, need to sit down and really think things through.

Also, newbie and lowbie wizards shouldn't feel that they have to charge for services, but they shouldn't feel to do so is wrong either, which is the attitude many get when they suggest such a thing.

[Ilissa]

I agree completely with everything you say Rhelian. I have played Ilissa now for a few years, and while I have noted the attitude towards good wizards, it is twice as bad to those who look towards the darker arts.

Once a mage gets past the trying years of development (ie low levels) and begins to make a name for themselves, one thing is true. If you fight a magic user and EVER get close enough to said mage to stick a sword in them then most likely they have used all there spells up, and at the same time destroyed half the continent in the process. If you *somehow* survived that onslaught, you now have to get through their magic shield and contigency spells (there isn't a medium level wizard alive who does not have a contigency on them to teleport or gaseous form them safely away) not to mention the wands and other magic devices.

While I would love to see more spells coded in FK (I love variety), I would have hoped that, through RP, we could show what wizards are capable of, but in the recent colour thread, it has been ruled against us smoting spells that are not on our spell list.

I am personally sick having people walk into some good RP and ruin it by bullying down a wizard who has who knows what magic spells in place and active simply because they KNOW that such things are not coded. While I agree with Rhelian and Isaldur in the fact that more wizards should simply refuse to give spells out, or charge more for them, I cannot see this as a solution. I think that fighters will then turn around and say, fine....I will not go adventuring with you. And we all know that most mages need to party to go adventuring (unlike the fighting style calsses). What I would hope to see is some support from the IMM's like the support they have given Priests in the raise dead issue.
My suggestion would be this. Change ALL wizard spells to add the same modifier to damage they deal as to what the modifier is to the hitpoints (ie. Everyone seems to have double the amount of HP they should, so double spell damage) BUT this modifier only kicks in against PC's not MOB's (Still encourages multiplay in adventuring, but stops being being stupid enough to assume they can just kill a mage who does not comply to their wishes).

Ilissa

[Ivaldi]

One thing I must say is that people do tend to fly a lot more than seems realistic. I admit it's extremely convenient (especially for us smallfolk, trying to travel long distances on our short little legs ). In terms of RP, however, I think it's a little weird to fly at all while in a city. Even in a city where adventurers are a common sight, wouldn't someone flying down a busy street draw attention?

This may seem like a bit of an extreme viewpoint (I am certainly not suggesting that flying through cities should be banned or anything), but my point is that flight should really be seen as more of a rare gift--nowhere near the gift of coming back from the dead, but still rare.

I am still relatively new to FK, and have no high-level characters. Consequently when people ask this character for spells, those spells are generally beyond his ability. I should mention, however, that nobody has been rude about it--though that may just be because I haven't been around as long, or since I've been lucky enough to meet a lot of characters who had some reason to be naturally friendly to mine.

[Glim]

I have noticed this indeed, and for me it is probably because I do not charge for most of my spells. I probably should, but I dont. The only real problem with this I ever saw was people asking me to come halfway across Faerun to put a spell on them, which should be a gift. Indeed, I refuse and Dalvyn has gotten onto people for that. I suppose it is not as bad as it used to be since I stopped playing as much.

Also, I beleive that it would be much better giving a more diverified spell list for wizards. Like defensive spells and other such spells, ones that would be a bit more applicable in an actual battle. I have seen many a wizard get beat beat by a less experienced warrior merely because they did not have any defense. Priests have their armour, paladins and rangers do too, but wizards have only their spells.

[Cret]

As is common knowledge to most, Cret is not well liked by many. His demeaner has change drasticly from the happy, friendly gnome he started out as.

When there was no nice RP in Waterdeep People would frequently demand, not ask, a small gnome for spells.. Who was to know that this small gnome packed a wicked punch.. And could kill right quickly with small spells.. Perhaps its just me, but if you dont like someone.. remove them THough it could be just the malarite comming out in me. Not that I condone killing off everyone, but if they insist on demanding, and then tell you how they will kill you.. Show them different. And perhpas your character might take on a mean streak

[Solaghar]

In a lot of ways I understand what you're saying, but I also tend to be of the opinion that the basic logic of part of your argument is a little flawed. You are claiming that people should be more respectful and fearful of wizards simply because in real D&D, a wizard could cast all sorts of spells against a fighter that would render all of their skills obsolete. Because they don't have those spells here, people are not afraid of wizards and hence, they tend to not be respectful. You assume that once a wizard has reached mid-high level, they would be theoretically invulnerable because of spells like contingency, so on and so forth. While a well-prepared mage is definetely something to be afraid of, so is a well-prepared anything. In real D&D, the vast amount of magical objects, weapons, and skills are far more balanced, and hence, make everyone far more dangerous. You say a wizard shouldn't be afraid of a mere fighter or thief, but just because they're not spellcasters themselves, you assume that their abilities would be trivial compared to yours, limited to nothing more than shaking their swords at you while you fly around casting spells at them. You seem to me to be taking the argument that people know what spells a wizard can cast and hence tend not to be afraid of them and saying that is foolish, whereas in contrast, you automatically assume that you know all the skills and capabilities of all fighters and thieves and that they would not be a threat to you if you had all of the abilities and spells present in real D&D. You assume about them as much as they assume about you. In real D&D, it would indeed be more balanced, as any powerful character there is likely to have a number of powerful magical spells and items at their immediate disposal, and even more given time to prepare. If you want people on FK to fear you for things you don't have coded in, you may as well fear them for things that -they- don't have coded in, items, weapons, or other skills that could allow them to kill you as easily as you assume you could kill them.

Now, despite my argument, I agree with you that obviously quite a few people treat wizards in a manner that does not befit them. No one should be randomly walking up to people they have never met or barely know, looking at them and hence determining they are a mage, and asking them to cast spells. It's preposterous when you consider doing something like that in real life, akin to standing around begging for people to buy you things at stores or something equally absurd. And as for people saying that it isn't fair for a wizard to use high-level spells in a fight, that's equally ludicrous. If you were in a fight to the death or otherwise, you use what skills are available to you to ensure you don't die. If fighters don't like the idea that they can't beat everything they fight then that's their problem. I think the flaw however, is that you translate other people's stupidity and lack of roleplaying grace into a lack of fear of wizards. The two have nothing to do with one another, if you want to you can argue equally well that any high level character should be afraid of any other high level character, but as you said, you can't enforce other people's RP and tell them what and what not to be afraid of. That's up to them to determine what is appropriate. You shouldn't let it get you down when they claim you're not nice because you won't cast spells on them, or when they threaten you meaninglessly. You know what good RP is and you shouldn't let their opinions bother you, because in the end you will be rewarded for your excellent RP, while they will fade into obscurity, because let's face it, endlessly killing mobs is boring, and you need to learn how to RP to have any fun in a game like this in the long term.

[Ilissa]

You are claiming that people should be more respectful and fearful of wizards simply because in real D&D, a wizard could cast all sorts of spells against a fighter that would render all of their skills obsolete. Because they don't have those spells here, people are not afraid of wizards and hence, they tend to not be respectful. You assume that once a wizard has reached mid-high level, they would be theoretically invulnerable because of spells like contingency, so on and so forth..

I felt I best respond to clarify what I meant here. I do not assume that a mid-level wizard is invulnerable. I merely point out the fact that because a mid level wizard has the life expectancy of a rat in a room of hugry dwarves on the MUD, people tend to show them little respect and hence little fear as well, regardless of how good their RP is.

While a well-prepared mage is definetely something to be afraid of, so is a well-prepared anything. In real D&D, the vast amount of magical objects, weapons, and skills are far more balanced, and hence, make everyone far more dangerous.

That is very true, anyone well prepared is to be feared. But while you are contemplating all those magical items your fighter has, please remember one thing, 95% of them were most likely made by a mage....

You say a wizard shouldn't be afraid of a mere fighter or thief, but just because they're not spellcasters themselves, you assume that their abilities would be trivial compared to yours, limited to nothing more than shaking their swords at you while you fly around casting spells at them.

You are putting words in our mouthes here I think. I believe we are NOT saying we should be afraid of fighters or thieves or even priests. What I believe was been refered to was that a wizard does not fight toe-to-toe, which unfortunately the mud forces us to do. In previous discussion, it was suggested that a mage "fly" around in different rooms casting ranged spells at victims. This is of course quite silly, and given that exterior rooms are 30miles across, a great stretch of RP imagination (We are a RP mud first?). Everyone has there own powers and skills, and each are used in different ways. Because wizards cannot use theirs in a way that works inside the code, they are not shown some of the respect they deserve. And I don't mean fear wise in terms of Player Killing, but I mean in that wizards are often only viewed as "enhancer" charecters, in the same way that priests are often view as only "raise dead" or "heal wound" charecters.

You seem to me to be taking the argument that people know what spells a wizard can cast and hence tend not to be afraid of them and saying that is foolish, whereas in contrast, you automatically assume that you know all the skills and capabilities of all fighters and thieves and that they would not be a threat to you if you had all of the abilities and spells present in real D&D. You assume about them as much as they assume about you.

One of the reasons magic users are feared in the D&D world is that only they truly understand their art. How often do you really get to see what a mage does? How often do you get to see their labs? Their spellcasting? How often as a non-mage do you get to see anything other than the results of their spells (regardless of the spell)? This is why in the books and on paper mages are treated with a certain awe. Not only this but because as I said before, most magic items, or magic constructs, even things that aid a population are the work of a magic user. That being said how can I assume that I know anything about a warrior? Quite simple really. There are 100 times more of them then there are mages. Watch the sparring matches for a while, watch armies in battle. Mages are notorius for scrying, or hanging around invisible to learn. We know what most of you can and can't do, and how you do it. This does not mean we fear you less, but it does gives us the right I believe to make some assumptions in our RP. Sure, we all know that people can have some hidden tricks. Being over confident gets many people killed, but, since my charecter has long watched warriors fight, they know one thing - A warrior can walk naked into my lab (we'll ignore the copious amounts of wards and symbols that would be around) and threaten me with a rusty spoon (We'll ignore the possible constructs, guardians an anything else you can think of), and I know that I am surely dead, not because my charecter has no spells that are "powerful" and not because anyones RP is poor, but because, regardless of the great build-up RP, that warrior has a shield on their arm.

If you want people on FK to fear you for things you don't have coded in, you may as well fear them for things that -they- don't have coded in, items, weapons, or other skills that could allow them to kill you as easily as you assume you could kill them.

The point I think you are missing is that such items for any non-wizard to have, is a rare thing, but spells are what mages do. Every mage has access to every spell, this is a true fact in D&D, despite the fact it is not so on the MUD. Does ever warrior have access to every magic item in D&D? The simple answer is no, despite the fact that everyone does on the mud. That being said, the whole thread is not about us asking for more spells, or "power" items. I believe its more to do with the fact that because magic users are so hard to code in a realistic manner compared to other classes, that some respect (and in some cases fear) is deserved in the normal RP aspect, as it is shown in the resource material for FR. Sure, this might not extend to all magic users, but for some like Rhelian, Tayza or Myn, it should almost be a given, yet it is not, even for them.

When I first started, my RP was shocking, and in almost 3 years, it probably hasn't improved much, but like so many others, I am still learning. Sometimes though, we all forget certain aspects of the world we RP in because we are so focused on our charecters and sometimes I have found that I am so focused on a certain aspect of my charecters RP I even forget another aspect. While the later is something I can work on, the first is something that, like with attitude towards priests and dieties, is something that I believe everyone needs occassionaly to be reminded of.

I apologise if I sound harsh, cynical or whiney, as none of that is my intent. I feel passionate about this as I am passionate about my charecter (despite my flaws in Rp'ing her). I am hoping that through expression of my opinion (which is my view only based on my experiences) that others will understand where we are coming from and perhaps their RP will improve, as I hope mine will after trying to take on board what others say.

Finally - have fun
Ilissa

[Jiraaza]

The point I think you are missing is that such items for any non-wizard to have, is a rare thing, but spells are what mages do. Every mage has access to every spell, this is a true fact in D&D, despite the fact it is not so on the MUD. Does ever warrior have access to every magic item in D&D? The simple answer is no, despite the fact that everyone does on the mud. That being said, the whole thread is not about us asking for more spells, or "power" items. I believe its more to do with the fact that because magic users are so hard to code in a realistic manner compared to other classes, that some respect (and in some cases fear) is deserved in the normal RP aspect, as it is shown in the resource material for FR. Sure, this might not extend to all magic users, but for some like Rhelian, Tayza or Myn, it should almost be a given, yet it is not, even for them.

A few things to add to this, every mage does not have access to every spell in D&D, while every spell may exist, there are several limitations
on learning spells. One being the most obvious is if you are a specialized
mage. Spells are precious pieces of knowledge locked away in ancient scrolls and texts, hidden from prying eyes of all, even those who search for them, spells must be researched, hunted for, gathered, horded. From strange places and sources as varied as libraries, ancient scrolls, lich owned spellbooks, summoning planar creatures, or demeaning yourself as another wizard's apprentice. And even after you find it, there is a chance your intellect is unable to grasp it's intricacies, making the spell meaningless and useless to you.

I agree that RPing that wizards are feared and to be beheld in wonder and awe is something that should be done, in most cases that is. But you have to remember, every PC on the mud is an adventurer of some sort. And often suffer from been there done that syndrome. After slaying ancient dragons, laying undead to rest, fighting hordes of demons, and many other things... Why would you cower in fear from a wandering mage you never met? Respect should be shown to all PCs if it within your character's RP to do so. And none should go around asking wandering mages to cast spells on them (because they might just get what they want, but not what they intended, heh)

I guess what I am saying, if you treat any other character badly, mages, priests, so forth, you get the same in return. Isn't that basically the golden rule though?

-Jiraaza